50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[Absolutely]

Second alleged proof, 14+ minutes into the sermon, "we shall be caught up" (1 Thess. 4:17) happens after the trump of God. Again, Jesus says He returns with the trump of God (Matthew 24:29-31) which makes this being "caught up" post-trib.

His entire sermon is built on a house of cards. The house of cards fell prior to a quarter of the way through the sermon, yet he just keeps talking. Just waiting for a pew warmer to stand up, interrupt his sermon, and rebuke his false doctrine. I won't hold my breath.

So rev 14 ( Jesus on a cloud with a sickle) has a trumpet blown during the gt?
Which is niether the rapture or the 2nd coming on white horses.

Such folly in trumpet based false foundation.

 

[Absolutely]

""Second alleged proof, 14+ minutes into the sermon, "we shall be caught up" (1 Thess. 4:17) happens after the trump of God. Again, Jesus says He returns with the trump of God (Matthew 24:29-31) which makes this being "caught up" post-trib.""

No verses for postrib rapture.
You never had a point.

Sorry

 

[Runningman]

So rev 14 ( Jesus on a cloud with a sickle) has a trumpet blown during the gt?
Which is niether the rapture or the 2nd coming on white horses.

Such folly in trumpet based false foundation.

The scriptures say Jesus returns with the trump of God. Fact.

Revelation 14 happens post-tribulation. What's your point?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I thought this video was great......

How can the video be "great" when 2 Thess 2:1 places the raptue (gathering) with the Second Advent??

The only proof would be a statement showing that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. But there aren't any such verses. There is no proof.

The proof is for a post trib rapture, when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Pretribbers are FORCED to say and believe this since the 'gathering' which is the rapture follows the Trib.

OK then. What do "coming of our Lord" and "gathering to Him" mean in 2 Thess 2:1 if NOT the Second Coming and rapture??

Please explain.

It explains the Rapture. Nothing more. Conflating it with the Second Advent is error.

Well then, you really do have a problem. You admit that the "gathering" in 2 Thess 2:1 refers to a rapture. Yet, you have ignored what immediately precedes this rapture. It is the "coming of our Lord". Why did you ignore this?

It is the Second Advent. So you haven't really answered anything. You have, however, created more problems for your view.

The Rapture is a necessary prerequisite for the unveiling of the man of sin which kicks off the 70th week.

Actually, 2 Thess 2:1-3 says the exact opposite. The revealing of the MOS occurs BEFORE the Second Advent and gathering.

I encourage you to read the verses.

 

[FreeGrace2]

""Second alleged proof, 14+ minutes into the sermon, "we shall be caught up" (1 Thess. 4:17) happens after the trump of God. Again, Jesus says He returns with the trump of God (Matthew 24:29-31) which makes this being "caught up" post-trib.""

Except everyone knows, including yourself, that there is NO mention in 1 Thess 4 about Jesus taking anyone anywhere. It's about "those who belong to Him" (1 Cor 15:23) being with Him forever.

No verses for postrib rapture.
You never had a point.

Unbelievable! 2 Thess 2:1-3 clearly places the rapture with the Second Advent.

You just don't want to see it.

Sorry

I am too. For you.

 

[VCO]

Well, same to you. It really isn't your place to be judging God's servants, but since you want to know I will gladly give you answers to your questions about me.


1. Yes, I have real convictions in my spirit about sin and righteousness.

2. You may recall that the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but the power of God to those who believe.

In other words, head knowledge of the crucifixion of Christ, raising from the dead, and ascending to heaven is not something a natural person can accept. Why? Because no one has ever witnessed it. This is hard to accept unless God sends His Spirit to help. If you have faith in the message of the cross, real genuine faith, it's evidence of a born again spirit. It's a miracle.

3. Ditto. You could also be under the influence of a false teacher. In fact, I would say that's highly likely because you're not able to see a post-trib rapture in the Bible even when it is shown to you.

NO, I do not believe I CAN BE FOOLED by a false teacher! You danced around my questions, with out really addressing them.
That is something a Mormon missionary is good at.

Let me simplify my questions.

Do you believe once you have been truly BORN Again, you have a human Spirit living inside you, as well as the Holy Spirit; and that human Spirit can think too, in your HEART ? ? ?

Or do you only Trust in your own Cognitive Abilities, (your human brain), to sort Truth from Fiction ? ? ?

The REASON I do not think I can be fooled by a false teacher, is that I HAVE A LIVING HUMAN SPIRIT INSIDE OF ME, LISTING TO THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THERE TEACHING ME ALL THINGS. IN OTHER WORDS THE HOLY SPIRIT SIFTS THROUGH, WHAT I HEAR, WEEDING OUT THE FALSE.

John 14:16-18 (KJV)
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 14:26 (KJV)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:7 (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


I TRUST HIM TOTALLY! In fact that Total TRUST IN HIM, is my spiritual gift.
Therefore I do not trust in YOUR theology.

One final question.

Do you honestly Love the Brethren, like me, who absolutely believe in Pre-Treb?

Yes, we do LOVE you, that is why we are trying to reach out to you with the TRUTH.

 

[BenjaminN]

It says after the 7 year trib saints are gathered from heaven.?

I fail to see the rapture in that.

Because it is not the rapture.

The four winds is the atmosphere of earth in the clouds where we will meet Christ at the rapture... the atmosphere of earth is the first heaven, the stars the second heaven and God's dwelling place is the third heaven

Matthew 24 (NKJV)

31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds...

Third heaven:

2 Corinthians 12 (NKJV)

2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 

[BenjaminN]

He probably would not be swayed.
Postrib teachers never go to those bible dynamics.
They are trib and ac centered.
Looking for and waiting for them not Jesus.

Post-tribbers are prayer centred, to receive strength from God to escape through the tribulation, pre-tribbers fail to see the need for prayer to escape through the tribulation. It is to escape through the tribulation, like the Israelites escaped through the ten plagues but the Egyptians did not, although both were present in the land of Egypt.

Luke 21 (ESV)

36But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

[BenjaminN]

No you've got that all wrong. The post tribulation gathering trumpet is for Israelites only.

As TDW has stated endlessly time and time again, see Isaiah 27:12 "Ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel".

Messiah/Christ-believing Israelites (Christians), or false messiah believing Israelites (non-Christians)?

 

[Runningman]

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NO, I do not believe I CAN BE FOOLED by a false teacher! You danced around my questions, with out really addressing them.
That is something a Mormon missionary is good at.

Pride goes before a fall.

Let me simplify my questions.

Do you believe once you have been truly BORN Again, you have a human Spirit living inside you, as well as the Holy Spirit; and that human Spirit can think too, in your HEART ? ? ?

Yes. I'm a human, made in the image of God, with a living human spirit. Like you, my spirit was once unregenerate. God made me born again just like He promised to.

Or do you only Trust in your own Cognitive Abilities, (your human brain), to sort Truth from Fiction ? ? ?

The Holy Spirit speaks to us through the holy Bible. If my thoughts or feelings contradict the written Word of God then I can be sure my thoughts and feelings are not from God. Thoughts and feelings are not a good compass because we can be deceived, but the Word of God will lead you in all truth.

The REASON I do not think I can be fooled by a false teacher, is that I HAVE A LIVING HUMAN SPIRIT INSIDE OF ME, LISTING TO THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THERE TEACHING ME ALL THINGS. IN OTHER WORDS THE HOLY SPIRIT SIFTS THROUGH, WHAT I HEAR, WEEDING OUT THE FALSE.

Good for you. Just make sure that nothing you are being led to believe contradicts the Bible. The Holy Spirit will never contradict Himself. If you are being led to believe something that the Bible cannot confirm, proceed with caution because something more nefarious is clearly at work.

John 14:16-18 (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 14:26 (KJV)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:7 (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

I TRUST HIM TOTALLY! In fact that Total TRUST IN HIM, is my spiritual gift.
Therefore I do not trust in YOUR theology.

Got it. You trust no one who disagrees with you.

One final question.

Do you honestly Love the Brethren, like me, who absolutely believe in Pre-Treb?

Yes I love you and other pre-tribbers. I want the best for you in your life and I do occasionally pray for people here.

Yes, we do LOVE you, that is why we are trying to reach out to you with the TRUTH.

Same to you. I am not paid to be here nor do I get a pat on the back from anyone for doing this. I'm only interested in spreading the Truth too.

 

[cv5]

That's heretical cv5.

In order to exclude the church from Matthew 24, you would need to demote the church to non-elect status. Do you want to do that?

The elect Bride the Church has ALREADY BEEN RAPTURED before the 70th week (this 70th week is that which Jesus exegetes/expands upon in Matt 24) ever occurs.

Your eschatology will NEVER be correct until you understand that Matt 24 DOES NOT speak to the Church. It speaks EXCLUSIVELY to Daniels 70th week.....and ISRAEL!

 

[BenjaminN]

The elect Bride the Church has ALREADY BEEN RAPTURED before the 70th week (this 70th week is that which Jesus exegetes/expands upon in Matt 24) ever occurs.

Your eschatology will NEVER be correct until you understand that Matt 24 DOES NOT speak to the Church. It speaks EXCLUSIVELY to Daniels 70th week.....and ISRAEL!

Cause the Bible tells me so... no because cv5 tells me so... now you better believe that...

 

[VCO]

Pride goes before a fall.



Yes. I'm a human, made in the image of God, with a living human spirit. Like you, my spirit was once unregenerate. God made me born again just like He promised to.



The Holy Spirit speaks to us through the holy Bible. If my thoughts or feelings contradict the written Word of God then I can be sure my thoughts and feelings are not from God. Thoughts and feelings are not a good compass because we can be deceived, but the Word of God will lead you in all truth.



Good for you. Just make sure that nothing you are being led to believe contradicts the Bible. The Holy Spirit will never contradict Himself. If you are being led to believe something that the Bible cannot confirm, proceed with caution because something more nefarious is clearly at work.








Got it. You trust no one who disagrees with you.



Yes I love you and other pre-tribbers. I want the best for you in your life and I do occasionally pray for people here.



Same to you. I am not paid to be here nor do I get a pat on the back from anyone for doing this. I'm only interested in spreading the Truth too.

No, you still do not GET IT. I submit to HIM totally, which means:


Any that I get right or do right, IT IS CHRIST IN ME WHO DID IT!

And anything I do WRONG, I must Confess at as SIN. I am just a Farm Boy WHO absolutely believes in submitting/surrendering to Jesus, and giving HIM the credit for anything GOOD in my life.

 

[Runningman]

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No, you still do not GET IT. I submit to HIM totally, which means:


Any that I get right or do right, IT IS CHRIST IN ME WHO DID IT!

And anything I do WRONG, I must Confess at as SIN. I am just a Farm Boy WHO absolutely believes in submitting/surrendering to Jesus, and giving HIM the credit for anything GOOD in my life.

Well, God's Son is with me and I love Him. How about you?

 

[Runningman]

The elect Bride the Church has ALREADY BEEN RAPTURED before the 70th week (this 70th week is that which Jesus exegetes/expands upon in Matt 24) ever occurs.

Your eschatology will NEVER be correct until you understand that Matt 24 DOES NOT speak to the Church. It speaks EXCLUSIVELY to Daniels 70th week.....and ISRAEL!

The church are in that "elect" category. That means Matthew 24 is also about the church. You seem to espouse a sort of reverse replacement theology. The church is inseparable from spiritual Israel.

 

[VCO]

Well, God's Son is with me and I love Him. How about you?

Do you Believe HE IS GOD himself, the Second Personage in the Holy Trinity, not a lesser god, or offspring of GOD?

OH YES, I LOVE HIM, more than anybody! MORE THAN MY LATE WIFE, who JESUS called HOME to be with HIM, in Nov. 2015.

 

[FreeGrace2]

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NO, I do not believe I CAN BE FOOLED by a false teacher!

Just what Satan loves to hear. Someone who has been fooled to think they can't be fooled.

Yes, we do LOVE you, that is why we are trying to reach out to you with the TRUTH.

In fact, the truth is Scripture itself. And pretribbers have NO verses showing Jesus Christ taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

But it seems that FACT has not yet sunk in for you.

And, to the contrary, 2 Thess 2:1-3 proves that the rapture accompanies the Second Advent.

That is the FACT.

 

[cv5]

The church are in that "elect" category. That means Matthew 24 is also about the church. You seem to espouse a sort of reverse replacement theology. The church is inseparable from spiritual Israel.

Nope... you've got that all wrong. Read Ezekiel ch 36 & 37. Are those chapters pertaining to the future of the Church? Israel? Both? None? What?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The church are in that "elect" category. That means Matthew 24 is also about the church.

That's like saying "the angels are in that "elect" category [per 1Tim5:21 - "21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels ..." ]. That means Matthew 24 is also about "the angels" [also being the ones "gathered" in that text]."


NOT.