50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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This points to the souls ruling with Messiah for a thousand years, to have been present during the great tribulation, bringing Messiah's return and those souls resurrection and their rapture with the transfigured living believers as part of the Body (1 Thess 4:16) to be after the great tribulation. Thus those saved Christian souls part of the Body, would have been present during the great tribulation:
1 Thessalonians 4
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Revelation 20
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years.
1 Thessalonians 4
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Revelation 20
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years.
No. I would never take that approach. As Paul states in Acts 20:27, fateful accurate doctrine must be derived from the whole Counsel of God.
Instant gratification and one verse wonders are doing you a tremendous disservice. Eschatologically you are already deeply in the weeds.
You might be interested to know that the REASONS for the eschatological errors that people make on this thread are extremely obvious to me. You have no idea how obvious.
TDW has already elucidated upon the correct eschatological exegesis many many times on this thread alone. If you really want to know read his posts. In my opinion he is practically 100% correct 100% of the time.
Instant gratification and one verse wonders are doing you a tremendous disservice. Eschatologically you are already deeply in the weeds.
You might be interested to know that the REASONS for the eschatological errors that people make on this thread are extremely obvious to me. You have no idea how obvious.
TDW has already elucidated upon the correct eschatological exegesis many many times on this thread alone. If you really want to know read his posts. In my opinion he is practically 100% correct 100% of the time.
And the book of Revelation is FOR the churches. ch 1-3 are dedicated to the churches.
Rev 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
The whole book is "for the churches". Which includes Daniel's 70th week.
Rev 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
The whole book is "for the churches". Which includes Daniel's 70th week.
Except the Trib includes a number of the 10 plagues of Egypt, all the while keeping the Israelites IN Egypt.
If He did, you'd have quoted the passage by now. So far, all you've given is a spiritualized parable about virgins. And passages that have nothing to do with Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
What makes you think Jesus would teach that Jews would be raptured before the events of the Trib, since it is called "Jacob's Trouble"? Recall that Jesus' ministry was to the Jews. The Trib is FOR the Jews. Not to be avoided by the Jews.
If He did, you'd have quoted the passage by now. So far, all you've given is a spiritualized parable about virgins. And passages that have nothing to do with Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
What makes you think Jesus would teach that Jews would be raptured before the events of the Trib, since it is called "Jacob's Trouble"? Recall that Jesus' ministry was to the Jews. The Trib is FOR the Jews. Not to be avoided by the Jews.
I hear this.
You may recall that my view is that everything (in Matt24) from v.4 onward is speaking of events FOLLOWING "our Rapture," and thus Matt24:36 (and parallel verses) are speaking of "His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom" (rather than referring to "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" point in time).
So, if it is an "idiom" (v.36), would be referring to that (to His Second Coming to the earth, not our Rapture, per context).
The problem I have with that is, my chronology (of Rev) does not have His Rev19 Second Coming to the earth to occur "on RH"... rather, at the time known in scripture elsewhere that "kings go out to battle" (a very specific time)... but, of course, this not being the ONLY factor to consider, but as merely one point in a slew of points [i.e. time-stamps and timing-indicators supplied abundantly throughout Rev, that all (considered all together) form a "timing framework," for lack of a better phrase, atm... lol]
You may recall that my view is that everything (in Matt24) from v.4 onward is speaking of events FOLLOWING "our Rapture," and thus Matt24:36 (and parallel verses) are speaking of "His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom" (rather than referring to "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" point in time).
So, if it is an "idiom" (v.36), would be referring to that (to His Second Coming to the earth, not our Rapture, per context).
The problem I have with that is, my chronology (of Rev) does not have His Rev19 Second Coming to the earth to occur "on RH"... rather, at the time known in scripture elsewhere that "kings go out to battle" (a very specific time)... but, of course, this not being the ONLY factor to consider, but as merely one point in a slew of points [i.e. time-stamps and timing-indicators supplied abundantly throughout Rev, that all (considered all together) form a "timing framework," for lack of a better phrase, atm... lol]
Well, this is interesting. If the a/c is revealed before the 7 year Trib, how come he only exercises power for 42 months?
Rev 13:5 - The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months.
I guess you failed to think about that one.
[/QUOTE]Nothing else is taught.[/QUOTE]
Certainly nothing about Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
Only because he rules only for the last half of the GT.
The Bible doesn't name him, or even describe him.
you just said the 7 year gt. So, when, in the Trib, does he lose his authority and power?
Fail.
Rev 13:5 - The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months.
I guess you failed to think about that one.
[/QUOTE]Nothing else is taught.[/QUOTE]
Certainly nothing about Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
Only because he rules only for the last half of the GT.
The Bible doesn't name him, or even describe him.
you just said the 7 year gt. So, when, in the Trib, does he lose his authority and power?
Fail.
I guess you just don't understand, or want to. Are you reading Rev 14 as sequential in the chapters?
The Trib is 7 years, as you agree. Jesus returns to earth at His Second Advent to end the Trib by winning the battle of Armageddon. When He comes, He brings all the dead saints from Adam on, which includes the BULK of NT believers with Him. And He meets the living believers in the air in the clouds and resurrects the dead saints' bodies, and raptures the living saints. Then He lands and ends the Trib, and then sets up His Millennial reign on earth.
2 Thess 2:1 proves it. The "gathering" occurs at "our Lord's coming". And all this is after the Trib and revealing of the a/c.
The Trib is 7 years, as you agree. Jesus returns to earth at His Second Advent to end the Trib by winning the battle of Armageddon. When He comes, He brings all the dead saints from Adam on, which includes the BULK of NT believers with Him. And He meets the living believers in the air in the clouds and resurrects the dead saints' bodies, and raptures the living saints. Then He lands and ends the Trib, and then sets up His Millennial reign on earth.
2 Thess 2:1 proves it. The "gathering" occurs at "our Lord's coming". And all this is after the Trib and revealing of the a/c.
I can't help your problem of not considering 2 Thess 2:1 to be Scripture. It is. And you can't prove or show the verse means something else.
I've explained EVERY verse you have provided to me about what you think supports a pretrib rapture and I've shown you are merely misreading and misunderstanding them.
This is just a wildly reckless claim. You believe that Jesus will take resurrected and raptured believers to heaven EVEN THOUGH there are NO such verses that show this.
That's what is reckless; believing something the Bible doesn't say.
I've explained EVERY verse you have provided to me about what you think supports a pretrib rapture and I've shown you are merely misreading and misunderstanding them.
This is just a wildly reckless claim. You believe that Jesus will take resurrected and raptured believers to heaven EVEN THOUGH there are NO such verses that show this.
That's what is reckless; believing something the Bible doesn't say.
How many blasphemous second comings does the "pre-trib" postulation require? God's Word has one ascension of Messiah to heaven, and one descend at His one and only Second Coming.
1 Thessalonians 4
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Matthew 24
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
2 Thessalonians 2
1Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Revelation 20
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
1 Thessalonians 4
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Matthew 24
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
2 Thessalonians 2
1Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Revelation 20
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
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Jesus comes once.
The Word of God speaks of Messiah's SECOND coming, never about His third or any more comings - when He comes again, it is His FINAL coming, to rule this earth for a thousand years, and His next and final coming accompanies the resurrection of the saved, to rule with Him in the Millennial Kingdom, before the battle of Gog and Magog, when God the Father brings the new Heaven and new Earth and judges the damned dead.
The Word of God speaks of Messiah's SECOND coming, never about His third or any more comings - when He comes again, it is His FINAL coming, to rule this earth for a thousand years, and His next and final coming accompanies the resurrection of the saved, to rule with Him in the Millennial Kingdom, before the battle of Gog and Magog, when God the Father brings the new Heaven and new Earth and judges the damned dead.