50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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That isn't a problem to me, brother! In the Gospels, Jesus and his disciples are *still under the Law!* That means that at that time only Israel are God's People still. The Church hasn't even been born yet. Of course the international Church isn't in Matt 24, Mark 13 or Dan 9 and 12! These things are focused largely only on Israel.
The Church is *not* absent in the book of Revelation, although Pretribbers claim so. The book is specifically written to the Church. It's all about the Church. The Church is persecuted by the Antichrist. The language sometimes is OT, and uses those kinds of terms. So people get a false conception that somehow the Dispensations of changed, and that in the book of Revelation the Church is gone and now things have switched back to OT times and only Israel. That's certainly against what is said, namely that *Christians* are being persecuted by Antichrist, and not just *Israel!*
Boy, you really sound like you're open to change?
The Church is *not* absent in the book of Revelation, although Pretribbers claim so. The book is specifically written to the Church. It's all about the Church. The Church is persecuted by the Antichrist. The language sometimes is OT, and uses those kinds of terms. So people get a false conception that somehow the Dispensations of changed, and that in the book of Revelation the Church is gone and now things have switched back to OT times and only Israel. That's certainly against what is said, namely that *Christians* are being persecuted by Antichrist, and not just *Israel!*
Boy, you really sound like you're open to change?
Furthermore there is no preaching by the Church in chapters 6 and beyond. The task of preaching once again falls to Israelites, who have been recommissioned to this particular task.
I am certainly NOT open to change from the truth of the pre-trib rapture to error.
"""But that certainly doesn't mean he will do this world-wide, nor does it mean he will succeed in eliminating all believers."""
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
I DID say lost but in the sense that you've lost your way in terms of understanding the Scripture. Definitely not lost in the sense of losing your salvation. It is impossible to lose your salvation.
My apologies if you took it the wrong way. I will make sure my wording is more careful in the future.
My apologies if you took it the wrong way. I will make sure my wording is more careful in the future.
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Rather, your hearing is off.
So you're a brit, huh? We have our customs, you have yours.
I have asked the pertinent questions.
That's what your reply looked like.
What is your problem anyway? I ask straightforward questions.
You made reference to a temple but not Jerusalem. So where do you see the mention of Jerusalem?
In 2 Thess CH 2, there is no mention of Jerusalem.
Regarding a temple, we have this:
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
v.3 is a clear reference to the end time Beast #1, aka the a/c. Then, in v.4 Paul prophesies about this Beast setting himself up in God's temple.
Why do you think Paul was referring to the current temple of his day? Do you think the Bible's beast #1 has already appeared, way back in 70 AD?
That would be a ridiculous idea.
So you're a brit, huh? We have our customs, you have yours.
I have asked the pertinent questions.
That's what your reply looked like.
What is your problem anyway? I ask straightforward questions.
You made reference to a temple but not Jerusalem. So where do you see the mention of Jerusalem?
In 2 Thess CH 2, there is no mention of Jerusalem.
Regarding a temple, we have this:
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
v.3 is a clear reference to the end time Beast #1, aka the a/c. Then, in v.4 Paul prophesies about this Beast setting himself up in God's temple.
Why do you think Paul was referring to the current temple of his day? Do you think the Bible's beast #1 has already appeared, way back in 70 AD?
That would be a ridiculous idea.
Well, let me introduce you to Revelation 22:16 then.
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
In black and white. In fact, the Church bookends the whole book of Revelation.
The first 3 chapters are directly to the churches. And then in the last chapter we have v.16. If the church isn't involved in any way during the Trib, it seems rather silly for John to give "this testimony for the churches".
Wrong again. The 144,000 saved Jews are still part of the Bride. Why, you ask? Because the Bible says this:
Col 3:11 - Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
The 144,000 Jews are evangelists, just as the 2 Witnesses will be.
"Recommissioned" you say? Are you suggesting that they will preach something other than what Paul preached?
The error is that pretrib ideas have no verses that support the claim.
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
In black and white. In fact, the Church bookends the whole book of Revelation.
The first 3 chapters are directly to the churches. And then in the last chapter we have v.16. If the church isn't involved in any way during the Trib, it seems rather silly for John to give "this testimony for the churches".
Wrong again. The 144,000 saved Jews are still part of the Bride. Why, you ask? Because the Bible says this:
Col 3:11 - Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
The 144,000 Jews are evangelists, just as the 2 Witnesses will be.
"Recommissioned" you say? Are you suggesting that they will preach something other than what Paul preached?
The error is that pretrib ideas have no verses that support the claim.
I am flattered that you apparently thought that I could read minds. But no, I'm as fallen a human being as every Brit is.
So no, I had no idea because my computer doesn't translate your typing into sounds that I can hear.
And since I don't know your customs and such, no doubt I'll be stepping on your toes all over the place. My excuse is that I'm an American.
Then you rudely said this:
How you're able to hear sounds from my posts is nothing short of amazing. Or, just maybe, you are only "hearing things".
So no, I had no idea because my computer doesn't translate your typing into sounds that I can hear.
And since I don't know your customs and such, no doubt I'll be stepping on your toes all over the place. My excuse is that I'm an American.
Then you rudely said this:
How you're able to hear sounds from my posts is nothing short of amazing. Or, just maybe, you are only "hearing things".
OldSage said:
Lol. You need a long cold douche in scripture
And he had the audacity to say this about what I posted:
"'Tell ya what' is actually quite offensive in British English - maybe less so on your side of the pond."
I guess he has no clue about what a douche is in America.
Lol. You need a long cold douche in scripture
And he had the audacity to say this about what I posted:
"'Tell ya what' is actually quite offensive in British English - maybe less so on your side of the pond."
I guess he has no clue about what a douche is in America.
That is misrepresentative of the fact that *Christians* are in fact mentioned. So you think that when Christians are mentioned and not the word "church" that that means somehow the church doesn't exist in the reign of Antichrist? So who is being attacked by Antichrist-- believers in Christ who are Jews who are Christians and yet not really part of the Church?
Yes, it will take the Holy Spirit to convince you otherwise. But if you don't even allow the Holy Spirit to correct your errant beliefs, then you'll have to live and die with the consequences. You'll have limited your Christian life, and thus reduce your effectiveness as a Christian witness. Your witness to others will be, "I love the Lord up to the point where He contradicts my beliefs."
Yes, it will take the Holy Spirit to convince you otherwise. But if you don't even allow the Holy Spirit to correct your errant beliefs, then you'll have to live and die with the consequences. You'll have limited your Christian life, and thus reduce your effectiveness as a Christian witness. Your witness to others will be, "I love the Lord up to the point where He contradicts my beliefs."
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The main reason I firmly Believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture, is the Holy Spirit convinced me in my HEART that it is absolutely TRUE.
Secondary REASON is this VERSE, telling people who lived at the TIME OF CHRIST they NEED to KEEP READY:
Mat 25:13 (LITV)
Therefore, watch, for you do not know the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man comes.
Mat 25:13 (CEV) So, my disciples, always be ready! You don't know the day or the time when all this will happen.
Mat 25:13 (ERV) "So always be ready. You don't know the day or the time when the Son of Man will come.
Matthew 25:13 (NIV)
13 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.
Matthew 25:13 (NCV)
13 “So always be ready, because you don’t know the day or the hour the Son of Man will come.
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I think earlier you said "why would you want to read it like that?"
I suppose it begs the question of how Paul's words to the Thessalonikans should be construed,
as the advice of an overseer, or as prophecy. They are both really aren't they?
But even as prophecy why wouldn't one simply look for a fulfillment?
Hence first century AD.
But I think your question refers to something else.
The idea of the Coming of The Lord at this time
doesn't fit with what we've been taught. But as I said earlier,
you have to differentiate the appearing of the Lord to the Church, which
only happens twice, from the comings of the Lord in judgment, which
are not numerically qualified. Certain ideas are so ingrained we
probably have never even evaluated them. 2 Thess 1 actually refers to the
revelation (apokalyptica) and the face (prosopon) of the Lord incidentally.
I am not all in on these ideas by the way, they just seem at this point the most
reasonable interpretation to me.
I suppose it begs the question of how Paul's words to the Thessalonikans should be construed,
as the advice of an overseer, or as prophecy. They are both really aren't they?
But even as prophecy why wouldn't one simply look for a fulfillment?
Hence first century AD.
But I think your question refers to something else.
The idea of the Coming of The Lord at this time
doesn't fit with what we've been taught. But as I said earlier,
you have to differentiate the appearing of the Lord to the Church, which
only happens twice, from the comings of the Lord in judgment, which
are not numerically qualified. Certain ideas are so ingrained we
probably have never even evaluated them. 2 Thess 1 actually refers to the
revelation (apokalyptica) and the face (prosopon) of the Lord incidentally.
I am not all in on these ideas by the way, they just seem at this point the most
reasonable interpretation to me.
post-trib
pre-wrath
pre-millennial
2nd coming; no 3rd coming
mid-trib was ~1000 years ago
The Great Tribulation started circa 70 A.D. and will end at some point in the future. The worst is yet to come.
There is no 7-year 'prophetic' End Times period.
There will be no 7-year treaty between any antichrist and Israel (as being in accordance with bible prophecy).
There is a 3.5-year 'prophetic' End Times period - we call it the Two Witnesses. And, it is post-trib.
If you pay attention (reading my posts), it will not take you long to know what I believe. And, it should be pretty clear on the 'Study' pages of my web site.
Here is the answer to your request - "and then some"... :
2 Thessalonians 2:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (Second Coming of Christ), and by our gathering together unto him (Rapture), 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (Second Coming of Christ) is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (Second Coming of Christ) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (Second Coming of Christ):
two 'comings':
~ redemption / the cross / as savior - past
~ judgment / flaming fire / king-of-kings - future
two 'resurrections':
~ with rapture 'event' - future
~ Judgment Day - future
pre-wrath
pre-millennial
2nd coming; no 3rd coming
mid-trib was ~1000 years ago
The Great Tribulation started circa 70 A.D. and will end at some point in the future. The worst is yet to come.
There is no 7-year 'prophetic' End Times period.
There will be no 7-year treaty between any antichrist and Israel (as being in accordance with bible prophecy).
There is a 3.5-year 'prophetic' End Times period - we call it the Two Witnesses. And, it is post-trib.
If you pay attention (reading my posts), it will not take you long to know what I believe. And, it should be pretty clear on the 'Study' pages of my web site.
Here is the answer to your request - "and then some"... :
2 Thessalonians 2:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (Second Coming of Christ), and by our gathering together unto him (Rapture), 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (Second Coming of Christ) is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (Second Coming of Christ) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (Second Coming of Christ):
two 'comings':
~ redemption / the cross / as savior - past
~ judgment / flaming fire / king-of-kings - future
two 'resurrections':
~ with rapture 'event' - future
~ Judgment Day - future
cv5 said:
The truth is that the Church is found nowhere in the book of revelation after chapter 5. You will not find the term Church anywhere in chapter 6 and beyond.
I showed the other poster that the book of Revelation is actually bookended by the church. ch 1-3 are directly for the church and in the last chapter, 22:16 mentions "the churches". So the poster is completely off base with his remarks.
The truth is that the Church is found nowhere in the book of revelation after chapter 5. You will not find the term Church anywhere in chapter 6 and beyond.
I showed the other poster that the book of Revelation is actually bookended by the church. ch 1-3 are directly for the church and in the last chapter, 22:16 mentions "the churches". So the poster is completely off base with his remarks.
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