50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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Couple things
1...the white horseman kicks off the trib.. He kills all without the mark. That takes prewrath off the table.
2... ""....until he is taken out of the way"". Whether it is the church or the Holy Spirit it also hurts the prewrath position.
Also " the time of the gentiles ending" factors in because the 144k are sealed early in in the trib. Which speaks for the trib(all7 years) being a jewish only dynamic...with the lost thrown into the mix
1...the white horseman kicks off the trib.. He kills all without the mark. That takes prewrath off the table.
2... ""....until he is taken out of the way"". Whether it is the church or the Holy Spirit it also hurts the prewrath position.
Also " the time of the gentiles ending" factors in because the 144k are sealed early in in the trib. Which speaks for the trib(all7 years) being a jewish only dynamic...with the lost thrown into the mix
Here is mat 16:18 from the recieved text
amhn
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G281
Hebrew
AMEN
verily
legw
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G3004
vi Pres Act 1 Sg
I-AM-sayING
umin
humin
G5213
pp 2 Dat Pl
to-YOU(p)
to-ye
osa
hosa
G3745
pk Acc Pl n
as-much-as
ean
ean
G1437
Cond
IF-EVER
dhshte
dEsEte
G1210
vs Aor Act 2 Pl
YE-SHOULD-BE-BINDING
epi
epi
G1909
Prep
ON
ths
tEs
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t_ Gen Sg f
THE
ghs
gEs
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n_ Gen Sg f
LAND
earth
Verily I say unto you,
Whatsoever ye shall bind on
earth shall be bound in heaven:
and whatsoever ye shall loose
on earth shall be loosed in
heaven.
18
estai
estai
G2071
vi Fut vxx 3 Sg
SHALL-BE
dedemena
dedemena
G1210
vp Perf Pas Nom Pl n
HAVING-been-BOUND
Strictly speaking of the authority of the believer.
Invoking the prophetic component into ministry and prayer.
IOW...WE DECLARE THIS AND THAT
amhn
amEn
G281
Hebrew
AMEN
verily
legw
legO
G3004
vi Pres Act 1 Sg
I-AM-sayING
umin
humin
G5213
pp 2 Dat Pl
to-YOU(p)
to-ye
osa
hosa
G3745
pk Acc Pl n
as-much-as
ean
ean
G1437
Cond
IF-EVER
dhshte
dEsEte
G1210
vs Aor Act 2 Pl
YE-SHOULD-BE-BINDING
epi
epi
G1909
Prep
ON
ths
tEs
G3588
t_ Gen Sg f
THE
ghs
gEs
G1093
n_ Gen Sg f
LAND
earth
Verily I say unto you,
Whatsoever ye shall bind on
earth shall be bound in heaven:
and whatsoever ye shall loose
on earth shall be loosed in
heaven.
18
estai
estai
G2071
vi Fut vxx 3 Sg
SHALL-BE
dedemena
dedemena
G1210
vp Perf Pas Nom Pl n
HAVING-been-BOUND
Strictly speaking of the authority of the believer.
Invoking the prophetic component into ministry and prayer.
IOW...WE DECLARE THIS AND THAT
Ok i agree with all of 2 thes. The ac revealed for what? A day? A month? And after revealed takes power?
That is harmonious to pretrib rapture.
Ok so nothing in 2 thes even remotely pointing to a postrib rapture..in fact it hurts that theory
So lets see if daniel 7 supports postrib rapture.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Ok the beast is burned after the mil. ...no smoking gun there.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Jesus comes back and sets up his kingdom
Ok no problem...no smoking posttrib rapture gun there either.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom
Ok we see the ac prevails just as i have ALWAYS DECLARED ( all die refusing the mark)
All saints martyred, and jews ushered to safety
And yes he comes back with his saints as i have clearly declared that we judge alongside Jesus in the mil.
I honestly see zero in either of your verses.
What exactly are you referring to?
That is harmonious to pretrib rapture.
Ok so nothing in 2 thes even remotely pointing to a postrib rapture..in fact it hurts that theory
So lets see if daniel 7 supports postrib rapture.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Ok the beast is burned after the mil. ...no smoking gun there.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Jesus comes back and sets up his kingdom
Ok no problem...no smoking posttrib rapture gun there either.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom
Ok we see the ac prevails just as i have ALWAYS DECLARED ( all die refusing the mark)
All saints martyred, and jews ushered to safety
And yes he comes back with his saints as i have clearly declared that we judge alongside Jesus in the mil.
I honestly see zero in either of your verses.
What exactly are you referring to?
Rev 6-
1 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!”
2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.
So, "bent on conquest" doesn't mean "kils all without the mark". To be "bent on" something, means to want to do something, and in the case of the rider on the white horse, it is conquest, not killing. There is a difference.
It's the next horse and rider who are involved in killing:
4Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other. To him was given a large sword.
And, this rider doesn't do any killing. But he "makes peoople kill each other", pretty much like what we see in the USA since last summer. The crime, and esp murder rate in this country is skyrocketing.
And still, it doesn't say all who don't take the mark are killed. You're getting way ahead of yourself.
It's neither the church or Spirit. It's moral government. Such as the United Kingdom was in the 1900th Century and the USA was up until the current administration.
It's moral government that keeps evil government at bay. But that has now been removed.
1 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!”
2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.
So, "bent on conquest" doesn't mean "kils all without the mark". To be "bent on" something, means to want to do something, and in the case of the rider on the white horse, it is conquest, not killing. There is a difference.
It's the next horse and rider who are involved in killing:
4Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other. To him was given a large sword.
And, this rider doesn't do any killing. But he "makes peoople kill each other", pretty much like what we see in the USA since last summer. The crime, and esp murder rate in this country is skyrocketing.
And still, it doesn't say all who don't take the mark are killed. You're getting way ahead of yourself.
It's neither the church or Spirit. It's moral government. Such as the United Kingdom was in the 1900th Century and the USA was up until the current administration.
It's moral government that keeps evil government at bay. But that has now been removed.
Clearly BEFORE the Second Advent AND the rapture. That is exactly what 2 Thess 2:1-3 is about.
So, no, you cannot agree with "all of 2 Thess" while being in a pretrib rapture. Impossible.
Well, apparently you are not (or are unable to) reading 2 Thess 2:1 with any understanding.
By the time that Christ returns at the Second Advent, the VAST MAJORITY of believers from both the OT and NT will ALREADY be in heaven, awaiting their resurrection. And they come with Jesus and meet all the living believers in the clouds in the air and THEN receive their resurrection bodies per 1 Thess 4:17.
So, no, you cannot agree with "all of 2 Thess" while being in a pretrib rapture. Impossible.
Well, apparently you are not (or are unable to) reading 2 Thess 2:1 with any understanding.
By the time that Christ returns at the Second Advent, the VAST MAJORITY of believers from both the OT and NT will ALREADY be in heaven, awaiting their resurrection. And they come with Jesus and meet all the living believers in the clouds in the air and THEN receive their resurrection bodies per 1 Thess 4:17.
The white horseman in Revelation 6:2 is antichrist, and this begins false peace and security and the wrath of Satan, not the wrath of God.
The 144,000 are proclaiming the gospel over the entire world. Jews and gentiles are being saved, and the church is growing and being strengthened. Jew and gentile followers of Jesus (members of the church) are being martyred all over the world for refusing to take the mark of, and for refusing to worship, the beast.
The 144,000 are proclaiming the gospel over the entire world. Jews and gentiles are being saved, and the church is growing and being strengthened. Jew and gentile followers of Jesus (members of the church) are being martyred all over the world for refusing to take the mark of, and for refusing to worship, the beast.
I dont see anywhere the 144k preaching the gospel.
The church is not growing because all refusing the mark are martyred.
1) it says power is given him to overcome the saints.
2 ) it says they overcame by the blood of the lamb and word of their testimony (martyrdom)....and loved not their lives unto death.
IOW THEY ALL DIED.
It goes to purpose.
The time of the gentiles complete, and jacobs trouble begins.
The rapture is almost simultaneous to the ac being revealed.
The church is not growing because all refusing the mark are martyred.
1) it says power is given him to overcome the saints.
2 ) it says they overcame by the blood of the lamb and word of their testimony (martyrdom)....and loved not their lives unto death.
IOW THEY ALL DIED.
It goes to purpose.
The time of the gentiles complete, and jacobs trouble begins.
The rapture is almost simultaneous to the ac being revealed.
Ok, YEs, ty:^ I think I've got it now. You read vv. 1-3 as Paul saying, "touching on the rapture (my idea of it), don't listen to anyone claiming that we said the DOTL has come, because the DOTL (your idea of it) will not come until the rapture (which is not the DOTL) has happened and the man of sin is revealed.
where I'm showing that Paul is not starting an entirely new Subject in chapter 2 from that of what he'd already been speaking of in the previous chapter ( @FreeGrace2 also). But I find two significant issues with how many people interpret chpt 1 (and consequently parts of chpt 2):
[I've pointed out...]
--wherever the phrases "the day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" are used (throughout scripture) in the SAME CONTEXTS (i.e. in close proximity), they are referring to the SAME TIME PERIOD; and such is the case also of their use here in THESE TWO CHPTS (1 & 2);
--they are not referring merely to "a singular 24-hr day," but a TIME PERIOD;
--this is true also of what 2 Thess chapter 1 verses 7-10 is speaking to, [that SAME EXACT] TIME PERIOD that will end at a certain point in time (i.e. the TRIB YEARS unfolding upon the earth, that will end with His Second Coming to the earth), aka the "IN THE NIGHT" ASPECT OF "the day of the Lord" TIME PERIOD... which Subject CARRIES OVER INTO Paul's chpt 2 continuing of the SAME TOPIC! He has NOT "switched gears"... he is still covering what he's already covered [ / described] in the FIRST CHPT...
The problem enters when ppl do not recognize he's referring to a TIME PERIOD (esp in vv.7-10), and mistakenly think he is referring merely to "a singular 24-hr day / point-in-time." He's not.
Here are 10 posts (there may have been more) in this thread, where I cover the subject of chpt 1 (esp vv.7-10), A TIME PERIOD, which is the SAME THING Paul carries over into his chpt 2. Consider:
1)--Post #2928 (pg 147) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4575193
2)--Post #2969 (pg 149) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4575353
[and...]
3)--Post #47 (pg 3), top-/mid-section of that post - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4530073
4)--Post #564 (pg 29) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4534570
5)--Post #1756 (pg 88) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4544342
6)--Post #1763 (pg 89) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4544449
7)--Post #2418, continuation of Post #2417 (pg 121) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4554106
8)--Post #2974 (pg 149) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4575368
9)--Post #3004 (pg 151) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4575549
10)--Post #4450 (pg 223) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4589131
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The 144,000 are sealed in order to serve God on earth. They must be evangelizing. If not, then what are they doing?
The church does grow in number during the tribulation period via the 144,000 evangelizing unsaved people all over the world.
No Christian will take the mark of the beast, and the Bible does not say all that refuse the mark of the beast will be martyred, which implies some Christians will escape martyrdom.
The church does grow in number during the tribulation period via the 144,000 evangelizing unsaved people all over the world.
No Christian will take the mark of the beast, and the Bible does not say all that refuse the mark of the beast will be martyred, which implies some Christians will escape martyrdom.
2 Thes 2 is based on Dan 7, where the Man of Sin reigns for a time, times, and half a time, aka 3.5 years. The book of Revelation confirms this time period by referring to it as 42 months, or as 1260 days. This is the blueprint. The Man of Sin reigns for 3.5 years, attacking God's people. But then the Son of Man comes down from heaven, to defeat the Man of Sin, to save his people, and to establish his eternal Kingdom. To overcomplicate this simple blueprint is what has caused all of the trouble, I beiieve.
2 Thes 2 says that Christ cannot come for his people until *after* the Man of Sin is revealed, which we know extends for 3.5 years. Then, after the Battle of Armageddon has developed and commences, the Son of Man returns from heaven, to defeat the man "doomed to destruction," and to set up his eternal Kingdom. This is entirely Postrib!
The Beast is destroyed at the coming of the Kingdom of God, when the Son of Man comes down from heaven. This is *not* after the Millennium.
If the Son of Man comes to defeat the Man of Sin, to save his people, and to establish his eternal Kingdom, this is a Postrib context.
The Dispensational sense of a removal of the international Church and a return to an exclusively Jewish people of God is not Scriptural, nor is it even reasonable. God will not return to the Old Covenant, nor will He return to an exclusive Israel. And when the Man of Sin attempts to destroy God's People, this may be talked about as a universal policy within his Kingdom, but is hardly indicative of exhaustive annihilation of all God's people. Obviously, some escape, some are beyond his reach or outside of his Kingdom, and some have to remain alive unto the coming of the Lord.
This has never been a problem for Postribs, that Christ returns *with his saints.* The dead are already with him, and will return with him. Those who are alive and remain until his coming will be caught up in a second of time, to return with the departed saints.
I've tried to explain above. Keep in mind that I've been Pretrib before. But I doubt that you've ever been Postrib. So it may be a little difficult for you to see things the way a Postrib does. I'm trying to help you see things the way I do, whether you agree or not.
2 Thes 2 says that Christ cannot come for his people until *after* the Man of Sin is revealed, which we know extends for 3.5 years. Then, after the Battle of Armageddon has developed and commences, the Son of Man returns from heaven, to defeat the man "doomed to destruction," and to set up his eternal Kingdom. This is entirely Postrib!
The Beast is destroyed at the coming of the Kingdom of God, when the Son of Man comes down from heaven. This is *not* after the Millennium.
If the Son of Man comes to defeat the Man of Sin, to save his people, and to establish his eternal Kingdom, this is a Postrib context.
The Dispensational sense of a removal of the international Church and a return to an exclusively Jewish people of God is not Scriptural, nor is it even reasonable. God will not return to the Old Covenant, nor will He return to an exclusive Israel. And when the Man of Sin attempts to destroy God's People, this may be talked about as a universal policy within his Kingdom, but is hardly indicative of exhaustive annihilation of all God's people. Obviously, some escape, some are beyond his reach or outside of his Kingdom, and some have to remain alive unto the coming of the Lord.
This has never been a problem for Postribs, that Christ returns *with his saints.* The dead are already with him, and will return with him. Those who are alive and remain until his coming will be caught up in a second of time, to return with the departed saints.
I've tried to explain above. Keep in mind that I've been Pretrib before. But I doubt that you've ever been Postrib. So it may be a little difficult for you to see things the way a Postrib does. I'm trying to help you see things the way I do, whether you agree or not.
Actually, I think the problem is that you try to maneuver some alien sense of a Day of the Lord and transfer it into 2 Thes 2, where a 24 hour day is *in context.* To thus excise a foreign concept of a "day" as a "time period" from elsewhere and place it, awkwardly, into 2 Thes 2, confuses the passage and is an illegitimate way of interpreting, when the actual context suggests only a 24 hour day.
This smacks of an interpretive fallacy, wherein a word or phrase is thought to be applied uniformly from context to context, instead of allowing the context itself to determine how that word or phrase is being applied. After all, that's how words and phrases work. They can be used in a technical sense uniformly in several different locations, or they can obtain their own unique meaning, where the new context justifies that particular use.
The Day of the Lord does have a technical eschatological use. But it by no means does not obtain that use uniformly only because every place it speaks of eschatological things the same phrase is used. The Day of the Lord can be used as an extended time period and used in an eschatological sense for the Millennium. Or the same phrase can be used in an eschatological sense for the 24 hour day in which Christ returns. The *context* determines how it is to be used, and you are trying to bypass that.
Your error, and I see you do this all the time, is forcing a migration of common terms into places without regard for the different contexts, and for the different meanings that may imply. In this case, our sense of the "day of the Lord" in 2 Thes 2 is in context a reference to the literal day Christ comes back for his Church, and does not reference the Millennium at all, nor the 3.5 years of Antichrist's rule, nor any length of time beyond the day of Christ's coming itself. Sorry, this is, I believe, where you err.
This smacks of an interpretive fallacy, wherein a word or phrase is thought to be applied uniformly from context to context, instead of allowing the context itself to determine how that word or phrase is being applied. After all, that's how words and phrases work. They can be used in a technical sense uniformly in several different locations, or they can obtain their own unique meaning, where the new context justifies that particular use.
The Day of the Lord does have a technical eschatological use. But it by no means does not obtain that use uniformly only because every place it speaks of eschatological things the same phrase is used. The Day of the Lord can be used as an extended time period and used in an eschatological sense for the Millennium. Or the same phrase can be used in an eschatological sense for the 24 hour day in which Christ returns. The *context* determines how it is to be used, and you are trying to bypass that.
Your error, and I see you do this all the time, is forcing a migration of common terms into places without regard for the different contexts, and for the different meanings that may imply. In this case, our sense of the "day of the Lord" in 2 Thes 2 is in context a reference to the literal day Christ comes back for his Church, and does not reference the Millennium at all, nor the 3.5 years of Antichrist's rule, nor any length of time beyond the day of Christ's coming itself. Sorry, this is, I believe, where you err.
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The content of the "false claim" Paul is drawing attention to in 2Th2:2, is: "that the day of the Lord IS ALREADY HERE / IS ALREADY PRESENT [PERFECT indicative - 'PERFECT TENSE - Action completed at a SPECIFIC POINT of TIME in PAST, with results CONTINUING INTO THE PRESENT']"
...THAT ^ (use of the "PERFECT INDICATIVE," where Paul is referring to the CONTENT OF THE FALSE CLAIM, v.2) is not speaking merely of a point in time, and not merely of the 24-hr day of Christ's return to the earth. But of a SPANS OF TIME, that STARTED at some point IN THE PAST and its effects are CONTINUING ON into the PRESENT.
That's ^ the substance of the "false claim" (per the grammar Paul himself uses in verse 2, about that subject--a distinct subject from his v.1 subject).
...THAT ^ (use of the "PERFECT INDICATIVE," where Paul is referring to the CONTENT OF THE FALSE CLAIM, v.2) is not speaking merely of a point in time, and not merely of the 24-hr day of Christ's return to the earth. But of a SPANS OF TIME, that STARTED at some point IN THE PAST and its effects are CONTINUING ON into the PRESENT.
That's ^ the substance of the "false claim" (per the grammar Paul himself uses in verse 2, about that subject--a distinct subject from his v.1 subject).
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^ So when Paul himself uses the "PERFECT INDICATIVE" when he's referencing the CONTENT OF the "FALSE CLAIM" that he is drawing attention to in v.2, I am BOUND TO BELIEVE just what he is saying in reference to said "false claim"!
[PERFECT INDICATIVE is not referring to "a singular point in time" (that's SOON to occur or UPCOMING, even), and with nothing "continuing on" from it; but is referencing something that ALREADY ARRIVED at some point IN THE PAST, with CONTINUING effects into the PRESENT--THAT'S what the FALSE CLAIM CONSISTS OF, per v.2! I believe PAUL, on that... rather than some in this thread who make him saying that the "false claim" in v.2 speaks of "a singular point in time" / moment / merely 24-hr day... NO. (And that's BESIDE the fact that he's already DESCRIBED that TIME-PERIOD in the previous chpt... and ALSO in 1Th5:2-3 that the Thessalonians already "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of its ARRIVAL)]
[PERFECT INDICATIVE is not referring to "a singular point in time" (that's SOON to occur or UPCOMING, even), and with nothing "continuing on" from it; but is referencing something that ALREADY ARRIVED at some point IN THE PAST, with CONTINUING effects into the PRESENT--THAT'S what the FALSE CLAIM CONSISTS OF, per v.2! I believe PAUL, on that... rather than some in this thread who make him saying that the "false claim" in v.2 speaks of "a singular point in time" / moment / merely 24-hr day... NO. (And that's BESIDE the fact that he's already DESCRIBED that TIME-PERIOD in the previous chpt... and ALSO in 1Th5:2-3 that the Thessalonians already "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of its ARRIVAL)]
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