Shroud of Turin—real or fake, and why?

[ResidentAlien]

According to the Jewish burial custom of the time, bodies were wrapped in strips of cloth. For example, in John 11:44, Lazarus is described as being wrapped in "linen strips."

But the accounts in the gospels differ. The synoptics take their cues from Mark, saying He was wrapped in a linen shroud provided by Joseph of Arimathea. John, however, says "they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews."

In John 20:6-7, when Peter and John rushed to the tomb, it says: "Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus’ head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself."

If there was a face cloth that was separate from the rest, then this obviously couldn't refer to the Shroud of Turin since it (the Shroud of Turin) is all one piece. John's gospel is the only one that records this detail.

I have mixed feelings. The shroud is a negative image of a person. If it's a forgery, how would that have even been done (in negative I mean)? But the idea of a single piece of cloth runs counter to the burial customs of the Jews at the time. However, Matthew, Mark and Luke says they wrapped Him in a linen shroud.

What are your opinions?

 

[CherieR]

“Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

https://www.bible.com/bible/1/jhn.20.6-7.kjv

For this passage it appears to me at least to be two cloths because the cloth that was about his head is separated from the other clothing.

I don’t think the shroud of Turin is authentic.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I don’t think the shroud of Turin is authentic.

But you have to admit that it is an extremely good fake. And in these days of fakery and hoaxes, that is all that matters.

 

[Magenta]

The Shroud of Turin, also known as the Holy Shroud , is a length of linen cloth bearing the negative image of a man. Some claim the image depicts Jesus of Nazareth and the fabric is the burial shroud in which he was wrapped after crucifixion. First mentioned in 1354, the shroud was denounced in 1389 by the local bishop of Troyes as a fake. Currently the Catholic Church neither formally endorses nor rejects the shroud, and in 2013 Pope Francis referred to it as an “icon of a man scourged and crucified”. The shroud has been kept in the royal chapel of the Cathedral of Turin, in northern Italy, since 1578.

In 1988, radiocarbon dating established that the shroud was from the Middle Ages, between the years 1260 and 1390. All hypotheses put forward to challenge the radiocarbon dating have been scientifically refuted, including the medieval repair hypothesis, the bio-contamination hypothesis and the carbon monoxide hypothesis. The image on the shroud is much clearer in black-and-white negative—first observed in 1898—than in its natural sepia color. A variety of methods have been proposed for the formation of the image, but the actual method used has not yet been conclusively identified. The shroud continues to be both intensely studied and controversial. From wiki

 

[Nehemiah6]

What are your opinions?

The origin of the Shroud of Turin is from somewhere in the Middle Ages. Nowhere in Scripture is there any record of any of the artifacts surrounding the cross and the tomb. Chances are that those two angels who appeared at the tomb removed the evidence of Christ being laid in that tomb. Just like the Ark of the Covenant is now in Heaven (probably removed by angels also).

The Catholic church -- since its inception -- majored on superstitions, and relics were a part of those superstitions. The Shroud is is one of those relics.

 

[Gideon300]

According to the Jewish burial custom of the time, bodies were wrapped in strips of cloth. For example, in John 11:44, Lazarus is described as being wrapped in "linen strips."

But the accounts in the gospels differ. The synoptics take their cues from Mark, saying He was wrapped in a linen shroud provided by Joseph of Arimathea. John, however, says "they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews."

In John 20:6-7, when Peter and John rushed to the tomb, it says: "Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus’ head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself."

If there was a face cloth that was separate from the rest, then this obviously couldn't refer to the Shroud of Turin since it (the Shroud of Turin) is all one piece. John's gospel is the only one that records this detail.

I have mixed feelings. The shroud is a negative image of a person. If it's a forgery, how would that have even been done (in negative I mean)? But the idea of a single piece of cloth runs counter to the burial customs of the Jews at the time. However, Matthew, Mark and Luke says they wrapped Him in a linen shroud.

What are your opinions?

It is of no importance. If people reject the gospel, a shroud is not going to change their mind, even if it is genuine. I've seen a documentary that is very convincing that it is real, and another that throws cold water on the idea. So God knows the truth and the gospel is the power of God to bring about salvation. I've come to the conclusion that ark research, where Israel crossed the Red Sea, the archaelogy of the Middle East are interesting but of little spiritual value.

 

[jb]

Shroud of Turin—real or fake, and why?

Doesn't matter a jot, one way or the other!

 

[ResidentAlien]

The Catholic church -- since its inception -- majored on superstitions, and relics were a part of those superstitions. The Shroud is is one of those relics.

True. That's one thing that makes me put a mark in the fake column.

 

[Magenta]

True. That's one thing that makes me put a mark in the fake column.

This thread also brought to mind "Veronica's veil" which is celebrated in the
sixth station of the cross in many Anglican, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist
and Western Orthodox churches... but nowhere found in the Bible. No one
by the name of Veronica is even mentioned in the Bible, nor is any such
act as described in this tale alluded to in Scripture.

 

[PC123]

Has anyone ever been able to demonstrate how this shroud was faked?
If not then the its possible that the shroud is genuine

 

[DeanM]

If the shroud is not a fake, which it probably is, there is still nothing to tie it to Jesus. I wonder how many dead people were wrapped in shrouds in those times? Its a nice story.

 

[Magenta]

Has anyone ever been able to demonstrate how this shroud was faked?

See post #4 above

 

[ResidentAlien]

If the shroud is not a fake, which it probably is, there is still nothing to tie it to Jesus. I wonder how many dead people were wrapped in shrouds in those times? Its a nice story.

Wikipedia shows an enhanced image someone made of the man in the shroud. If it's Jesus I'd expect to see a lot more damage to His face and more blood than what this image shows.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe..._color_information_708_x_465_pixels_94_KB.jpg

 

[DeanM]

Wikipedia shows an enhanced image someone made of the man in the shroud. If it's Jesus I'd expect to see a lot more damage to His face and more blood than what this image shows.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe..._color_information_708_x_465_pixels_94_KB.jpg

Looks too normal size also. After the thorns and beating Jesus took I hate to think of the swelling of his head..

 

[PC123]

See post #4 above

There is carbon dating but who knows what purposes those scientists had... "Science" can barley be trusted.

My conclusion remains the same.
The shroud could be authentic.

If not then it's a really mysterious piece of artwork. Something genius

But if its fake then show us how it was faked. It's the only way in my book. Till then it's possible

 

[Magenta]

There is carbon dating but who knows what purposes those scientists had... "Science" can barley be trusted.
My conclusion remains the same.
The shroud could be authentic.
If not then it's a really mysterious piece of artwork. Something genius

But if its fake then show us how it was faked. It's the only way in my book. Till then it's possible

How could it be shown to be fake in some way you would not dismiss as being untrustworthy?

The scientists were obviously given the shroud by the RCC.

Right there many would say: RCC cannot be trusted.

 

[PC123]

How could it be shown to be fake in some way you would not dismiss as being untrustworthy?

Easy... Replicate it... Show us how it was faked... What method was used
How can one say its a fake without even knowing how it was faked?

The scientists were obviously given the shroud by the RCC.

Right there many would say: RCC cannot be trusted.

No one can be trusted... LoL...

If it was faked then demonstrated how it was faked... Until then it could possibly be authentic in my book

 

[Adstar]

According to the Jewish burial custom of the time, bodies were wrapped in strips of cloth. For example, in John 11:44, Lazarus is described as being wrapped in "linen strips."

But the accounts in the gospels differ. The synoptics take their cues from Mark, saying He was wrapped in a linen shroud provided by Joseph of Arimathea. John, however, says "they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews."

In John 20:6-7, when Peter and John rushed to the tomb, it says: "Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus’ head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself."

If there was a face cloth that was separate from the rest, then this obviously couldn't refer to the Shroud of Turin since it (the Shroud of Turin) is all one piece. John's gospel is the only one that records this detail.

I have mixed feelings. The shroud is a negative image of a person. If it's a forgery, how would that have even been done (in negative I mean)? But the idea of a single piece of cloth runs counter to the burial customs of the Jews at the time. However, Matthew, Mark and Luke says they wrapped Him in a linen shroud.

What are your opinions?

I think it is most likely a fake because of the scriptures and i also know that many fake relics where fabricated in the dark ages to act as a draw for pilgrims to come to a location.. Many people made a lot of money from the pilgrimage industry in those times.. Just as tourism makes a lot of money for famous locations in the world today..

In any case fake or not it has no effect on my confidence in the truth of the Gospel that saves

 

[DeanM]

I think it is most likely a fake because of the scriptures and i also know that many fake relics where fabricated in the dark ages to act as a draw for pilgrims to come to a location.. Many people made a lot of money from the pilgrimage industry in those times.. Just as tourism makes a lot of money for famous locations in the world today..

In any case fake or not it has no effect on my confidence in the truth of the Gospel that saves

"Many people made a lot of money"
There is the best answer so far.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I think it is most likely a fake because of the scriptures

What do you make of the fact that the synoptics (Matthew, Mark and Luke) disagree with John on the method of burial?

The synoptics say He was wrapped in a "shroud" and John says he was wrapped "in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews."