Unconditional love and the church's approach to homosexuality

[NotmebutHim]

Delta Foxtrot Tango Tango

 

[AlmondJoy]

WHICH PART OF,,,IF YOU FOCUS ON SPREADING THE WORD OF LOVE AND DEVELOPING A RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS, THEN SIN WILL NATURALLY DIMINISH WITH NO EFFORT ON ITS OWN
DOES THAT SOUND LIKE IM ADVOCATING SINNING WANTONLY?

don't lose your focus

 

[AlmondJoy]

I believe that the way many churches and Christians approach the issue of homosexuality is unbiblical.

Churches market themselves as offering unconditional love.
However, all too often they use a bait and switch tactic whereby they offer unconditional love to tempt people in and yet once 'captured', it is discovered that this love and acceptance is conditional on the newcomer changing in whichever way the church 'elders' dictate they should change.
If the church member doesn't change, they may find that they are not included in ways that they were before.

This is manipulation and spiritual abuse, and is absolutely not the kind of unconditional love offered by Jesus.

Before anybody says that homosexuality is forbidden by the Bible and that I'm "ignoring scripture"...
Prostitution is also forbidden in the Bible, and we all know how Jesus asked people not to throw stones and cast judgement.

You see, Jesus uses love to define scripture, and yet humans use scripture to define love.

Jesus reached out to the marginalised, and yet we reach out to condemn.
Perhaps it's in our fallen nature to want to play God?

Lastly, the reason I'm sticking up for homosexuals and using them as an example here is not because I'm gay myself, just as the reason why I'm against racism is not because I am black.

The devil must really be happy. People that identify as being a part of the CHURCH are now arguing if HOMOSEXUALS is a sin!
what in the world has happened to the church? FYI God said what he meant, and he meant what he said.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Grace wasnt given yet, nor the Holy Spirit while Jesus was alive.

God's grace has been operative in the lives of man since the beginning of the world. God's grace was shown to Adam and Eve after they rebelled; to Cain after he murdered Abel; to Enoch when he was taken by God; etc, etc, etc.

You're referring to what you've been taught by the false teacher(s) you've been mentored by, which is the heretical "hyper grace." "For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." Jude :4.

 

[Mark47Oz]

The devil must really be happy. People that identify as being a part of the CHURCH are now arguing if HOMOSEXUALS is a sin!
what in the world has happened to the church? FYI God said what he meant, and he meant what he said.

As the only openly gay person in this thread, I have suggested over and over that the debate is not and should not be whether homosexuality defined as sin in scripture. That's not up for debate - the bible OT and new makes it clear that sexual activity among people of the same gender is offensive to God.

The real debate and where everyone is failing is how to help Gay people move forward and closer to Christ. The vast majority want to write the sinner off with the sin. And that is not right either. Some want to throw an olive branch, but expect gay people to go cold turkey and just stop being gay instantaneously. Again, while magnificent if achievable, reality dictates humans are sinful by nature and it may not be a smooth pathway.

I've suggested another way a few times now, but it gets ignored or shot down. And that is 'The long road home'. This is the one way that will help gay people make permanent, lasting change little by little. And it works like this;

1) Jesus loves YOU! (The Christian community have spent so many hours telling gay people God hates them that it is just accepted as fact by us)
2) You were designed with purpose
3) Letting Jesus in
4) Taking stock of where we are now and where we need to be heading
5) Repentance
6) Forgiveness
7) A life of atonement in the knowledge that we are who we are and our flesh nature is contrary to God's will
8) Working toward becoming a Eunuch for the glory of God (chastity) (Matthew 19:12)

None of this will be a walk in the park, but Jesus himself said that it is easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than achieve the Kingdom of heaven. ie The promise is great, but the journey is not necessarily going to be easy.

 

[JerryInBoston]

As the only openly gay person in this thread, I have suggested over and over that the debate is not and should not be whether homosexuality defined as sin in scripture. That's not up for debate - the bible OT and new makes it clear that sexual activity among people of the same gender is offensive to God.

The real debate and where everyone is failing is how to help Gay people move forward and closer to Christ. The vast majority want to write the sinner off with the sin. And that is not right either. Some want to throw an olive branch, but expect gay people to go cold turkey and just stop being gay instantaneously. Again, while magnificent if achievable, reality dictates humans are sinful by nature and it may not be a smooth pathway.

I've suggested another way a few times now, but it gets ignored or shot down. And that is 'The long road home'. This is the one way that will help gay people make permanent, lasting change little by little. And it works like this;

1) Jesus loves YOU! (The Christian community have spent so many hours telling gay people God hates them that it is just accepted as fact by us)
2) You were designed with purpose
3) Letting Jesus in
4) Taking stock of where we are now and where we need to be heading
5) Repentance
6) Forgiveness
7) A life of atonement in the knowledge that we are who we are and our flesh nature is contrary to God's will
8) Working toward becoming a Eunuch for the glory of God (chastity) (Matthew 19:12)

None of this will be a walk in the park, but Jesus himself said that it is easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than achieve the Kingdom of heaven. ie The promise is great, but the journey is not necessarily going to be easy.

Millions of heterosexual men and women live celibate, and in many cases it is "cold turkey." You just stop fornicating and never go back to fornicating. When the love of your life is Jesus Christ, celibacy is a blessing. If heterosexuals that love the Lord can go cold turkey, homosexials can, too, if they love the Lord. It's that simple.

 

[Mark47Oz]

Millions of heterosexual men and women live celibate, and in many cases it is "cold turkey." You just stop fornicating and never go back to fornicating. When the love of your life is Jesus Christ, celibacy is a blessing. If heterosexuals that love the Lord can go cold turkey, homosexials can, too, if they love the Lord. It's that simple.

And that's the problem. Zero love. Meanwhile porn addicted heterosexual adulterers sit in the pews in your church without challenge. I guarantee it.

 

[JerryInBoston]

And that's the problem. Zero love. Meanwhile porn addicted heterosexual adulterers sit in the pews in your church without challenge. I guarantee it.

Yes, I'm sure you're right about hetero adultery and porn addicts. I'm certain that when hetero adulterers and porn addicts come out of the closet and proclaim their pride aloud for being adulterers and porn addicts and start to march in parades with a flag mocking a promise God made to Noah, they'll likely see the same response to their disgusting behavior that the homosexual has seen toward theirs.

 

[Wansvic]

And that's the problem. Zero love.

If people were showing zero love toward you they would not bother to try and steer you in the right direction. Refusing to tell someone the truth because they might get upset is not loving, it is cruel.

Sadly society has been desensitized to sin. And many don't see how their actions are such a big deal. Many cannot fathom how God can expect them to go through the "torture" of submitting to his will. Surely he is a loving God and will make an exception in their case. This mentality is wrong. Yes, God is a loving God. But, he is a just God as well.


"...let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." 1 John 3:7

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:3

 

[Gideon300]

It doesn't mean the authors are omniscient

Indeed, Jesus argues against those who are too much attached to knowledge...

Wisdom is a result of living it

God has ensured that man has His Word. No individual has all the knowledge and that's why there are a number of authors. And yes, the Living Word is more important than the written word. But without the written word, we can never be sure that our understanding of spiritual things is correct. It's hard enough with the Bible to keep us in the truth.

There is a danger of excessive reliance on intellect and mental knowledge. At the same time, those who ignore the Bible are easy prey for deception. "Knowledge without the Spirit puffs up. Spirit without the Word blows up. The Word and the Spirit builds up".

You may be referring to Paul's statement that we know only in part. That is true. It does not mean that what we have in the Bible is incorrect. What is means that God is beyond human comprehension. Unless God reveals Himself and His ways, we cannot know Him. But He has chosen to reveal Himself.
1 Corinthians 2:9 & 10.
Rather, as it is written: “ No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him.” But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.…"

Paul is quoting Isaiah 64:4 He goes on to say that the spiritual eyes of the born again can see what no man had seen until Lord Jesus was revealed.

 

[Gideon300]

Yes, I'm sure you're right about hetero adultery and porn addicts. I'm certain that when hetero adulterers and porn addicts come out of the closet and proclaim their pride aloud for being adulterers and porn addicts and start to march in parades with a flag mocking a promise God made to Noah, they'll likely see the same response to their disgusting behavior that the homosexual has seen toward theirs.

Well said.

 

[kaylagrl]

Millions of heterosexual men and women live celibate, and in many cases it is "cold turkey." You just stop fornicating and never go back to fornicating. When the love of your life is Jesus Christ, celibacy is a blessing. If heterosexuals that love the Lord can go cold turkey, homosexials can, too, if they love the Lord. It's that simple.

Not everyone matures in Christ as fast as the next person. There are people who have lifelong stuggles with drugs, alcohol, sexual purity both straight and gay. My father was a smoker in his youth, he came to Christ and never smoked again. But there are people here who stuggle with it and have for a long time. Again, not everyone gains victory over the struggle right away. And it's wrong to judge those people and bar them from God's grace and mercy.

 

[CS1]

As the only openly gay person in this thread, I have suggested over and over that the debate is not and should not be whether homosexuality defined as sin in scripture. That's not up for debate - the bible OT and new makes it clear that sexual activity among people of the same gender is offensive to God.

The real debate and where everyone is failing is how to help Gay people move forward and closer to Christ. The vast majority want to write the sinner off with the sin. And that is not right either. Some want to throw an olive branch, but expect gay people to go cold turkey and just stop being gay instantaneously. Again, while magnificent if achievable, reality dictates humans are sinful by nature and it may not be a smooth pathway.

I've suggested another way a few times now, but it gets ignored or shot down. And that is 'The long road home'. This is the one way that will help gay people make permanent, lasting change little by little. And it works like this;

1) Jesus loves YOU! (The Christian community have spent so many hours telling gay people God hates them that it is just accepted as fact by us)
2) You were designed with purpose
3) Letting Jesus in
4) Taking stock of where we are now and where we need to be heading
5) Repentance
6) Forgiveness
7) A life of atonement in the knowledge that we are who we are and our flesh nature is contrary to God's will
8) Working toward becoming a Eunuch for the glory of God (chastity) (Matthew 19:12)

None of this will be a walk in the park, but Jesus himself said that it is easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than achieve the Kingdom of heaven. ie The promise is great, but the journey is not necessarily going to be easy.

No one here has written off anyone, that is your defense tactics when one disagrees with you BIBLICALLY. There is no smooth pathway in which sexual addiction is a stronghold. No one is saying that GAY PERSON WILL STOP THEIR ADDCITON OVERNIGHT BUT GOD CAN BREAK IT IN an hour, day, week, or even a month, but the person must draw near to God.

You yourself say you are openly gay therefore you have no intentions of not being gay. And then to justify yourself you are trying to make your own addiction the fault of what you think is unloving Christians. You defend being gay, you identify as being gay you support being gay and you are not a Christian. Homosexual sexual activity is not offensive to God it is an abomination, and those who do such things will not be saved.

This is the political ideology of this demon pervesion. They want to stay gay, and not have the word of God spoken in truth that makes them suffer from the torment of being gay. Your very list has many false narrtitives

1) Jesus loves YOU! (The Christian community have spent so many hours telling gay people God hates them that it is just accepted as fact by us)
wrong! no one here has said God hates gays that is a lie created to draw kid gloves when dealing with radical gays.
2) You were designed with purpose
no one has said that either. that is what gays feel all the time because they are NOT IN THE WILL OF GOD just like all who have addictions.
3) Letting Jesus in
amen you must repent, surrender, and receive as we all must
4) Taking stock of where we are now and where we need to be heading
separate yourself from the influence that has your addiction groomed
5) Repentance
The very first thing that needs to happen is the real number 1#
6) Forgiveness
Number 2# receive it
7) A life of atonement in the knowledge that we are who we are and our flesh nature is contrary to God's will
lie from the pit of hell one is no more gay than one is a heroin addict you can be set free and have victory today in your flesh.
8) Working toward becoming a Eunuch for the glory of God (chastity) (Matthew 19:12)
the doctrine of self-justification IF I become a Eunuch but still gay but have no physical intimacy with the same sex I am good with God. it's ok to be adultery, drunkard, and murderer at heart as long as I never do it.

That is not the Gospel Message. Jesus has come to set men free of open prison doors save that which is lost. Your thinking is surrendering to the addiction not victory over it.

 

[kaylagrl]

Yes, I'm sure you're right about hetero adultery and porn addicts. I'm certain that when hetero adulterers and porn addicts come out of the closet and proclaim their pride aloud for being adulterers and porn addicts and start to march in parades with a flag mocking a promise God made to Noah, they'll likely see the same response to their disgusting behavior that the homosexual has seen toward theirs.

Woah, wait, how is that right?! They're hiding their stuggles, it's not any less wrong then someone who comes out and admits their struggles. @ Mark isn't condoning sin. He's saying it takes baby steps for some people. Why are you condeming him?! Both are struggling. He's being open and honest about it.

 

[Gideon300]

And that's the problem. Zero love. Meanwhile porn addicted heterosexual adulterers sit in the pews in your church without challenge. I guarantee it.

The fellowship I belong to ministers to those oppressed by sexual sin. We tell adulterers to end the wrong relationship and those bound by lust we encourage and help to set free. People living together we expect to marry. Sometimes the problem is a demonic bondage and deliverance is required. How do we know? God reveals it by His Spirit or the conviction comes and people ask us for help.

It is to the detriment of the Church that so much sin is hidden. God hates sin because of what it does to us, not only because it offends His righteousness.

I note, as others have done, that there is no "adulterers month", "march for murderers", "thieves for Jesus" or any similar nonsense. Sin is sin and disqualifies the sinner from inheriting the Kingdom of God. Salvation means to be saved from a sinful lifestyle. Everyone stumbles at times, and God has provided the remedy for that. There is no remedy for deliberately rebelling against God's revealed purpose and will.

We do not tolerate people who refuse to give up a sinful lifestyle. We invite them to go elsewhere. So far, we've not had to deal with homosexuals. They would be treated exactly the same as any other sinner. Sin is a disease and Lord Jesus is the cure!

 

[Gideon300]

As the only openly gay person in this thread, I have suggested over and over that the debate is not and should not be whether homosexuality defined as sin in scripture. That's not up for debate - the bible OT and new makes it clear that sexual activity among people of the same gender is offensive to God.

The real debate and where everyone is failing is how to help Gay people move forward and closer to Christ. The vast majority want to write the sinner off with the sin. And that is not right either. Some want to throw an olive branch, but expect gay people to go cold turkey and just stop being gay instantaneously. Again, while magnificent if achievable, reality dictates humans are sinful by nature and it may not be a smooth pathway.

I've suggested another way a few times now, but it gets ignored or shot down. And that is 'The long road home'. This is the one way that will help gay people make permanent, lasting change little by little. And it works like this;

1) Jesus loves YOU! (The Christian community have spent so many hours telling gay people God hates them that it is just accepted as fact by us)
2) You were designed with purpose
3) Letting Jesus in
4) Taking stock of where we are now and where we need to be heading
5) Repentance
6) Forgiveness
7) A life of atonement in the knowledge that we are who we are and our flesh nature is contrary to God's will
8) Working toward becoming a Eunuch for the glory of God (chastity) (Matthew 19:12)

None of this will be a walk in the park, but Jesus himself said that it is easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than achieve the Kingdom of heaven. ie The promise is great, but the journey is not necessarily going to be easy.

The key is whether or not the homosexual really wants to be free. If so, then anyone who loves the brethren will go the second, the third and even the fourth mile to help them.

I have a personal interest in this topic. I knew a Christian who was baptised in the Holy Spirit. I was not at the time. He was a strong influence in my life and helped me to seek the gift. I did not know it then, but he was gay before he was born again. he was one of the most gifted and talented people I've ever met.

I lost track of him when he moved overseas. I found out through a mutual friend that Mike had backslidden. He's gone back to his former life. He contracted AIDS and he died. He repented before he died, so that's something. He left a family behind and missed out on God's eternal purpose for his life. It's such a waste. And it does not have to be that way.

 

[CS1]

Woah, wait, how is that right?! They're hiding their stuggles, it's not any less wrong then someone who comes out and admits their struggles. @ Mark isn't condoning sin. He's saying it takes baby steps for some people. Why are you condeming him?! Both are struggling. He's being open and honest about it.

I agree to a point he is but he is openly gay and has no intentions of not being gay. it is not even subtle. To those who are gY IT NOT EVEN A SIN it is who they are and the political system gives a sexual preference race and ethnicity.

There is no one their sin in a society like homosexuality that is protected by the Government, school system and many churches to where you can be fined, imprisoned, and HAVE THINGS TAKEN FROM YOU if you do the following, they either attacked in the media as racist, homophobe, and intolerant.

just saying or doing these things:

1. use the term sexual preference to describe homosexuals
2. banned and laws made to stop conversion therapy " preaching one has to repent
3. laws to allow transgender boys into the girls' locker room was supported by the SCOTS just a few days ago
4. Transgender in the Olympics

Biblically every nation that has done this God destroyed. it is no longer about a person who has the lack ability and self-control no, it is a movement that will bring and has brought the destruction of the family unit as God intended it to be.

 

[John146]

And it's wrong to judge those people and bar them from God's grace and mercy.

Do not we judge those that are within the church? Those that do not want to leave their lifestyle should be put out of the fellowship of the church. In fact, we should not even share a meal with them. Yes?

 

[JerryInBoston]

Not everyone matures in Christ as fast as the next person. There are people who have lifelong stuggles with drugs, alcohol, sexual purity both straight and gay. My father was a smoker in his youth, he came to Christ and never smoked again. But there are people here who stuggle with it and have for a long time. Again, not everyone gains victory over the struggle right away. And it's wrong to judge those people and bar them from God's grace and mercy.

First of all, kudos to your dad. That is evidence of the power of Christ in him, without which he'd probably still be smoking.

We are all sinners that fall short of God's glory. We sin because we are sinners by nature, and each of us struggles with sin and temptation to sin. But, once we are given the power of Christ in us, we have been given a strength we never had before: the power and strength of Jesus Christ.

Repentance and faith in Jesus are more powerful than people seem to grasp. When we know we are saved, we want nothing more than to please the Lord, which means, while we may not be sinless, we will indeed sin less and less and less, because we know it displeases the Lord when we cave to temptation.

It is Christ's power and strength that pulled me into sobriety, into smoke cessation, and out of sexual immorality. It is Christ's power and strength that holds me up and guides my path, and though I may sometimes stumble in some other sin, it's His power and strength that convicts me, chastises me,, picks me up, puts me back on the narrow way through the strait gate, and continues to guide me. Five years without alcohol or tobacco and six years celibacy, all by the power of Christ that abides in me. Praise the Lord Jesus Christ. It's because of His love for me and my love for Him that I am free. Others can be,, too. Hallelujah ❤

 

[CS1]

The key is whether or not the homosexual really wants to be free. If so, then anyone who loves the brethren will go the second, the third and even the fourth mile to help them.

I have a personal interest in this topic. I knew a Christian who was baptised in the Holy Spirit. I was not at the time. He was a strong influence in my life and helped me to seek the gift. I did not know it then, but he was gay before he was born again. he was one of the most gifted and talented people I've ever met.

I lost track of him when he moved overseas. I found out through a mutual friend that Mike had backslidden. He's gone back to his former life. He contracted AIDS and he died. He repented before he died, so that's something. He left a family behind and missed out on God's eternal purpose for his life. It's such a waste. And it does not have to be that way.

I too have had the same experience with family members who were married and suffered from homosexuality. it was not he was gay, but two of his uncles sexually abused him at a very young age. He was married with two children and a JW's minister. He divorced his wife and went full into the gay lifestyle and was one of the first 100 to contract HIV in the early setting of SF. No one would even go see him( mother or Father) they were afraid because no one really knew at this time how it was contracted.

I led him to Christ before he died. He died alone no mirrors in his room and no one telling him what was going on. all nurses were dressed in PPE and he had no answers. at that moment he asked me, " how do I look"? I told him the truth, it was one of the hardest things to do at that time. Doug, you look like the man who is about to die. He said, " I thought so, but no one will tell me" .

I told him of Jesus and how HE can take away the fear and forgive him and save him if he would ask him to do so. He said "that seems pretty simple", yes it is. Doug breathed his last BREATH ON THIS SIDE and his first eternal breath on the other side.


When I where those like mark tell us how unloving we are when I and many of us were in SF and Oakland at hospitals trying to reach these dying gay men in such a reckless way to tell me what I need to do today when I have SEEN MANY OVER THE YEARS and today come out of sexual addiction, and sexual idolatry, perversion, drunkness, ADULTERY, AS I TOO WAS saved by the Lord and set free think they hAVE more understanding then I or others is nothing but pride.

Just like COVID-19 I and many others did not stay home and pray for people only, we went to them. Loved them by demonstrating it.