50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Which verse shows that resurrected/raptured believefrs are taken back to the Father's house?

if you can't show any verse, you can't make that claim. The Bible would say it if will occur. Why not?

I have been.

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." - John 14:1-3

No it isn't. Here comes some teaching. I hope you are paying attention.

When Jesus spoke the words of Jn 14:1-3 He hadn't died or been resurrected yet. So when He said "I am going there to preprare a place for you" He was speaking about WHEN he was raised from the dead and then return to the Father. Real simple.

Now, this is important: The next sentence doesn't refer to a rapture and taking anyone to heaven. Read it carefully.

So, what does He say? He says He will go to heaven to prepare a place for them (because they all would die physically and go to heaven). iow, He was guaranteeing to them a place in heaven when they die. That's all.

and what follows is clear: He says He will come back (Second Advent) and "take you to be with Me" (nothing about being taken to heaven as so many assume).

You still don't understand:

Those who have read my post above know that I understand more than you, apparently.

-Daniels 70 weeks prophecy
-The mystery of the Church
-The fullness of the Gentiles
-the DOTL
-The marriage symbolism of the last supper
-The specific nature and identity of the Bride of Christ, and Jesus usage of marriage symbolism

Go ahead and explain how any of this list proves or shows a pretrib rapture.

A full and complete understanding of these topics and presto you've got a pre-trib rapture, earthly millennial kingdom, reconstitution of Israel, all biblical covenants and prophecies are completely fulfilled. And maximum glory to God and the Lamb.

Don't forget to include all that assumption, presumption and guessing to mix in.

What pretribbers need is a verse showing Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven. Do you have any? No, you don't.

However if you DO NOT understand these topics.......you've got hapless posters running around in circles like a dog chasing its tail. For hundreds of pages.

That's actually a good analogy for the pretibbers making claims of Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven when there are NO verses that make that claim.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

A HUGE reason it is not:

Theosis is entry into the kingdom

It is not a mass event, each has their individual time

It is true that a "SNATCH [/harpazo] TOGETHER [/at the same time] WITH" concept cannot survive in the thoughts of one who believes Paul is referring to something that transpires over the course of some time (like, on an individual basis).


I take it you do not believe in [what is commonly called] "our RAPTURE" event? (1Th4:17 "harpazo / harpagēsometha ")

Revelation is about events around 73 and the Temple
The number stands for Nero
Michael is on the throne, the one who is like God
22:1-5 is beautiful

I take it you believe "the beginning of birth PANGS" took place prior to and LEADING UP TO the events surrounding 70ad??
[despite Luke 21:12 "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE..."]

 

[FreeGrace2]

The following sentences were from my post, but show up as what Abs posted. Seems he needs to figure out how to post properly.

It "would have to"? Says you. The words "that day" is a clear reference to a single day, not a long period of time. And even the DotL begins on a single day.

So you are just misunderstanding the passage.

That's funny, said the guy who jumps to a conclusion about Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven when there are NO VERSES that say that.

You err to claim that "that day" refers to a 7 year period. Even a 7 year period BEGINS on a single day.

It's just amazing the lengths some will go to try to keep their opinions alive. "that day" refers to the very day that Jesus comes back. And "that day" WILL NOT OCCUR UNTIL the rebellion, which is the Trib occurs and the a/c is revealed.

So what? The DotL begins when Christ returns at the Second Advent. He comes as King of kings, Lord of lords. You'd better believe it will be the day of the Lord when He comes. But there is NOTHING in the Trib that can be viewed as the DotL. He's not even on earth during the Trib. It is when He returns that HIS DAY begins. And will continue on into eternity, as King of kings and Lord of lords.

Your claim above is why you err! The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him, is not the same as 'the day of the Lord.' For the day of the Lord follows the gathering of the church.[/QUOTE]
The error is yours. All that is included in the DotL BEGINS when Christ returns as King and Lord. You cannot prove otherwise.

His DAY begins when He returns and rules. That's what Paul was writing about.
"""No one argues that there will be a rapture of living believers. The Bible is clear WHEN that will occur, which is AFTER the Trib."""

Oh good. We have a taker.
Please do post all those verses.

In 30 years of debating postribbers they have never offered one.
I will wait.

Of course, again. 2 Thess 2:1 proves when the gathering occurs. When the Lord comes back. The Second Advent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is overwhelming proof of only one viable and plausable position.....a pretrib rapture as Jesus depicted over and over.

It's hilarious since there are NO verses that show Jesus taking ANYONE to heaven after receiving their imperishable body.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We have destroyed any hope of doctrine of a church going through the gt.

Again, hilarious. The whole book is bookended by references to the churches. Ch 1-3 and 22:16.

Of course all of it is for the churches.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Christians already sleeping don't go through the tribulation. Neither do living Christians. Both groups receive resurrection bodies before the tribulation happens.

Could SOMEBODY please provide a verse that makes this point?

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you're thinking that the false claim that Paul is warning about in v.2, that its contents are (in effect saying): "that Christ Himself is already here / is already present [perfect indicative ('Action completed at a specific point of time in Past'...)]" ??

Not even close. Paul's point is clear. v.1 cannot happen until the rebellion occurs and the man doomed to destruction is revealed.

That specifically places the rapture (gathering) at the Second Advent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

.....still waiting for a postrib rapture verse.

One must actually open their eyes and ears. When will you?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I can't find any pretrib rapture verses so how can I find the only part of the absolute certainty of a pretrib rapture.

You have nailed the whole issue regarding pretrib rapture! There aren't any such verses, so the pretribbers have to make up a lot of stuff and use verses that say NOTHING about a rapture.

I'd think if the proof was overwhelming, then I'd be overwhelmed with proof... but being overwhelming with suggestions of proof is only really being overwhelmed with suggestions.

Have you read 2 Thess 2:1-3? How does it read for you?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I really don't get why we'd need to exit the vicinity of God's wrath when it is not directed toward us in the first place. I mean, if two can be side by side, in the same field, same bed... and be selectively 'raptured,' 'taken,' or 'left'...as pertaining to the better outcome, then why wouldn't this be the case in the context of wrath?

Another good point!

I like to point to the Jews in Egypt during the 10 plagues. The Jews STAYED in Egypt while God poured out His judgment on Egypt yet the Jews were completely spared from them all.

I particularly like these verses:

Ex 9:26 - The only place it did not hail was the land of Goshen, where the Israelites were.

Ex 10:23 - No one could see anyone else or move about for three days. Yet all the Israelites had light in the places where they lived.

God is MORE than able to keep His faithful believers from His wrath being poured out on the earth, just as He did for the Jews in Egypt.

But the pretribbers don't seem to think He is able to do that.

Rev 3:10 - Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

God kept the Jews "from the hour of trial" that was upon Egypt. He certainly can do the same during the Trib.

btw, notice who will be spared the hour of trial during the Trib: those who have "endured patiently". Those who haven't will no doubt succumb to the wrath and die and go to heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
How about v.3? "that day" refers to v.1 and "the coming of our Lord". He comes on a specific singular day.
By "passage" I take that as v.1-3. So yes. v.3 refers back to v.1.
Regardless of how one understands the DofL in v.2, it begins on a singular day, regardless of how long it lasts.
From v.2, I understand that the DotL begins when Christ returns, on "that day".

I'm asking, where is another mention of a "rapture" concept (in this overall context), aside from v.1's "our episynagoges unto Him" ? (in your view)

How is this question relevant to what I posted above?

Also, what does it matter where "another mention" of a rapture concept occurs in "this context"? Please answer why the question is relevant and then define what you mean by "overall context".

 

[FreeGrace2]

Pretrib VERSES are the declaration of the pretrib CONCEPT.

Yet not even the "concept" of Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven is found in ANY rapture verse, or any other verse either.

This CONCEPT can only be fully understood in light of the entirety of the OT prophecies and the NT revelation of the mystery of the Church.

How about just claiming that a pretrib rapture is found from Genesis through Revelation, because that's just about what you are insinuating. Why don't you just say "it's in the Bible", as if it is.

But you still have NO VERSES that show Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven. It doesn't occur.

Furthermore it must be understood in light of the clear statements AND ACTIONS Christ made during His first advent tenure on the earth.

He said NOTHING about a pretrib rapture.

All you've got is insinuation and assumption, or better, presumption.

Alternatively you can simply accept the pre-trib rapture on faith alone. You can't go wrong with that either because it is in fact true.

OK, based on WHAT faith, exactly? By that, I mean based on who's word; man or God's?

If God said it, where is the Scripture? If man said it, it's not biblical.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

FreeGrace2 said:
How about v.3? "that day" refers to v.1 and "the coming of our Lord". He comes on a specific singular day.
By "passage" I take that as v.1-3. So yes. v.3 refers back to v.1.
Regardless of how one understands the DofL in v.2, it begins on a singular day, regardless of how long it lasts.
From v.2, I understand that the DotL begins when Christ returns, on "that day".

How is this question relevant to what I posted above?

Also, what does it matter where "another mention" of a rapture concept occurs in "this context"? Please answer why the question is relevant and then define what you mean by "overall context".

For one thing, it is a point you previously accused "pre-tribbers" of doing (which we do not do--you do.)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Not even close. Paul's point is clear. v.1 cannot happen until the rebellion occurs and the man doomed to destruction is revealed.

Disagree that this is Paul's point for his bringing up a false claim's content in v.2.

Rather, "the day of the Lord" (the thing/time-period that the false claim says "IS PRESENT") NOT [is], "if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed...".

Once he is "revealed" (and that's at the START of the "7 yrs") the DOTL will then also "BE PRESENT". It's not present without the presence of the man of sin.

 

[cv5]

Root cause of that is reading the Bible entirely different, especially Revelation. Pre-tribbers usually maintain that Revelation is 100% chronological from front to back but that isn't possible.

There are numerous literary devices used in Revelation including repetition of parallel teachings that are reworded and repackaged using different imagery. There's also a lot of foreshadowing and figurative language that can be easily misunderstood.

It can be proven that the 6th seal in Revelation 6 describes the return of Jesus described in Matthew 24:29 (signs in the heavens - moon, sun, stars) and the day of God's wrath beginning.

I've talked with at least two pre-tribbers about this and they reject it. Not surprised.

I never said that the book of Revelation is totally and completely chronological. It isn't. There are descriptive passages and chapters also......summary chapters if you will. However much of it IS chronological. Purposefully.

So no..........you've got that all wrong.

 

[cv5]

Take all this with a grain of salt - a BIG grain.

Walvoord was known as a Dispensationalist during his ministry of the mid-20th century. Right away a red flag should appear in front of your eyes. Dispensationalism is based upon the works of John Nelson Darby, a known consort of witches. But there's more.....

Dispensationalism is only the 19th century version of Roman Catholic FUTURISM, published by Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera in the late 16th century. RCC Futurism was designed to obstruct the Protestant Reformation and Dispensationalism was a thinly veiled attempt to disguise demonic doctrine promoted as gospel. The Roman Catholic church is identified in the book of Revelation as the anti-Christ BEAST system of the End Times. Thus both Dispensationalism and Futurism work together to obfuscate God's desire to let truth be known to the saints of earth. They combine to form the Great Deception spoken of in Revelation.

but there's more to consider.....

The chief assertion of Dispensationalism & Futurism is the anti-Semitic theme of the tribulation.

As a review, the Tribulation is basically stated as a time of great difficulty for the earth in general and Jews in particular. The purpose of this time of trouble is supposed to serve as a goad for Jews to convert to Christianity - to join a church to be saved. The RCC has been consistent with this bloody attitude for two thousand years and the protestant church today marches in lock-step with this heinous hate speech. According to some spin offs of the theme, traveling murderers will criss-cross the earth with sharpened blades to sever the heads of Jews who refuse to convert. I'm making generalizations here, but the basic theme is definitely repeated in written word as well as sermons throughout the land.

Would any sane Jew believe this threat and accept Christ especially when civilizations have been trying to enslave and murder them for four thousand years? I think not, yet Christians buy this gimmick and buy books magazines and taped sermons by the ton.

At its root, both Walvoord and his idea of the Tribulation was born of the devil. It should be considered for the trash it really is.

Is Jesus Christ the author of love or the leader of a pack of head-cutting anti-Semites who demand Jews join the church or die? Are we to believe the language set before us or not?

This is the real question before us.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

You haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about. Jews don't become Christians during the 70th week of Daniel tribulation. There are no Christians around during the tribulation. The Church age has ended at the rapture. Pre-trib. There will never be another Christian past the point of the rapture.

Where are you getting these crazy ideas? From another guy hollering from the choir loft?

 

[Mem]

That day will not come unt

You have nailed the whole issue regarding pretrib rapture! There aren't any such verses, so the pretribbers have to make up a lot of stuff and use verses that say NOTHING about a rapture.


Have you read 2 Thess 2:1-3? How does it read for you?

Now concerning Presently speaking of the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him The Lord's return to rapture all that are His to Himself, we ask you, brothers, We urge all y'all, christians, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, not to let any form of scam claiming to be authored by us upset or frighten you alleging that the Day of the Lord 's coming and our being raptured together to Him has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it i.e., the Day of the LORD will not come until the rebellion occurs Christianity is rejected and the beast is worshipped and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—the antichrist who brings it all about is revealed by the coming of the LORD'(s brightness shining the whole entire truth on all His creation so that neither the antichrist nor the beast can continue to deceive the nations for a thousand years).

I avoided parentheses, until the end there.
How'd I do?

 

[Mem]

Another good point!

I like to point to the Jews in Egypt during the 10 plagues. The Jews STAYED in Egypt while God poured out His judgment on Egypt yet the Jews were completely spared from them all.

I particularly like these verses:

Ex 9:26 - The only place it did not hail was the land of Goshen, where the Israelites were.

Ex 10:23 - No one could see anyone else or move about for three days. Yet all the Israelites had light in the places where they lived.

God is MORE than able to keep His faithful believers from His wrath being poured out on the earth, just as He did for the Jews in Egypt.

But the pretribbers don't seem to think He is able to do that.

Rev 3:10 - Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

God kept the Jews "from the hour of trial" that was upon Egypt. He certainly can do the same during the Trib.

btw, notice who will be spared the hour of trial during the Trib: those who have "endured patiently". Those who haven't will no doubt succumb to the wrath and die and go to heaven.

YES, the Jews had to endure the plagues while being kept from (the effect of) them. And what is there to endure patiently (keep faith and hope joyfully despite) if its not tribulation?

 

[ewq1938]

YES, the Jews had to endure the plagues while being kept from (the effect of) them. And what is there to endure patiently (keep faith and hope joyfully despite) if its not tribulation?

Also the entire point of the Great Tribulation is persecution of the church!

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13 shows the beginning of that tribulation period.

The Great Tribulation mentioned in Matthew and Revelation:

The olivet discourse (Matthew):

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

False Christ's are warned about.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

These are Christians being delivered up not Jews. Hated because of Christ's name! This proves that Christ is talking about Christians when he says "you".

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


The gospel of the kingdom is about Christ and is delivered by Christians.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

"Ye" are Christians.

So, the AoD is going to affect "all the world" and Christians are the targets! Christians are persecuted and murdered for the testimony of Christ and because they carry his name.

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

"Ye" is still the same people, Christians.


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The elect are Christians not Jews per the context of this passage.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Again, a warning about false Christs given to "you" which are Christians.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Another reference to false Christ's and the Christian elect.


Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

You=Christians and yet again another false Christ reference. There is a false Christ coming to deceive Christians and those not deceived will be delivered up, persecuted and killed.

Nothing about Jews at all because Jews are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


And here is the second coming. The gathering of the elect by angels is another way to speak of the rapture and the rapture is only for Christians. Again, nothing about Jews in the religion of Judaism at all because they are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


The ones persecuted are Christians!


Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The ones persecuted are Christians!


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Christians are Satan's target!


Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The saints are Christians not Jews. The tribulation is war on Christianity.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The witness of Jesus means they are Christians. The ones persecuted are Christians!

 

[GaryA]

It can be proven that the 6th seal in Revelation 6 describes the return of Jesus described in Matthew 24:29 (signs in the heavens - moon, sun, stars) and the day of God's wrath beginning.

Yes indeed!

I am so glad somebody else can see that!

The 6th seal represents a span of time-and-events from Trumpet 1 to Vial 7 - with the Resurrection and Rapture occurring after the Trumpet Events and before the Wrath of God (Vials).