Unconditional love and the church's approach to homosexuality

[ewq1938]

Hell is eventually thrown into the LoF.

That's the type of hell that is known as Hades being thrown into the type of hell called Gehenna which is the lake of fire .

Don't forget Sheol The Bible also speaks of a place called the Abyss, or the pit.

Sheol is the Hebrew name for Hades. The Abyss and pit are known as tartaroo in the Greek.

 

[know1]

I believe that the way many churches and Christians approach the issue of homosexuality is unbiblical.

Churches market themselves as offering unconditional love.
However, all too often they use a bait and switch tactic whereby they offer unconditional love to tempt people in and yet once 'captured', it is discovered that this love and acceptance is conditional on the newcomer changing in whichever way the church 'elders' dictate they should change.
If the church member doesn't change, they may find that they are not included in ways that they were before.

This is manipulation and spiritual abuse, and is absolutely not the kind of unconditional love offered by Jesus.

Before anybody says that homosexuality is forbidden by the Bible and that I'm "ignoring scripture"...
Prostitution is also forbidden in the Bible, and we all know how Jesus asked people not to throw stones and cast judgement.

You see, Jesus uses love to define scripture, and yet humans use scripture to define love.

Jesus reached out to the marginalised, and yet we reach out to condemn.
Perhaps it's in our fallen nature to want to play God?

Lastly, the reason I'm sticking up for homosexuals and using them as an example here is not because I'm gay myself, just as the reason why I'm against racism is not because I am black.

If Jesus' Love was unconditional, then why did he say, "If you keep my commandments, then you shall abide in my love, even as I have kept my father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Not only was jesus's love conditional, but so was also God's love toward Jesus conditional. The condition being, keeping God's commandments. In other words, conforming to God's ways.
Notice how one is to conform to God's ways to abide in His love, one of which is being holy, even as Jesus had to be the way God the Father is, in order to abide in His love. And being a homosexual and doing homosexual acts is not like God in the least.
And I see this thread as a propaganda tool to sway the church's opinion toward the acceptance of homosexuality, rather than accepting the fact that God finds homosexuality itself an abomination.
It is written in Matthew 5:19, whosoever shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven.
You are attempting to teach men so.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your once repented always repented is absent of proper scriptures to validate such thinking.

What about...maintain until the end.

Keep the faith.

....fight the good fight.

Allow no man to cause you to loose your crowns.

....sacrifice for forgiveness is not available where sin is present.

Many, many others.

We can loose our born again status and loose the free eternal salvation offered to us.

Non of them concern salvation

they are all aspects of sanctification

youir mixing christian growth with new birth,

that’s no different than what the Jews did or tried to do.and paul shut them down with his words

please listen to paul.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I know that. But ask yourself if he applies the 'salvation can be lost' to himself

he asks about limited atonement

and then posts this in response to me



seems clear enough.

those are Calvinism expressions. "traditional" Calvinists actually do adhere to behavioral issues with regards to salvation

since he insists on playing hide and seek, the entire collection of his responses, for the most part, are geared to believing he has a superior belief and the rest of us are simply for his amusement

he is not fooling anyone if that is his aim...which I doubt

Personally I think he is playing with us

no calvinist would ever even think salvation could be lost

they are elected to salvation, they were born again,then able to come to faith, so they could not possibly turn away, because Gods soverignty willed them to heaven they have no free will

just saying sis. Don’t let him get to you

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, Christ is the saviour, yes you're guaranteed salvation IF you follow his word.

When you add the word IF, your placing the onus of salvation on your shoulders, and removing them from Gods, your trying to save yourself by doing instead of allowing God to save you based on what he did.

I think the point I'm not making clearly here is that you can't just go and get baptised and then live the life of a Columbian drug Lord and expect to get to heaven because of John's promise.

To the average Christian whom gets baptised, reads the gospel, repents of their sins regularly and tries to make up for then with an open, honest and sorrowful heart you are indeed 100% correct. You can't lose that promise.

I'm talking about the belligerent, dishonest, Prideful person whom thinks they can use the promise of baptism to lead a life of doing whatever appeals to the flesh. AKA the false doctrine of Hypergrace.

I M sure and hope you believe water baptism has never saved a soul, I would agree however, you can’t do that, nore would you if you had true faith,

when you have true faith and are baptized by God himself, then you get baptized, do good works have a changed life etc etc. because it is God who works in you, not yu trying to do it yourself, where you will fail

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The lake of fire was prepaired for Satan and his angels

the humans who die in a state where Satan is their father, will join them there,

 

[Rosemaryx]

Jude 1 :24
Now all glory to God, who is able to keep you from falling away and will bring you with great joy into his glorious presence without a single fault.

...xox...

 

[Mark47Oz]

When you add the word IF, your placing the onus of salvation on your shoulders, and removing them from Gods, your trying to save yourself by doing instead of allowing God to save you based on what he did.

Ahh this is where we disagree. I believe that God has given us free will and lets us choose. You are suggesting God violates that free will upon Baptism and takes away our choice to walk away if we were so stupid as to want to. Go ask the Muslims, Buddhists, New Agers and Atheists et al how many Christians have swapped ranks and joined with them. What happens to them?

I resolutely believe that God lets us choose our own destiny, even after baptism and one possible destiny is hell if we are so stupid as to squander what God so graciously gives us.

I M sure and hope you believe water baptism has never saved a soul, I would agree however, you can’t do that, nore would you if you had true faith,

when you have true faith and are baptized by God himself, then you get baptized, do good works have a changed life etc etc. because it is God who works in you, not yu trying to do it yourself, where you will fail

Yes on this point we agree, God baptises a soul with the Holy Spirit too. This is what the water baptism does; it washes away our sin and the stain of the original sin and prepares the way for the Holy Spirit to enter our lives, just like when John Baptised Jesus in the river.

When the spirit enters you, you are changed and if you stay the course, you cannot be unsaved. But again, free will was the greatest gift God gave us. And he will let us exercise it and walk away even at this point. God never takes prisoners. Only Satan does.

What I am alluding to in my argument is the great falling away. Churches around the Western world are falling empty, being shuttered and being sold off to be used for something else. Heck, in my village there are no less than 5 churches. Not a single one of them is open anymore to regular worship. In the next two villages the churches are gone too. The main town nearby has several empty churches. This is all in spite of the fact that population is growing down in this area. What happened to all the people who used to go to these places of worship? I know for a fact they're not all dead because I have met many who have said 'oh yeah, I USED to go to that church, but I dunno, I just stopped going I guess' Where are they going to end up upon death?

 

[Unearthed]

If Jesus' Love was unconditional, then why did he say, "If you keep my commandments, then you shall abide in my love, even as I have kept my father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Not only was jesus's love conditional, but so was also God's love toward Jesus conditional. The condition being, keeping God's commandments. In other words, conforming to God's ways.
Notice how one is to conform to God's ways to abide in His love, one of which is being holy, even as Jesus had to be the way God the Father is, in order to abide in His love. And being a homosexual and doing homosexual acts is not like God in the least.
And I see this thread as a propaganda tool to sway the church's opinion toward the acceptance of homosexuality, rather than accepting the fact that God finds homosexuality itself an abomination.
It is written in Matthew 5:19, whosoever shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven.
You are attempting to teach men so.

Firstly, nobody on this thread is seeking to 'justify' homosexuality or claim that it isn't a sin.

Secondly, what commandments do we have to keep in order to receive salvation?

 

[SophieT]

mr 1938

The verse says the fire is prepared for the devil and his angels not that it was made only for them. The lake of fire is for humans as I have already proven.

LOL! notice it does not say AND people. honest to pete smh

whatever

 

[SophieT]

Personally I think he is playing with us

no calvinist would ever even think salvation could be lost

they are elected to salvation, they were born again,then able to come to faith, so they could not possibly turn away, because Gods soverignty willed them to heaven they have no free will

just saying sis. Don’t let him get to you

could be that he is

get to me? he's actually funny

no worries

I have actually studied Calvinism...when you learn about Calvin himself, you find it hard to understand how anyone could possibly adhere to what he believed

 

[SophieT]

The lake of fire was prepaired for Satan and his angels

the humans who die in a state where Satan is their father, will join them there,

aww never mind

I think he and Magenta can duke it out. they seem to have similar traits

 

[SophieT]

If Jesus' Love was unconditional, then why did he say, "If you keep my commandments, then you shall abide in my love, even as I have kept my father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Not only was jesus's love conditional, but so was also God's love toward Jesus conditional. The condition being, keeping God's commandments. In other words, conforming to God's ways.
Notice how one is to conform to God's ways to abide in His love, one of which is being holy, even as Jesus had to be the way God the Father is, in order to abide in His love. And being a homosexual and doing homosexual acts is not like God in the least.
And I see this thread as a propaganda tool to sway the church's opinion toward the acceptance of homosexuality, rather than accepting the fact that God finds homosexuality itself an abomination.
It is written in Matthew 5:19, whosoever shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven.
You are attempting to teach men so.

have you read beyond the gospels? that will help you to understand salvation, which is NOT something we earn or keep by being good little boys 'n girls

what were Jesus commandments? the 10? better look deeper if you think that. and by the way, Jesus commandments were actually a summation of the 10....which are actually all about love. yeah I know people have a hard time seeing that because we know how bad we are

and how holy are you exactly? 50%? 80? 99? well, you would have to be 100% to be acceptable to God if it actually meant be just like God...so

and you are right. homosexuality is not acceptable but neither is any other sin. so there's that

And I see this thread as a propaganda tool to sway the church's opinion toward the acceptance of homosexuality, rather than accepting the fact that God finds homosexuality itself an abomination.

well is it working? better read the thread if you think so. besides, most of the church is not on this forum

looking forward to your replies

 

[SophieT]

Not only was jesus's love conditional, but so was also God's love toward Jesus conditional. The condition being, keeping God's commandments. In other words, conforming to God's ways.

this deserves its own reply. please supply scripture...not an interpretation of scripture...that indicates Jesus and God only love conditionally

HINT: does the Bible say God is love? or does the Bible say God is conditional love?

 

[JerryInBoston]

you deny John 3:16?

understanding that God gives us a choice does not mean He is not sovereign as you seem to understand it

would you make God out as some kind of monster who creates some for the pit of hell and smiles on others?

God wants none to perish, but for all to come to repentance and faith. But God also knows the beginning to the end, which includes the knowledge of the many who will end up in hell for rejecting the truth. For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son so that anyone who believes might be saved. Not all will believe; not all will be saved; God knows already who will perish and who will live? The ones who live eternally are whom God's word calls the "elect."

 

[BillG]

God wants none to perish, but for all to come to repentance and faith. But God also knows the beginning to the end, which includes the knowledge of the many who will end up in hell for rejecting the truth. For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son so that anyone who believes might be saved. Not all will believe; not all will be saved; God knows already who will perish and who will live? The ones who live eternally are whom God's word calls the "elect."

So you are saying that you believe that God knows in advance who will be saved and not?

If so I am in agreement.
Caveat though is we don't so it's no an excuse to sit back and do nothing.
We talk the talk whilst walking the walk.

Interesting though you say "Might be saved"
I cannot see might in the verse.

What I see is "should not perish or will not perish"
Depending on what Bible you read.

 

[CS1]

many professing Christians have already taken on the worldly narrative concerning this sexual sin, and sexual preference.
In the very language many even here have said repeatedly " LGBTQ people".

They have agreed that a sexual preference ( Biblically known as pervesion) is in some way like a race of people. They have become self-deceived to accept this false narrative for many reasons.

they have family who is bound by this,
they are AFRAID to lose their job or suffer persecution for standing with the word of God;
calling it "sin", and those who practice such things will not enter into The Kingdom of God.

Many have removed the holiness of God to make HIM accept their addiction out of HIS love.

Again there is no such thing as a gay Christian.

Just because a fornicator remains celibate or a homosexual is celibate yet remains one in their heart Jesus said there is no difference from one who does the act over one who thinks on the acts.

God is not impressed with our ability to be celibate and still have a heart full of perversion.

You are free and you are submitting to God resisting the devil and HE is fleeing from you

or you are willfully participating in sin.

Some here have said

" unless you are gay you can't understand",

that is a lie from the pit of Hell,

Jesus was tempted in all points as the man was and HE did not sin,

Jesus did not have to be a drunkard, a fornicator, or gay to understand the torment of addictions and sin.

there was no man ever born who suffered more than Jesus did for another sin, addiction, and perversion.

He fully understands and yet HE said go and sin no more, less something worst happens to you.

 

[SophieT]

So you are saying that you believe that God knows in advance who will be saved and not?

If so I am in agreement.
Caveat though is we don't so it's no an excuse to sit back and do nothing.
We talk the talk whilst walking the walk.

Interesting though you say "Might be saved"
I cannot see might in the verse.

What I see is "should not perish or will not perish"
Depending on what Bible you read.

thing is though, Jerry states this in another post:

You deny that God has the soveign authority to elect who will be saved?

suggesting the opposite of what he just said

interesting

 

[JerryInBoston]

no it is not.

“Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41


I wish some of you would learn to read instead of getting all excited and think you found some kind of reason to get your undies in a knot



no one said that no one goes to hell. God did not make hell for people though as Matthew plainly says and if you refuse Christ, you will join the devil there

oh would you look at the time...think I'll turn in

Turn in to what? (On second thought; I don't think I want to know the answer).

 

[JerryInBoston]

thing is though, Jerry states this in another post:



suggesting the opposite of what he just said

interesting

How is that opposite?