Do catholics worship God or the pope?

[Jackson123]

Paul was in Rome after Peter died there. Peter in 62 Paul in 65

How do you know the year?

Act 24
27 When two years had passed, Felix was succeeded by Porcius Festus, but because Felix wanted to grant a favor to the Jews, he left Paul in prison.

Paul went to Rome when festus begin to reign replace Felix, and base on Jew historian, festus in power start AD 59, let say took 3 months so Paul in r
Ome about ad 59 to ad ad 60

 

[TheLearner]

How about catholic lie and say clement say peter in tome but clement never say

"Here the Greek grammar is clear: ἀσπάζεται ὑμᾶς (sends greetings to y’all) ἡ ἐν βαβυλῶνι (she who is in/at Babylon) συνεκλεκτὴ (she elected/chosen together) καὶ Μᾶρκος (and also Mark) ὁ υἱός μου (my son). Peter, writing the letter, and therefore sending the greetings, is obviously with “she who is at Babylon,” and also with Mark, “[his] son.” She elected is the Church, always personified as a woman; and Peter is with the Church. But the Church where? The ancient city of Babylon had been in ruins for centuries. Peter must have been speaking in a cryptic metaphor. The Babylon of the Bible was the capital of a vast, powerful empire, and stood at the height of sin and excess. Where else could that be in Peter’s day but Rome? "
...
"
Regarding St. Peter, St. Clement did not speak to the specifics of Peter’s fate, but wrote (1 Clement 5–6, trans. Kirsopp Lake, in The Apostolic Fathers, vol. I, Loeb Classical Library, London and New York: William Heinemann, 1919):

But, to cease from the examples of old time, let us come to those who contended in the days nearest to us; let us take the noble examples of our own generation. Through jealousy and envy the greatest and most righteous pillars of the Church were persecuted and contended unto death. Let us set before our eyes the good apostles: Peter, who because of unrighteous jealousy suffered not one or two but many trials, and having thus given his testimony (μαρτυρήσας) went to the glorious place which was his due. Through jealousy and strife Paul showed the way to the prize of endurance; seven times he was in bonds, he was exiled, he was stoned, he was a herald both in the East and in the West, he gained the noble fame of his faith, he taught righteousness to all the world, and when he had reached the limits of the West he gave his testimony (μαρτυρήσας) before the rulers, and thus passed from the world and was taken up into the Holy Place,―the greatest example of endurance. To these men with their holy lives was gathered a great multitude of the chosen, who were the victims of jealousy and offered among us (ἐν ἡμῖν) the fairest example in their endurance under many indignities and tortures."
http://lonelypilgrim.com/2012/05/27/early-testimonies-to-st-peters-ministry-in-rome/
https://lexundria.com/i_clem/5/lk

 

[TheLearner]

How do you know the year?

Act 24
27 When two years had passed, Felix was succeeded by Porcius Festus, but because Felix wanted to grant a favor to the Jews, he left Paul in prison.

Paul went to Rome when festus begin to reign replace Felix, and base on Jew historian, festus in power start AD 59, let say took 3 months so Paul in r
Ome about ad 59 to ad ad 60

THE ARREST OF PAUL AND JOURNEY TO ROME (Act 21:18-28:31)
The counsel of James and elders of the church in Jerusalem (Act 21:18-25)
The arrest of Paul in the temple (Act 21:26-40)
The defense by Paul to the Jewish mob (Act 22:1-30)
The defense by Paul before the Sanhedrin council (Act 23:1-10)
The plot against Paul and deliverance to Felix (Act 23:11-35)
The trial before Felix; procrastination by Felix (Act 24:1-27)
The appearance before Festus and appeal to Caesar (Act 25:1-12)
The defense before Festus and King Agrippa (Act 25:13-26:32)
The journey to Rome; shipwreck along the way (Act 27:1-28:16)
The explanation of Paul to the leaders of the Jews in Rome (Act 28:17-29)
The waiting in Rome for two years, yet preaching and teaching (Act 28:30-31)
Review Questions for the Introduction

and yet it took paul five to six years to get to rome to die.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/study/eo/Act/Act000.cfm

59–60 Appears before Festus and appeals to Caesar; voyage to Rome

60–62 Under house arrest at Rome; writes letters to Philippians, Ephesians, Colossians, and Philemon

62–64 Released; journeys to Spain?; writes letters to Timothy and Titus

64 Returns to Rome; martyred
https://www.christianitytoday.com/h...and-his-times-christian-history-timeline.html

 

[TheLearner]

read to here I gave the links to how I know the dates.

 

[kaylagrl]

You should be proud of your humility.

So the woman you correct and the man, not so much. lol Why am I not surprised? Here's how it went.

I said lets stop bashing "name here" church and start reaching the lost. You know, those outside the church doors?
Cast your eyes back dear newbie and you will see every church name has been bashed at one time or another. Now you explain to me how that saved one lost sinner, I'll wait.

The poster, who doesn't even know the Bible for themselves said flippantly back at me "Let us know what you decide to do yourself to reach out to the lost"

And your bright answer to this is "You should be proud of your humility.?!" because I answered that I had been in ministry? Wow! You don't know me. You don't know my testimony, you don't know the trails, prays, tears and travail that went along with ministry. You don't have a sweet clue about any of it. The poster was judging me, so I answered him with the truth, that I had been in ministry. How does that have anything to do with humility. Is it wrong to say I was in evangelism for a long period of time? Would you be so disrespectful to a preacher who said he had preached in several churches for years and had open air services? Would you tell him to humble himself?! No you would not!! About done with you keyboard evangelists. Your self righteous and immature to boot.

 

[DeanM]

So the woman you correct and the man, not so much. lol Why am I not surprised? Here's how it went.

I said lets stop bashing "name here" church and start reaching the lost. You know, those outside the church doors?
Cast your eyes back dear newbie and you will see every church name has been bashed at one time or another. Now you explain to me how that saved one lost sinner, I'll wait.

The poster, who doesn't even know the Bible for themselves said flippantly back at me "Let us know what you decide to do yourself to reach out to the lost"

And your bright answer to this is "You should be proud of your humility.?!" because I answered that I had been in ministry? Wow! You don't know me. You don't know my testimony, you don't know the trails, prays, tears and travail that went along with ministry. You don't have a sweet clue about any of it. The poster was judging me, so I answered him with the truth, that I had been in ministry. How does that have anything to do with humility. Is it wrong to say I was in evangelism for a long period of time? Would you be so disrespectful to a preacher who said he had preached in several churches for years and had open air services? Would you tell him to humble himself?! No you would not!! About done with you keyboard evangelists. Your self righteous and immature to boot.

I dont care who it is that feels the need to bang their drum, at least twice today that I know of. If I cared enough to search, it would be interesting to see how many times this has been copy/pasted here. But feel free to continue to chastise others and dont forget your copy/paste when someone has the gall to disagree with you.

 

[Lafftur]

As the title says: do catholics worship God or the pope?

Do they allow the pope to come between them and God?

Just STOP! Your post causes the reader to focus on the denomination of Catholicism which can ONLY stir up strife and cause division and arguments.

As believers IN CHRIST, our marching orders are… TO LIFT UP CHRIST and He will draw all people to Himself.

Jesus Christ is the ONLY SAVIOR, there is NO salvation apart from Him. Let go of ALL denominations, ALL religions and grab a hold of Jesus Christ…He is The ONLY SAVIOR, amen.

 

[Jackson123]

Peter, who because of unrighteous jealousy suffered not one or two but many trials,

It didn't say peter in Rome or being murder.

 

[Athanasius377]

It should be pointed out that claiming that early church fathers are Catholic is admitting that the early church was in fact Catholic.
Since those educated enough to make copies of the NT would be those same Church Fathers, one is admitting that the NT is also Catholic.

I would say the ECF are catholic small “c”. They are not Roman Catholic. Then again they aren’t Anglican either. They say things that neither one of us agree with. If you read I Clement he refers himself as one of several elders which is not how the modern Holy See views Clement. I firmly believe every Christian should read the ECF. They are important eyewitnesses to the early church warts and all. I don’t believe there was ever a “pristine” primitive church. There were always heretics and false teaching to contend with. Which is why the ECF are so important because they faced these issues long before us and their wisdom and even failings should help guide us today. I affirm sola scriptura but deny nuda scriptura. As did all of the magisterial reformers.

 

[Jackson123]

60–62 Under house arrest at Rome; writes letters to Philippians, Ephesians, Colossians, and Philemon

So you admitt Paul first come to Rome in ad 60 where according catholic version history peter also bishop in Rome in the same time
Why do you think peter not do like Christian do at that time, every time Paul come to a town where there is Christian, they make welcome party.

 

[TheLearner]

So you admitt Paul first come to Rome in ad 60 where according catholic version history peter also bishop in Rome in the same time
Why do you think peter not do like Christian do at that time, every time Paul come to a town where there is Christian, they make welcome party.

Paul was under house arrest. Peter was busy.

Prove otherwise.

"After Alexander’s death, however, the extent to which the empire was fought over saw the city’s inhabitants flee, and Babylon steadily fell into ruin." https://www.historyextra.com/period...ylonia-tower-babel-hanging-gardens-hammurabi/

1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

https://www.worldhistory.org/timeline/babylon/

"
539 bce
A Persian army captures Babylon and brings it into the empire of Cyrus the Great
528 bce
The Phoenician cities, liberated from Babylonian rule, willingly accept inclusion in the Persian empire
323 bce
Alexander the Great, still only 33, dies in Babylon following a banquet
312 bce
Seleucia is founded as a new capital on the Tigris, eclipsing Babylon and recycling much of the older city as building material
c. 750
Karaism, relying on scripture rather than rabbinical commentary, develops among the Jewish community in Babylon
"
https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780191736049.timeline.0001

• Peter says “The Church here in Babylon ... sends you her greeting ...” (1 Pet. 5:13). Babylon was a code word for Rome used in many early Christian letters and in the Bible. Under the persecution it makes sense that Peter would not want to alert authorities that he was in Rome.
• Many of the Early Church fathers talk about Peter being in Rome, while none of them say he was not in Rome.
• The archaeological evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of Peter's presence and death in Rome.

https://www.catholicbridge.com/catholic/did-peter-die-in-rome.php

In 539 B.C., less than a century after its founding, the legendary Persian king Cyrus the Great conquered Babylon. The fall of Babylon was complete when the empire came under Persian control.
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/plaintexthistories.asp?historyid=aa10
https://www.history.com/topics/ancient-middle-east/babylonia

 

[TheLearner]

I would say the ECF are catholic small “c”. They are not Roman Catholic. Then again they aren’t Anglican either. They say things that neither one of us agree with. If you read I Clement he refers himself as one of several elders which is not how the modern Holy See views Clement. I firmly believe every Christian should read the ECF. They are important eyewitnesses to the early church warts and all. I don’t believe there was ever a “pristine” primitive church. There were always heretics and false teaching to contend with. Which is why the ECF are so important because they faced these issues long before us and their wisdom and even failings should help guide us today. I affirm sola scriptura but deny nuda scriptura. As did all of the magisterial reformers.

I am not Catholic. I am only showing from ECF that Paul and Peter were in Rome at sometime.

The best source, book I can think of it The Development of the Papacy by burn-Murdoch.

 

[TheLearner]

It didn't say peter in Rome or being murder.

That is part of a quote of information. Both quotes are the same source which is why I used the three dots.

....


"Here the Greek grammar is clear: ἀσπάζεται ὑμᾶς (sends greetings to y’all) ἡ ἐν βαβυλῶνι (she who is in/at Babylon) συνεκλεκτὴ (she elected/chosen together) καὶ Μᾶρκος (and also Mark) ὁ υἱός μου (my son). Peter, writing the letter, and therefore sending the greetings, is obviously with “she who is at Babylon,” and also with Mark, “[his] son.” She elected is the Church, always personified as a woman; and Peter is with the Church. But the Church where? The ancient city of Babylon had been in ruins for centuries. Peter must have been speaking in a cryptic metaphor. The Babylon of the Bible was the capital of a vast, powerful empire, and stood at the height of sin and excess. Where else could that be in Peter’s day but Rome? "
...
"
Regarding St. Peter, St. Clement did not speak to the specifics of Peter’s fate, but wrote (1 Clement 5–6, trans. Kirsopp Lake, in The Apostolic Fathers, vol. I, Loeb Classical Library, London and New York: William Heinemann, 1919):

But, to cease from the examples of old time, let us come to those who contended in the days nearest to us; let us take the noble examples of our own generation. Through jealousy and envy the greatest and most righteous pillars of the Church were persecuted and contended unto death. Let us set before our eyes the good apostles: Peter, who because of unrighteous jealousy suffered not one or two but many trials, and having thus given his testimony (μαρτυρήσας) went to the glorious place which was his due. Through jealousy and strife Paul showed the way to the prize of endurance; seven times he was in bonds, he was exiled, he was stoned, he was a herald both in the East and in the West, he gained the noble fame of his faith, he taught righteousness to all the world, and when he had reached the limits of the West he gave his testimony (μαρτυρήσας) before the rulers, and thus passed from the world and was taken up into the Holy Place,―the greatest example of endurance. To these men with their holy lives was gathered a great multitude of the chosen, who were the victims of jealousy and offered among us (ἐν ἡμῖν) the fairest example in their endurance under many indignities and tortures."
http://lonelypilgrim.com/2012/05/27/early-testimonies-to-st-peters-ministry-in-rome/
https://lexundria.com/i_clem/5/lk

 

[TheLearner]

So the woman you correct and the man, not so much. lol Why am I not surprised? Here's how it went.

I said lets stop bashing "name here" church and start reaching the lost. You know, those outside the church doors?
Cast your eyes back dear newbie and you will see every church name has been bashed at one time or another. Now you explain to me how that saved one lost sinner, I'll wait.

The poster, who doesn't even know the Bible for themselves said flippantly back at me "Let us know what you decide to do yourself to reach out to the lost"

And your bright answer to this is "You should be proud of your humility.?!" because I answered that I had been in ministry? Wow! You don't know me. You don't know my testimony, you don't know the trails, prays, tears and travail that went along with ministry. You don't have a sweet clue about any of it. The poster was judging me, so I answered him with the truth, that I had been in ministry. How does that have anything to do with humility. Is it wrong to say I was in evangelism for a long period of time? Would you be so disrespectful to a preacher who said he had preached in several churches for years and had open air services? Would you tell him to humble himself?! No you would not!! About done with you keyboard evangelists. Your self righteous and immature to boot.

We humans have amazing abilities like having a discussion, share Jesus and chew gum within minutes of each other. People who read my posts often email me questions about Jesus. [email protected]

 

[Athanasius377]

I am not Catholic. I am only showing from ECF that Paul and Peter were in Rome at sometime.

The best source, book I can think of it The Development of the Papacy by burn-Murdoch.

I'm sorry, I misread the post.

And yes, that is an excellent volume.

 

[kaylagrl]

We humans have amazing abilities like having a discussion, share Jesus and chew gum within minutes of each other. People who read my posts often email me questions about Jesus. [email protected]

I just get really annoyed by people who come on CC and tear down churches and pastors, they are keyboard preachers. No one does anything right, no one knows the Bible or has the special knowledge that they do. My point was how is any of this reaching the lost? It isn't. Then they smack back with "what have you done" and when you tell them they say you're bragging". The last time I checked the Bible says to humble yourselves, not others. smh Most of them don't have a church that they attend, why, because they can't stand sitting under someone elses ministry or being corrected. And I'm just a mite tired of the keyboard preachers that come and go here. They really are getting annoying.

 

[Jackson123]

Peter must have been speaking in a cryptic metaphor. The Babylon of the Bible was the capital of a vast, powerful empire, and stood at the height of sin and excess. Where else could that be in Peter’s day but Rome? "

This is big speculation.
According to Josephus a Jews historian, Jews start call Rome as Babylon after the years AD 70 after Rome destroy Jerusalem.According to catholic version history, peter die in AD 67. Time line not fit

Peter, who because of unrighteous jealousy suffered not one or two but many trials, and having thus given his testimony (μαρτυρήσας) went to the glorious place which was his due.

This was what clement say am I correct?
it doesn't say peter at Rome et all, just say he suffer from jealousy, how in the world it use to prove peter in rome

 

[TheLearner]

I'm sorry, I misread the post.

And yes, that is an excellent volume.

It is all good Friend.

 

[TheLearner]

This is big speculation.
According to Josephus a Jews historian, Jews start call Rome as Babylon after the years AD 70 after Rome destroy Jerusalem.According to catholic version history, peter die in AD 67. Time line not fit


This was what clement say am I correct?
it doesn't say peter at Rome et all, just say he suffer from jealousy, how in the world it use to prove peter in rome

read the full article at the link

 

[TheLearner]

I just get really annoyed by people who come on CC and tear down churches and pastors, they are keyboard preachers. No one does anything right, no one knows the Bible or has the special knowledge that they do. My point was how is any of this reaching the lost? It isn't. Then they smack back with "what have you done" and when you tell them they say you're bragging". The last time I checked the Bible says to humble yourselves, not others. smh Most of them don't have a church that they attend, why, because they can't stand sitting under someone elses ministry or being corrected. And I'm just a mite tired of the keyboard preachers that come and go here. They really are getting annoying.

ok I don't see what that has to do with the discussion.