A Closer Look at Ephesians 1:13

[Wansvic]

This couldn't be more wrong.

The Bible teaches that WHEN a person believes, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, marking them as God's own possession. At that moment. Eph 1:13,14

John 5:24 clearly teaches that WHEN a person believes, they possess eternal life. That is salvation. In fact, Jesus said He was the giver of eternal life in John 10:28 and recipients shall NEVER PERISH.

Put these 2 verses together and you will realize that salvation is IMMEDIATE the moment one believes in Christ.


See verses above. They refute this theory.

Since scriptures show that believing and receiving the Holy Ghost do not occur simultaneously I have to disagree.

Paul's question alone proves this point. Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed? (Acts 19:1) If receiving the Holy Ghost was automatic when would he make a distinction? Again, this occurred with the Samaritans as well. They believed Philip message and were water baptized in Jesus' name. It was days later that Peter and John came and prayed for them to receive the Holy Ghost. (Acts 8)

 

[SophieT]

Notice what is specifically stated in verse 22: "...his faith was made complete by what he did." Meaning his faith was incomplete without his action.

this is not something to go on about as James makes clear what is going on

TRUER faith produces action

it's that simple. what came first? the action or the faith (you might state faith is an action but one only visible to God until it is put into 'physical' action...like cause and effect)

faith is complete without action if it is genuine. if someone in a wheel chair or a quadriplegic accepts Christ and they are incapable of putting legs to their faith, they are still saved

 

[SophieT]

My point is that the NT spiritual rebirth does not happen instantaneously the moment a person believes in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. The rebirth experience requires obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus and receiving the Holy Ghost. Jesus makes reference to this in John 3:5.

nope. been over this many many times.

 

[SophieT]

My point is that the NT spiritual rebirth does not happen instantaneously the moment a person believes in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. The rebirth experience requires obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus and receiving the Holy Ghost. Jesus makes reference to this in John 3:5.

actually, according to what you wrote about yourself, you were NOT saved then until you were water baptized years after you were saved

seriously? smh

 

[Wansvic]

this is not something to go on about as James makes clear what is going on

TRUER faith produces action

What do you mean by "truer faith?"

 

[Wansvic]

actually, according to what you wrote about yourself, you were NOT saved then until you were water baptized years after you were saved

seriously? smh

Yes, that is what I see from scripture.

 

[SophieT]

What do you mean by "truer faith?"

whoops. I meant simply 'true' as in saving faith. the r was an accident

 

[Wansvic]

nope. been over this many many times.

I think we know what the other believes and are not in agreement.

 

[SophieT]

And that is ok that you don't agree. I am just sharing what I see as are you.

I do not claim to understand why God requires what He does at times. I think anyone who professes to understand everything is a liar. All I know is that the bible specifically commands everyone to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin. I believe the command must be obeyed for that reason. There is no gray area for me personally. I saw it and did it because I believed it was true. I had received the Holy Ghost years prior but after being water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus the change in me was profound. Praise God. We all have our personal testimonies and that's mine.

Please know I am not trying to force anyone to agree with me. As I told you before, our job is to plant and water seeds. It is God who opens the eyes of understanding.

so here is the post wherein you state the lapse between what I would state is saving faith and water baptism. so it seems you are clearly stating you were not saved for years.

I do not see that in scripture but it does seem to be your belief

I'm going to drop the conversation now because we are simply not going to agree

thanks

 

[FreeGrace2]

John's comment in no way suggests that one would replace the other. Neither ceased to be necessary as reflected in scripture.

Scripture does NOT teach water baptism as necessary for salvation. I've already given 24 verses that show that believing/faith alone is the requirement for salvtion/eternal life.

Acts 22:16 records Paul's water baptism as it references the use of Jesus' name. This is how every water baptism was done after Jesus' sacrifice. Acts 9:17-18 is the record of his receiving the Holy Ghost.

Yes, water baptism is the symbol of the believer's identification as God's own possession.

Mark 16:16 references belief, baptism, and the states after this occurs the born again person will speak in tongues; this refers to baptism by the Holy Ghost.

When linked with salvation, baptism means baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is His indwelling the believer.

Not for salvation, but because of salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Paul's exact words in the scripture you cited contradict your interpretation. Paul stated the people were baptized into Moses in the cloud and the sea. (1 Cor 10:2)

I guess you didn't understand anything I explained.

Did the Jews get immersed "in the sea"? No. Did the Egyptian army get immersed "in the sea"? Yes. They died. They weren't saved in the water at all.

The Jews were saved FROM the water. Just like Noah was saved FROM the water that killed the rest of mankind.

There were 3 things associated with the deliverance of the Israelites from Egypt. The blood of the Passover lamb, the water of the Red Sea and the cloud of God's presence leading His people. This typology parallels the believer's deliverance from the bondage of sin. (Egypt) The NT spiritual rebirth experience includes the blood of Jesus, the water of baptism, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in our natural body guiding us in our daily walk.

OK, you really don't understand 1 Cor 10, or "baptisms".

All water baptisms are symbolic of an identification.

1. Jesus' baptism by John was symbolic of being identified with the Father's plan of salvation for mankind.
2. Water baptism of the believer is symbolic of being identified as being Christ's.

 

[FreeGrace2]

John 3:5 is not a reference to Jesus' own baptism.

He was. You are free to have you own opinion. When Jesus was baptized by John, God the Father approved of His Son being identified with His Father's plan for mankind.

But why do you think Jesus was baptized?

After informing Nicodemus of the requirements to enter the kingdom of God, Jesus tells him not to be surprised at what he has been told. He states, YOU must be born again. (verse 7)

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

And being "born again" is associated with baptism with the Holy Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
People are baptized in the Holy Spirit WHEN they believe in Christ. Eph 1:13,14

Not according to Paul in Acts 19:1. Nor in Philip's exchange with the Samaritans in Acts 8.

Why would anyone think that Paul, who wrote Eph 1:13,14 disagree with his own statement?

Philip had no "exchange" with the Samaritans regarding baptism.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Since scriptures show that believing and receiving the Holy Ghost do not occur simultaneously I have to disagree.

During the transitional period of the church, that was true. But given all that Paul wrote later on, after the establishment of the church, that was no longer true. And I've shown you the verses that prove that.

Paul's question alone proves this point. Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed? (Acts 19:1) If receiving the Holy Ghost was automatic when would he make a distinction? Again, this occurred with the Samaritans as well. They believed Philip message and were water baptized in Jesus' name. It was days later that Peter and John came and prayed for them to receive the Holy Ghost. (Acts 8)

Again, this was during the transitional period of the establishment of the church.

What did Paul tell the Galatian believers in Gal 3:2,5?

And what occurred with Cornelius and his household when they believed Peter's message? Hint: 11-
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized withwater, but you will be baptized withthe Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”
18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

 

[SophieT]

Did the Jews get immersed "in the sea"?

that's a good thing! yeah?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Did the Jews get immersed "in the sea"?

that's a good thing! yeah?

I was thinking that it was a good thing that the Egyptian army got immersed in the sea.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Please take the time to read the account. (Acts 19:10-20)These are not the same people as in the beginning of Acts chapter 19.

What is clear from Acts 19:18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.

The words "that believed" are translated from the Greek word pisteuō. The Greek word is in the perfect tense:

The Perfect Tense​

​

Action that has been completed in the past ...​

​

https://www.blueletterbible.org/help/greekverbs.cfm#tense​

Those who confessed and shewed their deeds were already believers.

The fact that they confessed does not mean they were not born again. Each born again believer is instructed to confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive usour sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

Do you believe that we are saved by grace through faith?

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

How many times must the believer be baptized?

Ephesians 4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The significance of baptism is that once baptized, the born again one cannot go back to the previous lifestyle (bondage to sin). This is reflected in 1 Cor 10:2. The children of Israel could no more go back to the bondage of Egypt than the born again believer can go back to the bondage of sin. It's not like they could go back to Egypt and leave again, cross through the sea (re-baptized).

They were occult worshipping people who finally believed and accepted Paul's message after seeing the miracles God performed through him. They confessed and brought their occult books and burned them as proof of their genuine repentance.

They were already believers. They believed prior to the incident with the seven sons of Sceva. However, as with most new believers, they participated in stuff prior to coming to faith which they were still involved in ... just as we see happening in our day and time with new believers (and even some believers who've been around awhile).


Expositor's Greek New Testament:

Acts 19:18. πολλοί τε: the τε shows another immediate result in the fact that those who were already believers were now fully convinced of the pre-eminence of the name of Jesus, and were all the more filled with a reverential fear of His holy name: “many also of those who had believed,” ...


Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges:

18. And many that believed] i.e. who had made a profession of their faith ... The Rev. Ver. “had believed” is the more correct tense.


Pulpit Commentary:

Verse 18. - Many also of them that had believed for and many that believed, A.V.; confessing and declaring for and confessed and showed, A.V. Many also of them that had believed. This and the following verse speak of that class of converts who had previously been addicted to magic arts.


David Guzik Study Guide for Acts 19:

b. Many who had believed came confessing and telling their deeds: Apparently, before the sons of Sceva incident, many believers did not know they were involved in the demonic. They saw their actions in a far more innocent light, until they knew the reality of demonic activity.

...

iii. Christians must do this also today, removing books, images, computer files, statues, charms, games, or whatever else might have connection with demonic spirits. They should also destroy them so they are of no use to others.

 

[Wansvic]

so here is the post wherein you state the lapse between what I would state is saving faith and water baptism. so it seems you are clearly stating you were not saved for years.
I do not see that in scripture but it does seem to be your belief

I'm going to drop the conversation now because we are simply not going to agree

thanks

I hope you don't mind my making one additional comment in regards to the topic.

Consider that we are to be the bride of Christ. As in the natural one is a finance prior to becoming a bride. Engagements can go on for some time before one becomes an official bride. This requires entering into a covenant. Covenantal responsibilities include accepting the proposal of marriage extended by one's bridegroom, taking on the bridegrooms name, and consummating the marriage. Without obedience to the requirements one remains a finance or may at one point return to the status of being single wishing to no longer enter into the commitment.

These steps can be easily seen as relating to obedience to the gospel message. Accept the Lord's proposal in repentance, become his official bride upon taking on his name and having the union consummated through the infilling of the Holy Ghost into one's body.

I truly believe the scriptures speak to this truth. And, therefore, having been obedient to just a portion of the gospel message I was simply His finance. Did I know this before hand? No. I only understood this after seeing the truth in scripture of the need to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. I saw it said it, I believed it to be true, and obeyed the command. After obedience to God's command I was no longer blind to the truth. What occurred is a direct parallel to what Jesus stated in John 3:3-5.

Jesus states in John 3:3 that once a person is reborn they can SEE (understand) the kingdom of God. He goes on to say a person cannot ENTER the kingdom of heaven until after they are born of water and Spirit. (John 3:5)

Continue to be blessed.

 

[Wansvic]

I guess you didn't understand anything I explained.

Did the Jews get immersed "in the sea"? No. Did the Egyptian army get immersed "in the sea"? Yes. They died. They weren't saved in the water at all.

The Jews were saved FROM the water. Just like Noah was saved FROM the water that killed the rest of mankind.


OK, you really don't understand 1 Cor 10, or "baptisms".

All water baptisms are symbolic of an identification.

1. Jesus' baptism by John was symbolic of being identified with the Father's plan of salvation for mankind.
2.Water baptism of the believer is symbolic of being identified as being Christ's.

Jesus told John that water baptism was to be done to fulfill all righteousness. (Matt. 3:15)

Please don't take offense, I just don't see scripture aligning with your understanding.

 

[Wansvic]

He was. You are free to have you own opinion. When Jesus was baptized by John, God the Father approved of His Son being identified with His Father's plan for mankind.

But why do you think Jesus was baptized?


And being "born again" is associated with baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus tells Nicodemus not to be surprised that he must be born again. He makes this statement after saying everyone must be born of water and Spirit.

Again, Jesus said water baptism is to be done in order to fulfill all righteousness. (Matt 3:15)