2 Thessalonians 2

[OldSage]

Well, I've already gone over (with you, I think, over in the other threads) that the 70ad section of the Olivet Discourse (Lk21:12-24a), where it speaks of "the desolation THEREOF" (of Jerusalem) is a part of the Dan9:26b "desolaTIONS [PLURAL] are determined" that is spoken of there (but is not the "AOD [singular / singular] spoken of by Daniel the prophet" Jesus talked about in Matt24:15[21] [that is, Dan12:11]--the only other "singular / singular" reference in Daniel besides one speaking of the time of A4E [that Jesus WASN'T referencing]); this pertains to the CHRONOLOGY issues in Jesus' Olivet Discourse, I posted about...

You do greatly err DW.
Matthew and Mark refer to the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel.
The AoD's that you reference were spoken by the Angel Gabriel, or the Man in Linen.

You need to search Daniel's words. E.G.

Daniel 9:17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I already covered that in the other thread (with you, I believe), where I'd supplied (among other passages):

Matt23 -

38 Behold, your house IS LEFT UNTO you desolate. [said to "Jerusalem," per the preceding verse]

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, TILL ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
[parallel some similar things said in OT references, as I pointed out in those other threads...]




[not to mention, what Jesus SAID on the very day that the "69 Wks [total]" were concluded: Luke 19:41-44 "but NOW they are HID from thine eyes" ("the city" that He wept over, in this context; same Subject that the Dan9:24-27 covers)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Some people lie and say that day already come

Paul tell the truth that day not going to come before man of sin reveal or 7 years tribulation

The "false claim" (v.2) is that the tribulation period [a TIME PERIOD] of judgments unfolding is already present/here. (Compare 2:2 with 1Th5:1-3 [/ Matt24:4 / Mk13:5].)


So, you've got your categories in the wrong slots, and consequently are missing what Paul was actually conveying here. = )

 

[OldSage]

--Daniel 12:13 "But go [Daniel] thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest [i.e. in death], and STAND IN THY LOT [i.e. be resurrected ('to stand again' on the earth)] at the END of the days [i.e. at the END of the "days" being referenced IN THIS CONTEXT, so at the "END" of what vv.6,7,1 speak of, not to mention the day-amounts supplied in the "AOD [singular / singular]" reference (Jesus Himself spoke of) per Daniel 12:11]; Daniel did NOT "stand in thy lot" in the events surrounding 70ad. And besides that, Luke 21:32's "TILL ALL be fulfilled" must necessarily INCLUDE the "of lengthy-duration" items that v.24 had ALREADY just spoken of...[/QUOTE]

It is badly presented waffle Watered-down.
Either make your case or do not.
You really seem to have no idea what Daniel is about.

 

[GaryA]

Paul tell the truth that day not going to come before man of sin reveal or 7 years tribulation

Please show me/us where Paul says anything at all about a 7-year tribulation.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Please show me/us where Paul says anything at all about a 7-year tribulation.

My understanding is that Paul's referencing the "who / who / who" ("whose / who / whom") in 2Th2:9a, 4, 8b, he is pointedly referencing the "he / he / he" of Dan9:27a / b / c [26b] (i.e. SEVEN YEARS'-worth of that person... "the prince THAT SHALL COME" [distinct from the One in v.25,26a])



[same person as referenced in Dan11:36,37... and in parts of Dan7--esp vv 8,11,20,21,24,25,26 (paralleling Rev13:5-7,1)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So let me ask you just to be clear, in Acts 20:29-31 what ALL would you say Paul is warning the new believers at Ephesus about?

Let me put it like this:

both Jesus and Paul spoke [or wrote, as in the case with Paul] about both things near and things far.

[this is not to suggest that Paul grasped that the 'far' things were going to be some 2000-yrs off in the distance, but then again, perhaps he DID grasp the concept regarding the "after TWO DAYS" and "IN the THIRD DAY" that Hosea mentions, in Hosea 5:14-6:3 regarding Israel and Israel's FUTURE; Peter said "be not ignorant OF THIS ONE THING"... so I'm not too sure he was wholly ignorant of it, as I see it]

 

[Yahshua]

Hi Yahshua,
Greetings. It's encouraging to find someone who is clearly a devotee of scripture.

Same

You said: -
'' Notice in this passage, Paul doesn't say "the wrath is come upon them (Jews) for forbidding us to speak to you (Gentiles)", rather the brethren - the audience; the "you"; the recipients of Paul's letter - are being distinguished from BOTH the Jews and the Gentiles. This is in harmony with the Almighty being no respecter of person; there are only the righteous and unrighteous. ''

No. this is incorrect. It is clearly the Jews upon who the wrath comes.

Yes, "the wrath upon the Jews" in the passage wasn't in dispute at all. Again, I NEVER suggested that the passage doesn't say "wrath is come upon the Jews". I was pointing out the language Paul uses; how it was specifically being directed to Paul's audience (I paraphrased what the passage WASN'T saying because we only have 1000 characters). Words can fail. This is what I was getting at:


What the passage DOES says [brackets mine]
For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [your own countrymen] have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us [the apostles]; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us [apostles] to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their [Jews] sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them [Jews] to the uttermost.

- ^ Paul's language shows his target audience was distinct from Jews AND Gentiles. Acts 17:4 confirms that (1) some believing Jews and (2) many believing gentiles made up the church of Thessalonians. It wasn't just believing Jews, and it wasn't just believing gentiles.


What the passage DOESN'T say [brackets mine]
For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [your own countrymen] have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us [the apostles]; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us [apostles] to speak to you that you might be saved, to fill up their [Jews} sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them [Jews] to the uttermost.

- ^ How many incorrectly read the passage; thinking believing gentiles are Paul's sole audience. Do you see the subtle difference I'm pointing out in red? This subtle difference can change how the rest of the letter is read.

1 Thessalonians 4 6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

So Paul is saying that the judgment comes on the church, not the gentiles!
Completely the opposite of what you suggest.

Well, my point was "wrath comes upon all of the unrighteous and ungodly: to the Jew first and then to the Gentile", and then showed this was exactly how Paul spoke to his audience: how in one part of his letter (1 Thess 2:14-17) Paul speaks about wrath ALREADY (i.e. "is come") upon the Jews while in the latter part of his letter (1 Thess 4-5) Paul speaks about sudden destruction to come upon the Gentiles. He's not specifically hinting at the pending 70 AD destruction (which doesn't exclude it from wrath...we know it's definitely included in the wrath that fell upon unrighteous Jews, in hindsight), but Paul is speaking generally about wrath in the 1st letter. Paul is writing to everyone in the mixed group.


Also, I think where our signals are getting crossed is in our use of the words "judgment" (which I understand as "being weighed in the balance") and "wrath" (which I understand as "destruction". Wrath = Destruction = Wrath = Destruction. They're the same thing.). At some point I may have written the wrong word but...

"Judgment begins at the house of God" (1 Peter 4:17) which is Messiah's church, and then extends outwardly as all will be judged by Paul's gospel (Romans 2:16)...but Messiah's church isn't appointed to wrath (1 Thess 5:9). The Almighty isn't a respecter of persons, so wrath must fall on ALL of the unrighteous and ungodly equally...but upon the Jew first (since they receive the oracles of God).

- All are judged by Paul's gospel, beginning at Almighty's house // Messiah's church.
- Wrath falls on the unrighteous (those who were given the law but ignored it) = Disobedient Jews
- Wrath falls on the ungodly (those who know not God and lived without love) = Unbelieving Gentiles

-----

And all of this was to established the context of Paul's 2nd letter to the Thessalonians.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

- ^ How many incorrectly read the passage; thinking believing gentiles are Paul's sole audience.

Not me, for one.






[... if I've understood you correctly...]

 

[OldSage]

Same



Yes, "the wrath upon the Jews" in the passage wasn't in dispute at all. Again, I NEVER suggested that the passage doesn't say "wrath is come upon the Jews". I was pointing out the language Paul uses; how it was specifically being directed to Paul's audience (I paraphrased what the passage WASN'T saying because we only have 1000 characters). Words can fail. This is what I was getting at:


What the passage DOES says [brackets mine]
For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [your own countrymen] have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us [the apostles]; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us [apostles] to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their [Jews] sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them [Jews] to the uttermost.

- ^ Paul's language shows his target audience was distinct from Jews AND Gentiles. Acts 17:4 confirms that (1) some believing Jews and (2) many believing gentiles made up the church of Thessalonians. It wasn't just believing Jews, and it wasn't just believing gentiles.


What the passage DOESN'T say [brackets mine]
For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [your own countrymen] have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us [the apostles]; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us [apostles] to speak to you that you might be saved, to fill up their [Jews} sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them [Jews] to the uttermost.

- ^ How many incorrectly read the passage; thinking believing gentiles are Paul's sole audience. Do you see the subtle difference I'm pointing out in red? This subtle difference can change how the rest of the letter is read.




Well, my point was "wrath comes upon all of the unrighteous and ungodly: to the Jew first and then to the Gentile", and then showed this was exactly how Paul spoke to his audience: how in one part of his letter (1 Thess 2:14-17) Paul speaks about wrath ALREADY (i.e. "is come") upon the Jews while in the latter part of his letter (1 Thess 4-5) Paul speaks about sudden destruction to come upon the Gentiles. He's not specifically hinting at the pending 70 AD destruction (which doesn't exclude it from wrath...we know it's definitely included in the wrath that fell upon unrighteous Jews, in hindsight), but Paul is speaking generally about wrath in the 1st letter. Paul is writing to everyone in the mixed group.


Also, I think where our signals are getting crossed is in our use of the words "judgment" (which I understand as "being weighed in the balance") and "wrath" (which I understand as "destruction". Wrath = Destruction = Wrath = Destruction. They're the same thing.). At some point I may have written the wrong word but...

"Judgment begins at the house of God" (1 Peter 4:17) which is Messiah's church, and then extends outwardly as all will be judged by Paul's gospel (Romans 2:16)...but Messiah's church isn't appointed to wrath (1 Thess 5:9). The Almighty isn't a respecter of persons, so wrath must fall on ALL of the unrighteous and ungodly equally...but upon the Jew first (since they receive the oracles of God).

- All are judged by Paul's gospel, beginning at Almighty's house // Messiah's church.
- Wrath falls on the unrighteous (those who were given the law but ignored it) = Disobedient Jews
- Wrath falls on the ungodly (those who know not God and lived without love) = Unbelieving Gentiles

-----

And all of this was to established the context of Paul's 2nd letter to the Thessalonians.

Hi Yashuah,

Well my initial take-out is that you are not really distinguishing between Israel and the nations.

Romans 2 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Can you see that there are two judgments?

Hence 'to the Jew first'.

 

[Yahshua]

Let me put it like this:

both Jesus and Paul spoke [or wrote, as in the case with Paul] about both things near and things far.

[this is not to suggest that Paul grasped that the 'far' things were going to be some 2000-yrs off in the distance, but then again, perhaps he DID grasp the concept regarding the "after TWO DAYS" and "IN the THIRD DAY" that Hosea mentions, in Hosea 5:14-6:3 regarding Israel and Israel's FUTURE; Peter said "be not ignorant OF THIS ONE THING"... so I'm not too sure he was wholly ignorant of it, as I see it]

.....Divine,

In Acts 20:29-31, what ALL was Paul warning these BRAND NEW believers - for 3 years, with tears - would happen after he leaves Ephesus?

Sir//Madam, are exactly are you suggesting otherwise then? That Holy Spirit-filled Paul misunderstood the timing about his prediction? Because that's the only explanation left. 3 years with tears in his eyes...??

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

.....Divine,

In Acts 20:29-31, what ALL was Paul warning these BRAND NEW believers - for 3 years, with tears - would happen after he leaves Ephesus?
Sir//Madam, are exactly are you suggesting otherwise then? That Holy Spirit-filled Paul misunderstood the timing about his prediction? Because that's the only explanation left. 3 years with tears in his eyes...??

I'll repeat what I just said:


TheDivineWatermark said:
Let me put it like this:

both Jesus and Paul spoke [or wrote, as in the case with Paul] about both things near and things far.


.... so, depending on CONTEXT, Paul also covered the "things near" (i.e. occurring in their near future--in their own time, their own present-day experience); such is the case with your Acts 20:29-31 passage, see. No one is denying that.

 

[Jackson123]

The "false claim" (v.2) is that the tribulation period [a TIME PERIOD] of judgments unfolding is already present/here. (Compare 2:2 with 1Th5:1-3 [/ Matt24:4 / Mk13:5].)


So, you've got your categories in the wrong slots, and consequently are missing what Paul was actually conveying here. = )

So you believe Paul warn church in tesalonoans that some body lie to them and tell them that tribulation already come, am I correct?

If so why verse one Paul talking about second coming and rapture?

 

[Yahshua]

I'll repeat what I just said:


TheDivineWatermark said:
Let me put it like this:

both Jesus and Paul spoke [or wrote, as in the case with Paul] about both things near and things far.


.... so, depending on CONTEXT, Paul also covered the "things near" (i.e. occurring in their near future--in their own time, their own present-day experience); such is the case with your Acts 20:29-31 passage, see. No one is denying that.

Ok Thanks.

 

[OldSage]

I'll reply bit by bit Yahshua.

What the passage DOES says [brackets mine]

For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [your own countrymen] have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us [the apostles]; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us [apostles] to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their [Jews] sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them [Jews] to the uttermost.

- ^ Paul's language shows his target audience was distinct from Jews AND Gentiles. Acts 17:4 confirms that (1) some believing Jews and (2) many believing gentiles made up the church of Thessalonians. It wasn't just believing Jews, and it wasn't just believing gentiles.

Acts clearly describes Paul going to synagogues and teaching initially in the synagogues.
He says that this was necessary. Why was it necessary?
It was necessary because all other religions in the Roman Empire were ILLEGAL, deemed subversive,
and carried most likely the death penalty. For complex social and political reasons the only religion which was exempt was Judaism - a religio licita. [ Judaism was for example regarded as sophisticated and educated, rather than Barbarian]. However the High Priest had to make offerings in the Temple for Caesar's well-being, this was part of the quid pro quo.

So Christianity could only operate under the aegis of Judaism. Pure and simple.
But obviously there was also a spiritual necessity. The Jews had a chance to repent before the wrath(AD70).

Hellenistic Judaism had for 300 odd years been pursuing a policy of evangelization, which really was a rupture with precedent. [Hellenistic Judaism is a study in itself.] So obviously in every synagogue Paul also encountered a lot of Greeks who had been converted to Judaism. Finally, at a certain point, he got really angry and just walked into the forum and went direct to pagan Greeks, but that happened later.

So his first port of call was always a synagogue, and his initial ministry was always to Jews, whether Jewish Jews or Greek Jews is irrelevant, they were all circumcised old covenant adherents who would go up to Jerusalem for the feasts.

 

[Yahshua]

Hi Yashuah,

Well my initial take-out is that you are not really distinguishing between Israel and the nations.

Romans 2 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Can you see that there are two judgments?

Hence 'to the Jew first'.

The Jews are judged // weighed by the law (i.e. their adherence within the law). Gentiles are judged // weighed (outside the law) by the portion of the law found in their hearts. That portion become the law they are measured by. All hearts will be judged // weighed by the Messiah.


Romans 2:12-16 [brackets mine]
12 For as many as have sinned without [i.e. outside of] law shall also perish without [i.e. outside of] law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law [the Jews, of Israel};

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[Yahshua]

I'll reply bit by bit Yahshua.

OK I'll wait and be back later.

 

[OldSage]

The Jews are judged // weighed by the law (i.e. their adherence within the law). Gentiles are judged // weighed (outside the law) by the portion of the law found in their hearts. That portion become the law they are measured by. All hearts will be judged // weighed by the Messiah.


Romans 2:12-16 [brackets mine]
12 For as many as have sinned without [i.e. outside of] law shall also perish without [i.e. outside of] law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law [the Jews, of Israel};

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rubbish. We are not judged by the Law. We are under grace.
Israel was under the law and was judged by the Law.
This is basic basic stuff.

 

[Jackson123]

Please show me/us where Paul says anything at all about a 7-year tribulation.

Paul not mention 7 year tribulation, but man of din

And man of sin will be reveal at 7 years tribulation rever from Dan and revelation 13

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So you believe Paul warn church in tesalonoans that some body lie to them and tell them that tribulation already come, am I correct?

Essentially, yeah, "[purporting] that THE DAY OF THE LORD [time-period] is ALREADY HERE" (playing out in their experience).

If so why verse one Paul talking about second coming and rapture?

Two issues here, regarding this point ^ :

--v.1 is speaking about Jesus' "PRESENCE / parousia" at the "MEETING [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR" (TO where He will have "descend[ed]") and "OUR" [/ the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY (*ONLY*)] gathering-together / episynagoges [noun] UNTO HIM, THERE (where NO ONE ELSE but US will be in His "PRESENCE" THERE)<---THAT is NOT "His Second Coming to the earth" Rev19 point in time (when "EVERY EYE" existing on the earth "SHALL SEE HIM")

--the reason Paul is referring to "our Rapture" event in verse 1, and the "false claim" in v.2, is because in v.3 he's going on to EXPLAIN how the ONE SUBJECT [noun-event from v.1] *fits* IN RELATION [time-wise / sequence-wise] TO the OTHER SUBJECT [the time-period from v.2's "false claim" purporting that it IS ALREADY PRESENT/HERE].
He says, "ONE THING *FIRST*" before the OTHER Subject (v.2's Subject) can actually BE PRESENT to unfold upon the earth and thus actually be a TRUE claim at that point (instead of the FALSE claim that it is, as of now).






[note: v.8b's "MANIFESTATION of His presence / parousia" IS talking about "His Second Coming to the earth" (when "EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM")... but this is well after the "man of sin BE REVEALED" point in the chronology, which is at the START of the 7-yr Trib (not its END)]