The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[brightfame52]

Christ death accomplished Redemption for His People !

About Redemption, God does not call the redeemed to return to Him[Repentance] in order to be redeemed, but because they are already redeemed Isa 44:22

22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.

Thats done solely by the Blood of Christ Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

God through Christ hath already redeemed Israel, His Chosen in Christ !

Isa 43:1

But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

Isa 44:23

Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.

Lk 1:68

Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

These are not referring to Israel according to the Flesh, Abraham's physical descendants, because they in themselves are not the Children of God Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

But this Israel are all those Chosen in Christ before the Foundation of the world, The Seed of Abraham Gal 3:16

Also its the same with reconciliation, God does not call the reconciled in order to be reconciled, but because they are already objectively reconciled by the Death of God's Son. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

2 Cor 5:18-2060

18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

So the Gospel call goes out to the already redeemed or the already reconciled, now is time for them to receive the Knowledge and comfort of them.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

So the Gospel call goes out to the already redeemed or the already reconciled

If, as you claim, they are "already redeemed" and/or "already reconciled", there is no need for reconciliation

Here is my response to this nonsense you are peddling which was submitted in Post #3 of this thread:

If, as you claim, "the elect" were reconciled to God before they are born, they have no need of reconciliation.​

​

You continue to peddle a false dogma which does not bring the sinner to the Lord Jesus Christ in Whom the sinner is reconciled to God.​

​

Romans 5:10-11 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.​

​

Prior to being born again, all descendants of Adam were "enemies" in need of the redemption which is in Christ Jesus:​

​

Romans 3:​

​

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:​

​

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;​

​

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:​

​

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;​

​

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.​

​

All descendants of Adam have sinned and come short of the glory of God (vs 23).​

​

However, in vs 22 we read that the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe. Those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ ...​

​

And in vs 25 we read that it is the Lord Jesus Christ Who God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood. Again, descendants of Adam who believe ...​

​

Under your scenario, "the elect" do not have to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ because "[e]ven before the elect are born into this world as sinners, they have already ... been reconciled to God" . Quit peddling your false dogma. Read your Bible.​

​

 

[brightfame52]

If, as you claim, they are "already redeemed" and/or "already reconciled", there is no need for reconciliation

Here is my response to this nonsense you are peddling which was submitted in Post #3 of this thread:

If, as you claim, "the elect" were reconciled to God before they are born, they have no need of reconciliation.​

​

You continue to peddle a false dogma which does not bring the sinner to the Lord Jesus Christ in Whom the sinner is reconciled to God.​

​

Romans 5:10-11 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.​

​

Prior to being born again, all descendants of Adam were "enemies" in need of the redemption which is in Christ Jesus:​

​

Romans 3:​

​

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:​

​

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;​

​

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:​

​

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;​

​

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.​

​

All descendants of Adam have sinned and come short of the glory of God (vs 23).​

​

However, in vs 22 we read that the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe. Those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ ...​

​

And in vs 25 we read that it is the Lord Jesus Christ Who God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood. Again, descendants of Adam who believe ...​

​

Under your scenario, "the elect" do not have to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ because "[e]ven before the elect are born into this world as sinners, they have already ... been reconciled to God" . Quit peddling your false dogma. Read your Bible.​

​

You still dont get it !

 

[brightfame52]

No you dont understand the word !

The word receive oft times means that something was given. The word means that:

Heb 11:11

Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

lambanō

1. to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get back

Sara had strength given her by God, put into her, thats how she received it.

A cloud received Christ out of sight Acts 1:9

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Was the cloud active ?

2 Cor 11:24

Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. Was Paul offered the stripes and it was up to him to take them ?

Disobedience received a just reward Heb 2:2

For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

Peole received the mark upon their forehead, it wasnt offered to them Rev 20:24

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

The atonement accomplished the complete salvation for all whom it was offered for, that is the death of Christ.

If this is True, then how is Abraham our Father of Faith? How could anyone be Pure, Righteous, and Holy (in the Old Testament) . . . if Jesus hadn't died yet?

 

[brightfame52]

If this is True, then how is Abraham our Father of Faith? How could anyone be Pure, Righteous, and Holy (in the Old Testament) . . . if Jesus hadn't died yet?

This question doesnt make sense to me. Do you want to discuss the entire post or not ?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

This question doesnt make sense to me. Do you want to discuss the entire post or not ?

No thanks. It sounds like you've got everything figured out for yourself.

 

[brightfame52]

The Lord Jesus Christ of whom Adam was a Type, took the place of a countless multitude of God's Elect, who were given to Him by His Father [Jn 17:2;6:37], and He died on the cross in behalf of them, even though many had yet to be born, and through Him, they have been Redeemed, Justified, Forgiven, Sanctified, Saved and made Righteous by His Blood; For of a Truth they were accepted in the Beloved and Blessed with all Spiritual Blessings [not in their actual persons as of yet, but in their Covenant Head] before time began, in the Lamb of God which was slain from the foundation of the world. Rom 8:29-30; Eph 1:3-7; 2 Tim 1:9; Rev 13:8. For the Spirit in no uncertain terms declares " The works were finished from the foundation of the world" Heb 4:3 ! This reference is regarding creation, but its a parallel with the finished work of Redemption.61

 

[brightfame52]

No thanks. It sounds like you've got everything figured out for yourself.

Fine thats a good way to cop out of discussing my points.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Fine thats a good way to cop out of discussing my points.

Unbelievable. I was discussing a piece of your post.

Can't make this stuff up.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You still dont get it !

oh I get it ... I disagree with your dogma.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Heb 11:11

Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Sarah was barren (Gen 11:30). Sara was 90 years old when God told Abraham that Sarah would have a child (Gen 17:17) ... well past child-bearing years. And in Gen 18:11 we read Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.

Hebrews 11:11 tells us through faith Sarah received. Sarah finally believed the promise of God and because she judged him faithful who had promised God strengthened Sarah

Again, please note ... Sara received strength because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Acts 1:9

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers:

With our thoughts of the relations of the earth to space and the surrounding orbs, we find it hard to follow that upward motion, and to ask what was its direction and where it terminated. We cannot get beyond the cloud; but that cloud was the token of the glory of the Eternal Presence, as the Shechinah that of old filled the Temple (1Kings 8:10-11; Isaiah 6:1-4), and it is enough for us to know that where God is there also is Christ, in the glory of the Father, retaining still, though under new conditions and laws, the human nature which made Him like unto His brethren.​

Benson Commentary:

he was taken up — Was lifted up from the ground, in a miraculous manner, gradually rising higher and higher, till at length a cloud — Conducted probably by the ministry of angels; received him out of their sight — That is, covered him about, and carried him into heaven; not in a sudden, but leisurely manner, that they might behold him departing, and see the proof of his having come down from heaven.​

Meyer's NT Comentary:

The cloud, which received Him (into itself) from before their eyes, is the visible manifestation of the presence of God, who takes to Himself His Son into the glory of heaven.​

Recall Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Peole received the mark upon their forehead, it wasnt offered to them Rev 20:24

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The verse you quoted is Revelation 20:4 ... not Revelation 20:24.

And please note, Rev 20:4 speaks of the people who did not receive the mark.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, andjudgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In Rev 13:16 we read about those who received the mark.

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads

In Rev 13:The word "received" in Rev 13:16 is the Greek word didōmi


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Fine thats a good way to cop out of discussing my points.

Unbelievable. I was discussing a piece of your post.

Can't make this stuff up.

Note brightfame52 wants to discuss his "points". Doesn't appear to be interested in discussing God's points.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

For the Spirit in no uncertain terms declares " The works were finished from the foundation of the world" Heb 4:3 ! This reference is regarding creation, but its a parallel with the finished work of Redemption.

right ... what God wants us to understand doesn't really matter

what matters is what you want to change what God wants us to understand into what you want to understand.

got it

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Note brightfame52 wants to discuss his "points". Doesn't appear to be interested in discussing God's points.

But incredibly, I copied and pasted a piece of his post to discuss. Ummm . . . something isn't right, here.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Do you believe Heb 5:9 teaches a conditional salvation ? Simple yes or no !

already answered here.

Here is what I believe concerning Hebrews 5:9 ...

In order to fully comprehend Hebrews 5:9, we need to go back to Heb 4:14 (and we could go back further to learn about the rest we find in the Lord Jesus Christ) ... however, going back to Heb 4:14, we find that we have a great High Priest Who understands our weaknesses and Who was tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin.


We are then encouraged to approach the throne of grace confidently in order that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need (Hebrews 4:16).


In Hebrews 5, we read about the Lord Jesus Christ and that He is our great High Priest ... that He was called of God (vs 5), that He faced the horrendous trial ... enduring the crucifixion even though He prayed the cup might pass from Him (vs 7 ... nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt - Mark 14:36) ... in suffering as He did in His earthly life, He learned obedience (vs 8) ... He learned to go to His Father in time of need just as we are encouraged to go to the throne of grace in our time of need ...

In vs 9 we are told the Lord Jesus Christ was made perfect through the things He suffered ... as we endure our trials and afflictions, God works in us to perfect, establish, strengthen, settle us (1 Peter 5:6-11). As we endure our trials without wavering, we learn to trust God to bring us through and this is one aspect of the eternal life which has been afforded to us. The Lord Jesus Christ is the author of eternal salvation. As we follow in His footsteps in enduring the trials of affliction we suffer in this lifetime, we continuously throw ourselves before the throne of grace in order that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

We do not obey to obtain eternal life ... we obey because we have eternal life ... the Lord Jesus Christ is eternal life ...


1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

 

[brightfame52]

Christ Death accomplished and obtained Eternal Redemption for us ! Heb 9:12

12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us

Who are the Us ? That would be the Seed of Abraham of whom He came and took on the Seed of Heb 2:16

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Now for this Seed, He obtained Eternal Redemption for !

The word obtained here is the greek word heuriskō and means:


to find out for one's self, to acquire, get, obtain, procure

Here are a couple of other translations:

WNT and once for all entered the Holy place, taking with Him not the blood of goats and calves, but His own blood, and thus procuring eternal redemption for us.

This word procuring also means to secure :

ISV Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood he went into the Holy of Holies once for all and secured our eternal redemption.

The word origin of procure is defined :

"bring about, cause, effect,"

So, The point is , Christ just did not obtain Eternal Redemption for us to merely have it as a possession, but that He would bring about redemptive results, effects.

You see, Heb 8-10 are Chapters describing to its readers the far Superior value of Christ's Priesthood over and above that of the Levitical Priesthood and its results and effects, which fade in comparison to what Christ accomplished with God with His Blood for His People.

So Christ obtained, procured an Eternal Redemption for us, The Seed of Abraham. And He is not stagnated with this redemption, but bequeaths it's benefits upon the Heirs. You see, He procured it for a Purpose !

 

[brightfame52]

Here is what I believe concerning Hebrews 5:9 ...

In order to fully comprehend Hebrews 5:9, we need to go back to Heb 4:14 (and we could go back further to learn about the rest we find in the Lord Jesus Christ) ... however, going back to Heb 4:14, we find that we have a great High Priest Who understands our weaknesses and Who was tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin.


We are then encouraged to approach the throne of grace confidently in order that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need (Hebrews 4:16).


In Hebrews 5, we read about the Lord Jesus Christ and that He is our great High Priest ... that He was called of God (vs 5), that He faced the horrendous trial ... enduring the crucifixion even though He prayed the cup might pass from Him (vs 7 ... nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt - Mark 14:36) ... in suffering as He did in His earthly life, He learned obedience (vs 8) ... He learned to go to His Father in time of need just as we are encouraged to go to the throne of grace in our time of need ...

In vs 9 we are told the Lord Jesus Christ was made perfect through the things He suffered ... as we endure our trials and afflictions, God works in us to perfect, establish, strengthen, settle us (1 Peter 5:6-11). As we endure our trials without wavering, we learn to trust God to bring us through and this is one aspect of the eternal life which has been afforded to us. The Lord Jesus Christ is the author of eternal salvation. As we follow in His footsteps in enduring the trials of affliction we suffer in this lifetime, we continuously throw ourselves before the throne of grace in order that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

We do not obey to obtain eternal life ... we obey because we have eternal life ... the Lord Jesus Christ is eternal life ...


1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

More evasiveness !

 

[reneweddaybyday]

12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us

Who are the Us ?

The words "for us" in Hebrews 9:12 were added to the text by translators.

Here is the verse as it appears in various versions ...


New International Version:

Hebrews 9:12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.


English Standard Version:

Hebrews 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.


King James Version:

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us] the words appear in italics in the KJV to alert the reader that the words were added by the translators.


New King James Version:

Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.


New American Standard Bible:

Hebrews 9:12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all time, having obtained eternal redemption.


American Standard Version:

Hebrews 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.


English Revised Version:

Hebrews 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.


International Standard Version:

Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood he went into the Most Holy Place once for all and secured our eternal redemption.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

More evasiveness !