50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[FreeGrace2]

In my fathers house are many mansions,I go to prepare a place for you that where i am you may be also.

OK, again, from the top.

Jesus hadn't died and been resurrected. After He died He was resurrected and came back to His disciples. Which is what He promised them. Regarding the "prepared place" for them, it should be obvious that Jesus was referring to having a place for them when they died physically. iow, He was guaranteeing them eternal security. They didn't have to worry about it.

There is zero reference to a rapture or even end times in John 14:1-3.

You postribs are needing a award for most bizarre reframing of the bible.

Maybe you don't know how funny this comes across, coming from a person is beyond convinced of a pre trib rapture when the Bible makes NO MENTION of such an event. How's that for bizarre?

Pretrib rapture only ,embraces all truth. We need no reframing.

No, that's true. All you need is an overactive imagination and fantasy.

If your position re: the rapture were true, you'd know it occurs when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

we all know the ac is coming

Got oil and imminancy?

Good....you are rapture ready.

Are you of the opinion that believers who "aren't ready" will miss it, as if missing a plane or train?

Do you believe a believer can lose salvation?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Look at your omissions needed to promote what you cleverly craft into a doctrine

Your posts continue to crack me up. You talk about omissions, and yet, your own doctrine of the rapture has the biggest most glaring omission. NO VERSE that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

Talk about omissions. Your view has it in spades.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You just totally debunked you own made up doctrine!

You said " Jesus brings the dead back with him"
In the verses you posted.

Rev 19 has those dead already risen drinking wine in heaven DURING THE GT

OK, quote the exact verses that show those in heaven have resurrected bodies and drinking wine.

I'd love to see it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There is nowhere in the bible that points to a postrib rapture.

Look at my challenge to postribs that try to post a postrib rapture verse

Yet you guys just assume it.
Then try and reframe the bible from that failed position.

JESUS SAID the OPPOSITE of your made up deal.

Bizarre

OK, where's the "assumption" about the post trib rapture in 2 Thess 2:1-3? Can you coherently explain it?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Address rev 19 bride becomes the wife.
Address disembodied spirits drinking wine in heaven.

Can't wait for the verse that says this. And show me the verse where the bride becomes the wife.

Thanks.

 

[BenjaminN]

Just the name antichrist renders pretribulationism obsolete...

Let's say all the Christians raptures out together with the resurrected believers in their glorified bodies, before the antichrist starts the great tribulation...

Why would the antichrist then be called antichrist, if there is no Christians around during his reign?

It's because Christians gets raptured together with the resurrected believers in their glorified bodies after the great tribulational reign of the antichrist.

Pretribbers kindly take a reality check in advance, before you have to take it in great distress, without being prepared with faith from God above to last, through what will be coming.

Revelation 13 (ESV)

10If anyone is to be taken captive,
to captivity he goes;
if anyone is to be slain with the sword,
with the sword must he be slain.
Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

 

[randyk]

Just the name antichrist renders pretribulationism obsolete...

Let's say all the Christians raptures out together with the resurrected believers in their glorified bodies, before the antichrist starts the great tribulation...

Why would the antichrist then be called antichrist, if there is no Christians around during his reign?

It's because Christians gets raptured together with the resurrected believers in their glorified bodies after the great tribulational reign of the antichrist.

Pretribbers kindly take a reality check in advance, before you have to take it in great distress, without being prepared with faith from God above to last, through what will be coming.

Revelation 13 (ESV)

10If anyone is to be taken captive,
to captivity he goes;
if anyone is to be slain with the sword,
with the sword must he be slain.
Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

I agree. However, the Great Distress has been with us since the ancient pagan Roman Empire. There have always been antichrists and great tribulations. Nothing new. The Antichrist himself will just be the last one--Satan's last hurrah. Thanks.

 

[ewq1938]

I agree. However, the Great Distress has been with us since the ancient pagan Roman Empire.

That would make the Great Tribulation lengthened rather than shortened like Christ promised:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The Great Tribulation is a shortened period of time that has not started yet. It is the time that the antichrist will openly declare himself to be God and he will perform miracles that will deceive people into believing he is God and that includes many Christians who will Apostatize to him.

 

[randyk]

That would make the Great Tribulation lengthened rather than shortened like Christ promised:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The Great Tribulation is a shortened period of time that has not started yet. It is the time that the antichrist will openly declare himself to be God and he will perform miracles that will deceive people into believing he is God and that includes many Christians who will Apostatize to him.

That is a current popular way of viewing it. I don't, however, view it that way. Luke 21 indicates it began with the destruction of the temple and ends with the close of the Gentiles' oppression of the Jewish People.

The "shortening" of this period of time indicates, to me, that it is indeed a very long time, the worst and longest in Israel's history. It is for that reason that it must finally be terminated, or "cut short."

In this regard, to be "cut short" indicates the termination of something that would otherwise continue indefinitely. It does not mean it will be a short period of time overall. Rather, it will be a long period of time that is kept from going on indefinitely.

And the implication also seems to be that this long period of Jewish punishment is a constant threat to Jewish survival. It is therefore "cut short" at a time when the very length of time appears to be a threat to Jewish survival. It lasts so long that people might believe that Israel is forgotten by God.

In fact, this is the source of Replacement Theology, the belief that God has given up on Israel and has now turned to the nations to bring out from them an international people without regard for nations at all.

But as we can see, in these last days, the nation Israel has been restored. God is saving the nation. God has not forgotten His covenant with Israel. She just has yet to pass through her final fire, to purify her from Judaism. To accept her Messiah she must give up her own man-made religion, which is what Judaism became after Jesus was rejected.

So as Israel comes into her own again as a nation, she will be threatened once again with utter destruction. She has not yet accepted Christ, continues to persist in Judaism, and is still under divine punishment in the present age. But God will "cut short" this destruction, and save a remnant of Israel in order to rebuild it as a nation at the coming of Christ. At least, this is what I believe, based on what I read and how I understand it.

 

[VCO]

Just the name antichrist renders pretribulationism obsolete...

Let's say all the Christians raptures out together with the resurrected believers in their glorified bodies, before the antichrist starts the great tribulation...

Why would the antichrist then be called antichrist, if there is no Christians around during his reign?

It's because Christians gets raptured together with the resurrected believers in their glorified bodies after the great tribulational reign of the antichrist.

Pretribbers kindly take a reality check in advance, before you have to take it in great distress, without being prepared with faith from God above to last, through what will be coming.

Revelation 13 (ESV)

10If anyone is to be taken captive,
to captivity he goes;
if anyone is to be slain with the sword,
with the sword must he be slain.
Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

Your excuses for not Believing in the Rapture, are Ridiculous and Laughable.


HE IS CREATOR OF EVERYTHING THAT IS:

Isaiah 43:7 (HCSB)
7 everyone called by My name and created for My glory. I have formed him; indeed, I have made him.”

Colossians 1:16-19 (HCSB)
16 For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.
18 He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything.
19 For God was pleased ⌊to have⌋ all His fullness dwell in Him,

Romans 1:20-22 (HCSB)
20 For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse.
21 For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools


HE IS BOTH KING OF THE CHRISTIANS AS WELL AS THE JEWS.

Zechariah 14:9 (HCSB)
9 On that day Yahweh will become King over all the earth—Yahweh alone, and His name alone.

Matthew 2:1-2 (ASV)
1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, Wise-men from the east came to Jerusalem, saying,
2 Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we saw his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Matthew 27:37 (HCSB)
37 Above His head they put up the charge against Him in writing: THIS IS JESUS, THE KING OF THE JEWS.

Malachi 3:6 (HCSB)
6 “Because I, Yahweh, have not changed,
you descendants of Jacob have not been destroyed.


WHO IS OR ARE THE ANTICHRISTS?

1 John 2:22-23 (HCSB)
22 Who is the liar, if not the one who denies that Jesus is the Messiah? This one is the antichrist: the one who denies the Father and the Son.
23 No one who denies the Son can have the Father; he who confesses the Son has the Father as well.

1 John 2:18 (HCSB)
18 Children, it is the last hour. And as you have heard, “Antichrist is coming,” even now many antichrists have come. We know from this that it is the last hour.

2 Thessalonians 2:5-10 (NIV)
5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,
10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

2 Peter 3:8-9 (HCSB)
8 Dear friends, don’t let this one thing escape you: With the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.

HE IS 180 degrees the OPPOSITE OF CHRIST! AND specifically it will be one who is the leader of the revived Roman Empire, that make a seven year, so-called, Peace Treaty with ISRAEL


WHO WILL BE TAKEN TO HEAVEN ? ? ?

Only Born Again Believers.

John 3:2-7 (HCSB)
2 This man came to Him at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher, for no one could perform these signs You do unless God were with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “I assure you: Unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 “But how can anyone be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked Him. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “I assure you: Unless someone is born of water {natural birth} and the Spirit {Spiritual birth or Baptism,
is what HE is referring to}, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not be amazed that I told you that you must be born again.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.


YES, that is the BAPTISM THAT SAVES. The Holy Spirit immerses US into the Spiritual Body of Jesus Christ.


Matthew 24:40-44 (HCSB)
40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and one left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and one left.
42 Therefore be alert, since you don’t know what day your Lord is coming.
43 But know this: If the homeowner had known what time the thief was coming, he would have stayed alert and not let his house be broken into.
44 This is why you also must be ready, because the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.


NOT everyone who claims to be a Christian, really are. If this is Accurate, and I think it is, 50% will be left behind, because they are not truly Born Again.


ONLY THOSE BELIEVERS WHO ARE BORN AGAIN WILL BE TAKEN TO THE WEDDING OF THE LAMB, IN THE RAPTURE.

 

[BenjaminN]

Your excuses for not Believing in the Rapture, are Ridiculous and Laughable.


HE IS CREATOR OF EVERYTHING THAT IS:

Isaiah 43:7 (HCSB)
7 everyone called by My name and created for My glory. I have formed him; indeed, I have made him.”

Colossians 1:16-19 (HCSB)
16 For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.
18 He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything.
19 For God was pleased ⌊to have⌋ all His fullness dwell in Him,

Romans 1:20-22 (HCSB)
20 For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse.
21 For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools


HE IS BOTH KING OF THE CHRISTIANS AS WELL AS THE JEWS.

Zechariah 14:9 (HCSB)
9 On that day Yahweh will become King over all the earth—Yahweh alone, and His name alone.

Matthew 2:1-2 (ASV)
1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, Wise-men from the east came to Jerusalem, saying,
2 Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we saw his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Matthew 27:37 (HCSB)
37 Above His head they put up the charge against Him in writing: THIS IS JESUS, THE KING OF THE JEWS.

Malachi 3:6 (HCSB)
6 “Because I, Yahweh, have not changed,
you descendants of Jacob have not been destroyed.


WHO IS OR ARE THE ANTICHRISTS?

1 John 2:22-23 (HCSB)
22 Who is the liar, if not the one who denies that Jesus is the Messiah? This one is the antichrist: the one who denies the Father and the Son.
23 No one who denies the Son can have the Father; he who confesses the Son has the Father as well.

1 John 2:18 (HCSB)
18 Children, it is the last hour. And as you have heard, “Antichrist is coming,” even now many antichrists have come. We know from this that it is the last hour.

2 Thessalonians 2:5-10 (NIV)
5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,
10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

2 Peter 3:8-9 (HCSB)
8 Dear friends, don’t let this one thing escape you: With the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.

HE IS 180 degrees the OPPOSITE OF CHRIST! AND specifically it will be one who is the leader of the revived Roman Empire, that make a seven year, so-called, Peace Treaty with ISRAEL


WHO WILL BE TAKEN TO HEAVEN ? ? ?

Only Born Again Believers.

John 3:2-7 (HCSB)
2 This man came to Him at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher, for no one could perform these signs You do unless God were with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “I assure you: Unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 “But how can anyone be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked Him. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “I assure you: Unless someone is born of water {natural birth} and the Spirit {Spiritual birth or Baptism,
is what HE is referring to}, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not be amazed that I told you that you must be born again.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.


YES, that is the BAPTISM THAT SAVES. The Holy Spirit immerses US into the Spiritual Body of Jesus Christ.


Matthew 24:40-44 (HCSB)
40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and one left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and one left.
42 Therefore be alert, since you don’t know what day your Lord is coming.
43 But know this: If the homeowner had known what time the thief was coming, he would have stayed alert and not let his house be broken into.
44 This is why you also must be ready, because the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.


NOT everyone who claims to be a Christian, really are. If this is Accurate, and I think it is, 50% will be left behind, because they are not truly Born Again.


ONLY THOSE BELIEVERS WHO ARE BORN AGAIN WILL BE TAKEN TO THE WEDDING OF THE LAMB, IN THE RAPTURE.

I believe in the rapture, at the Second Coming of Christ, after the great tribulation, ie. post tribulationism, the way it was believed for centuries before 1830's John Nelson Darby's christianzionism.

 

[BenjaminN]

That is a current popular way of viewing it. I don't, however, view it that way. Luke 21 indicates it began with the destruction of the temple and ends with the close of the Gentiles' oppression of the Jewish People.

The "shortening" of this period of time indicates, to me, that it is indeed a very long time, the worst and longest in Israel's history. It is for that reason that it must finally be terminated, or "cut short."

In this regard, to be "cut short" indicates the termination of something that would otherwise continue indefinitely. It does not mean it will be a short period of time overall. Rather, it will be a long period of time that is kept from going on indefinitely.

And the implication also seems to be that this long period of Jewish punishment is a constant threat to Jewish survival. It is therefore "cut short" at a time when the very length of time appears to be a threat to Jewish survival. It lasts so long that people might believe that Israel is forgotten by God.

In fact, this is the source of Replacement Theology, the belief that God has given up on Israel and has now turned to the nations to bring out from them an international people without regard for nations at all.

But as we can see, in these last days, the nation Israel has been restored. God is saving the nation. God has not forgotten His covenant with Israel. She just has yet to pass through her final fire, to purify her from Judaism. To accept her Messiah she must give up her own man-made religion, which is what Judaism became after Jesus was rejected.

So as Israel comes into her own again as a nation, she will be threatened once again with utter destruction. She has not yet accepted Christ, continues to persist in Judaism, and is still under divine punishment in the present age. But God will "cut short" this destruction, and save a remnant of Israel in order to rebuild it as a nation at the coming of Christ. At least, this is what I believe, based on what I read and how I understand it.

Read the whole of Romans 11 as well as:

Ephesians 3 (NKJV)

6that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

 

[randyk]

Read the whole of Romans 11 as well as:

Ephesians 3 (NKJV)

6that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

Why should I read that?

 

[VCO]

I believe in the rapture, at the Second Coming of Christ, after the great tribulation, ie. post tribulationism, the way it was believed for centuries before 1830's John Nelson Darby's christianzionism.

Lots of luck with your wild theory, I think you are going to need it.

I will believe in what the Holy Spirit has put on my heart to BELIEVE.

 

[randyk]

Lots of luck with your wild theory, I think you are going to need it.

I will believe in what the Holy Spirit has put on my heart to BELIEVE.

That's incredible. The guy believes in something the Church has believed in for centuries, and you call it a "wild theory?" Something's definitely wrong with your view on this! At worst, it's a disagreement is all. If it's so important for you to believe in the Pretrib Rapture that you're going to insult all of Church history to hold onto it, I'd say you missed the Holy Spirit!

"Take not the Lord's name in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain."

 

[BenjaminN]

That's incredible. The guy believes in something the Church has believed in for centuries, and you call it a "wild theory?" Something's definitely wrong with your view on this! At worst, it's a disagreement is all. If it's so important for you to believe in the Pretrib Rapture that you're going to insult all of Church history to hold onto it, I'd say you missed the Holy Spirit!

"Take not the Lord's name in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain."

I think pretribbers have been programmed to believe in a pretrib rapture as part of their Salvation. Unfortunately they think that they will not be raptured whenever God has ordained it to happen (pre or post tribulation), if they do not believe in a pretribulation rapture. The Gospel tells us that Salvation is guaranteed for those who believe that Christ has died for our sins on the cross and God's plan for your life will follow. Thus pretribbers will unfortunately go as former Christian believers with little faith into the great tribulation, and might be some of the Christians that will for part of the great apostasy.

 

[ewq1938]

Thus pretribbers will unfortunately go as former Christian believers with little faith into the great tribulation, and might be some of the Christians that will for part of the great apostasy.

Pre-trib is the perfect set up to accept a false Christ and Apostatize. The doctrine does not appear in scripture so we know it is part of the delusion sent.

 

[BenjaminN]

Pre-trib is the perfect set up to accept a false Christ and Apostatize. The doctrine does not appear in scripture so we know it is part of the delusion sent.

christianzionism

 

[FreeGrace2]

2 Thessalonians 2:5-10 (NIV)
5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,
10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Don't forget, v.1-3 of 2 Thess 2 describe the rapture (gathering) as occuring when Christ comes at the Second Advent.

WHO WILL BE TAKEN TO HEAVEN ? ? ?

Only Born Again Believers.

Every believer is taken to heaven when they die.

What WON'T occur is Jesus taking anyone to heaven at the rapture. If He does, the Bible would have mentioned it.

John 3:2-7 (HCSB)
2 This man came to Him at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher, for no one could perform these signs You do unless God were with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “I assure you: Unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 “But how can anyone be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked Him. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “I assure you: Unless someone is born of water {natural birth} and the Spirit {Spiritual birth or Baptism,
is what HE is referring to}, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not be amazed that I told you that you must be born again.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

None of these verses describe believers going to heaven after being raptured.

ONLY THOSE BELIEVERS WHO ARE BORN AGAIN WILL BE TAKEN TO THE WEDDING OF THE LAMB, IN THE RAPTURE.

Per the biblical definition of "believer", ALL believers are born again.

And the Bible does NOT describe believers attending the wedding of the Lamb in heaven. In fact, Rev 19 shows all the dead saints preparing for the wedding of the Lamb, and then IMMEDIATELY getting ready to accompany Christ to earth to end the Trib.