Was Paul a Torah observant Jew?
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I am a poster that has been attacked over and over for loving the law. It doesn't become a discussion, but an all out war. I have many war scars. You are speaking the truth from scripture, it is blessing for this site. You are doing a spectacular job of reporting what the Lord tells us.
Romans 8:31 If the Lord is with us who can be against us?
How does everyone reconcile this discussion with Matthew 5?
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
I know the blood of Jesus gets you to Heaven. But should we not follow GODs commands, not Jewish Religious Law? You would not believe what an Evil Devil bound for Hell I am because I believe we should. I was told they are allowed to disparage me becasue Jesus did it. I don't believe Jesus disparaged people out of anger or malice towards them. I read all through the New Testament bout blessed are those who keep the faith and the commands of GOD.
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
I know the blood of Jesus gets you to Heaven. But should we not follow GODs commands, not Jewish Religious Law? You would not believe what an Evil Devil bound for Hell I am because I believe we should. I was told they are allowed to disparage me becasue Jesus did it. I don't believe Jesus disparaged people out of anger or malice towards them. I read all through the New Testament bout blessed are those who keep the faith and the commands of GOD.
Thank you, Blik, for your words. I really appreciate them. And that's right! You've been here for a while and can remember those (un)civil wars too lol. Yeah I don't miss them as they weren't discussions at all, but you kept soldiering on sister (while admittedly I've stay away from the topic). A testament to your strength.
At one point Paul did observe the Torah, but it appears to me that he preached a message that nullified most of the Law. He occasionally preached some of the 10 commandments, but never summarized all 10 as a requirement.
For exanple, he excused people from keeping the Sabbath, basically saying it's an option depending of your conscience.
He also went on to say in another place "all things are permissable for me, but not all things are beneficial" and "whatever you do, do for the glory of God."
To me, Paul preached a message of freedom, grace, and faith.
Paul nullified the law written in stone, written in terms of the earth instead of terms of the spirit. But the law of the spirit was symbolized by the law in stone. Paul never. ever, was against the spirit of the law. The spirit of the law is the true law that is, was, and ever will be.
What is of God is eternal, everlasting, and the OT is eternal and everlasting. When the new covenant was given through Christ, we were given the ability to read the OT with new covenant eyes. We can see the spiritual in the symbolism of the OT if we put on Christ. The law and commands in stone becomes spiritual laws expressed in the way of stone.
Laugh out loud, smack your head or whatever, the fact remains, Acts of faith are that which is pleasing to the Lord,...
Hebrews 11:1-2 (NASB) Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval.
Hebrews 11:6 (NASB) And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
Romans 3:31 (NASB) Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
Galatians 3:2 (NASB) This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Galatians 3:12 (NASB) However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."
Galatians 3:25 (NASB) But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.(law)
^ True.
^ True.
^ True. Please read this again.
^ True. Please put this verse in your own words for me. I'd like to see if we're reading it the same.
^True.
^ True.
Paul never preached against the law or failed to observe it.
You're just not understanding the scriptures which Paul wrote above then. For they speak salvation by faith vs. the works of the Law. Yes Paul did speak against observing the law. Did you not read the scripture that I provided for you where Paul, speaking of the works of the law and considering those things as refuse?
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If anyone else thinks he has grounds for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin; a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6as to zeal, persecuting the church; as to righteousness in the law, faultless.
7But whatever was gain to me I count as loss for the sake of Christ. 8More than that, I count all things as loss compared to the surpassing excellence of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God on the basis of faith.
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So, in Philippians 3:4-6 Paul is speaking about his zeal for the law and everything related, namely, his being a Hebrews of Hebrews, from the tribe of Benjamin, a Pharisee of Pharisee's, etc., Of those things he then says that he counts them as 'rubbish' not trusting in his own righteousness (observance of the law and all things related) but to know Christ through faith, the righteousness from God based on faith. So how can you claim that Paul never preached against the Law or failed to observe it when he counts it all as rubbish?
When those so-called believing Pharisees were teaching "you must be circumcised and made to obey the law given to Moses," it brought sharp disagreement with Paul and Barnabas, i.e. they were not in agreement with it. Then they brought this before the counsel in Jerusalem and the following was concluded:
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"Then some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2And after engaging these men in sharp debate, Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question."
Sharp debate would mean that Paul and Barnabas were not in agreement with the Pharisees who were claiming that the Gentile believers must be circumcised and made to obey the law of Moses. Again, how can you say that Paul did not speak against the law, when in fact he is doing so in the scripture above?
But some believers from the party of the Pharisees stood up and declared, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.” 6So the apostles and elders met to look into this matter.
7After much discussion, Peter got up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you that the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, showed His approval by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for He cleansed their hearts by faith.
10Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
In the scripture above, Peter is referring to when He was sent to the Cornelius' household, where while Peter was still speaking the gospel, the Holy Spirit fell on them all speaking in languages and prophesying. These are just a few examples and there many others that I previously listed regarding faith vs. the works of the Law.
Don't read these scriptures and ignore their meanings, but understand what is being said!
https://christianchat.com/threads/was-paul-a-torah-observant-jew.200253/post-4604255
^ Did you read any of this at all?
I could ask you the same question and in fact did!
You're obviously not getting it. I can tell you that if you are claiming to keep the law of Moses, you are not. And when you fail at keeping the law, it brings wrath. Jesus did not appear on the earth as a human being to fulfill the law in order to perpetuate it, but to fulfill it and bring it to its end. We are not under two covenants.
"You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."
The above is Paul speaking against those observing the law in order to be made righteous.
Everyday when I get up, I do not get up and think of the ten commandments or any of the other 600 laws that I must observe. I follow Christ and am led by the Spirit. I am not under the law. I fulfill the law through faith in Christ, but I am not subject to it. My hope is in Christ as the one who met the righteous requirements of the Law on my behalf, the One who took upon himself the wrath that I deserve, the One who paid the penalty for my sins by the shedding of His blood. I do not trust in the keeping of the works of the law to be justified before God, but look to Christ's finished work. Jesus stands before God the Father representing me and all believers as a perfect human being. When we confessed Him, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God, not by keeping the works of the law, but by having faith the One who kept the works of the law perfectly on our behalf. Jesus warns about those who will expect to enter into the kingdom of God by their own efforts:
"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’
In the scripture above, their own words "did we not" tells us why they will not be able to enter into the kingdom of God and that because they will have been trusting in their own works "did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?" Jesus used this as an example and anything can be referenced such as "did we not abstain from certain foods and did we not keep the Sabbath on Saturday and did we not and did we not and did we not! It's not about what we have done, but about what the Lord has done. The right answer would have been "but Lord, Lord, did You not shed Your blood for us?"
Not being under the law does not mean free will to sin. In fact, no one who is truly in Christ is going to use that as reason to freely sin. But when we do sin, i.e. break any of God's laws, we confess them and He is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness. Now under the law you would have had to offer a sacrifice. Our shed blood sacrifice is Jesus and He is always speaking to the Father on our behalf as a living sacrifice.
As we continue from faith to faith, following after Christ and led by the Spirit, we are being transformed into His image, not by keeping the law, but by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, i.e. the process of being made holy.
wider why it is that salvation by faith is pitted AGAINST obeying the Lord? There is not one scripture that tells us faith is against works, not one.
If you did read my post your question as to whether I read all of the passages posed to me would've been answered, Ahwatukee.
----I added each passage you shared with me below in [orange brackets] along with my own added----
Q: What. does. salvation. mean?
A: Salvation. means. delivery. from. penalty. of. sin (i.e. breaking God's law).
A: Salvation. means. making. one. righteous again. from. sin-guilt.
No law.....in the history of the existence of everything.....ANYWHERE......no matter the kingdom....or government....or society.....for all time....can EVER deliver a person from the penalty of a law ONCE BROKEN.
No law.....in the history of the existence of everything.....ANYWHERE......no matter the kingdom....or government....or society.....for all time....can EVER make a person right again from a guilty verdict by a law ONCE BROKEN.
No law.....in the history of the existence of everything.....ANYWHERE......no matter the kingdom....or government....or society.....for all time....can EVER make a person right again from a guilty verdict by a law ONCE BROKEN.
GUILTY is GUILTY is GUILTY ONCE BROKEN.
^ This is Paul's message regarding Almighty's law. This statement of truth that Paul frequently makes is NOT....I repeat....NOT speaking or preaching against the law. It is STATING A UNIVERSAL FACT about LAWS that 100% applies to Almighty's law too.
Laws are meant to show what CRIME is [Rom 3:20]. That is their function. That is their ONLY function. No Law CAN'T MAKE a person INNOCENT AGAIN (right again) once BROKEN. No law can save a person from their crime. NO LAW HAS THAT POWER [Rom 8:3]. The guilty person needs to either pay for the crime themselves OR be forgiven of the crime ONCE A LAW IS BROKEN.
Enter need for a Savior/Justifier when that price is too big.
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Q: How does One PROPHESY...FORECAST...PROMISE what that Savior is SPECIFICALLY going to do to SAVE/JUSTIFY?
A: Add laws for the transgression [Gal 3:19] that MUST be PERFORMED/REHEARSED - year after year after year - as a MEMORIAL, until the one (that those SPECIFIC laws PROMISED) actually comes. When He comes...there's no longer a need to perform those rehearsals anymore.
^ "WORKS OF THE LAW" (i.e. sacrifices...cleansing rites...fleshy circumcision...blood rituals...death of person...etc.) were ADDED.
^^^^^AFTER SAVIOR COMES no more need to do these ^^^^^
Problem: [Gal 3:2, 12, 25; Acts 15] Some Jews - who had been doing ^^these^^ all their lives - KEPT doing them AFTER Messiah, and also TAUGHT new gentile believers that they needed to do these too AFTER Messiah. This is false. A change was now made to the eternally-existing law, as explained by Paul. Messiah is performing the true form of ^^these^^ added laws, but in heaven now. So to continue to perform the rehearsals on earth is not having FAITH in the Messiah doing the heavenly work of CLEANSING/JUSTIFYING/FORGIVING/SAVING.
Through faith in Messiah [Heb 11:1-2, 6; Rom 3:31; Phil 3:9], the result is an innocent man or woman in the eyes of the law. They are no longer UNDER THE PENALTY/CURSE of the LAW...but what's next?
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Q: What's expected of an innocent person regarding God's law after they're cleansed/justified/forgiven/saved?
A: The same thing that's expected of a person in ANY society after they are no longer guilty in the eyes of a law. They are EXPECTED TO OBEY the law to not fall into crime again.
Scriptures:
[John 8:11]"Go and sin no more."
[James 2:18]"I will show you faith by my works."
[Titus 2:14]"Ready a people zealous for good works."
[Rev 14:12]"This is the patience of the saints that they obey the commandments and have faith in Messiah."
...and to aid in ^^this task of obedience^^ Messiah sends the Holy Spirit and gives grace...
Titus 2:12
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
----End----
As far as Philippians 3; Paul wasn't speaking against the law, he was speaking against his flesh (i.e. his life, position, status as a high ranking Jew & Pharisee in this world). His point begins in Philippians 1:
Philippians 1:21-26
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
^ Paul didn't really want to be alive in the world. He cared not for his life IN THE FLESH here anymore. Then he warns the brethren...
Philippians 3:4-6 [brackets mine]
Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. For WE are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4 Though I might [i.e. Paul could very well] also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
^Paul was giving his life's credentials IN THE FLESH, saying if anyone can tout their lives he could. This wasn't a statement about the law, rather, being blameless in obedience in the law was just one of the things Paul could boast about his life. But Paul says his life and all he has in the flesh is nothing compared to knowledge of Messiah.
Philippians 3:7-8 [brackets mine]
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
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Paul did not preach against the law or fail to observe it.
I wish that you guys would stop with the BOLDING OF WORDS as though it was going to some how make what you are saying more believable.
Let's make this simple. Do you believe that we are under the law to keep the works of the law as a means of salvation. Or, are we saved by grace through faith without the works of the law?
It is the salvation by grace through faith vs. the works of the law that Paul was speaking against, as I demonstrated from scripture over and over again.[/QUOTE]
The bolding and font change of words in scripture isn't to make it believable, it's to point out what clearly isn't being seen while reading scripture.
I'm not answering this question because I posted my reply answering this twice: once without your passages and once with them. You can read my post for the answer to your question, Ahwatukee.
No, Paul isn't.
Paul is speaking against those people who don't understand (or don't care) that the Messiah is now doing those VALID works of the law in heaven and that the people were just supposed to do them until He arrived...so now have faith in Him for those things.
Paul did not preach against the law or fail to observe it as scripture shows.
Allow me to clarify. The Law is holy and righteous. The problem lies with us, mankind. Because of our sinful nature we are unable to meet the requirements of the law. And when we attempt to meet the requirements of the law, we fail which brings wrath and condemnation. This is why Paul states that he stopped trying to meet the righteous requirements of the Law.
"For through the law I died to the law so that I might live to God." - Berean Study Bible
"For through the Law I died to the Law and its demands on me [because salvation is provided through the death and resurrection of Christ], so that I might [from now on] live to God. - Amplified Bible
"For when I tried to keep the law, it condemned me. So I died to the law—I stopped trying to meet all its requirements—so that I might live for God." - NLT
Jesus also spoke about not mixing the two covenants with the parable of not pouring new wine into old wine skins. If you pour new wine into old wineskins, they will burst and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. This is also taught in the parable of sowing an unshrunk piece of cloth onto an old garment. The new piece will shrink and pull away from the old making the tear worse.
Ok, I'm done. I've already showed you were he did speak against those who are attempting to keep the law.
You guys can go on putting yourself under the law, if that is what you believe. As for me, I will not set aside salvation by grace through faith to embrace the works of the law.
Paul did not go on attempting to keep the law, but most definitely spoke against doing that in many places, many of which I have already provided. Regardless of what you claim, Paul was not having faith in Christ and also depending on the law for salvation.