Was Paul a Torah observant Jew?

[Blik]

Could you sum up your reply in a paragraph, or at least state your main objection to my stance succinctly? You don't initially have to use Scripture, we'll get into that as the exchange progresses.

if may please butt in, what we are arguing about is what we are to do after we are made perfect in Christ. Before that, what the law says only as it convicts us. After that, we are to listen to Christ and what Christ tells us about the law. Paul tells us about it by saying we are not under the law, for we are under faith not law for salvation.

The law as Christ gave it is explained in the sermon on the mount when Christ said "but I tell you". Christ explained law in our hearts. The law in stone tells us not to murder, the law in our hearts tells us to not even call others a fool. The law in stone tells us to cut skin to be circumcised, the law in our hearts tells us we belong to Christ in our hearts. The law in stone tells us to not eat any animal who eats garbage, the law in our hearts tells us food is only eliminated but what we put in our minds must be clean for it stays and it affects the soul.

Paul goes on and on to say we are freed from such things, but we are now the children of Christ and as such the law of Christ guides us.

 

[Yahshua]

Could you sum up your reply in a paragraph, or at least state your main objection to my stance succinctly? You don't initially have to use Scripture, we'll get into that as the exchange progresses.

Will do.

"True. Please read this again."

Romans 3:31 (KJV) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Paul is saying because only Jesus is righteous and kept the law, we establish the law when we place our faith in Him.

True. Please put this verse\|/ in your own words for me. I'd like to see if we're reading it the same.

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(Gal 3:2)

I believe it explains itself in the next two verse...

Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
(Gal 3:3)
Romans 1:17 (KJV) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

They had begun with faith (by which they received God's Spirit, but then resorted to relying on their own strength to live pleasing to God...which is a sure fail.

"Paul never preached against the law or failed to observe it. "

He taught we have been made dead to the law (Rom 7:4), and he taught how that attempted righteousness via the law was also a fail. Rom 7:7-25

No prob. My objection is with your interpretation of what Paul taught regarding the law. Let's take your last sentence. The concept of "We're dead to the law" doesn't also mean "the law is dead to us in Messiah". They're not equal, but that's what's being inferred (when paired with talk about how Paul preached against the law). Instead, the concept Paul is explaining can be understood if we consider the example between a parent and a child:

If a parent tells a child "do not touch the hot stove", that's now a rule the parent established...but the child will certainly be compelled to touch the hot stove simply because they were told not to, breaking that parent's rule. Why? Because the child's flesh is alive and in control of them. So should the rule be tossed out? No, there's nothing wrong with the rule. However, (and God forbid anyone reading this experience this in real life) if that child dies they can't break that rule anymore, or any rule. They can no longer be disobedient towards any rules once given to them because they're dead. The parent's rule is satisfied (i.e. fulfilled) in their death.

So likewise, Paul explains that he is crucified with Messiah by faith in Him. The law slays him. And if his flesh is dead the flesh can't compel Paul to sin anymore against the Almighty. Thus we're told to work on this by dying daily and crucifying the flesh so it no longer is alive to control us, because the end goal is to stop breaking the law, ultimately. Notice that the law goes nowhere in this scenario: it's always the scales weighing all persons' hearts: either condemning or being satisfied/fulfilled in Messiah. So Paul wasn't preaching against the law.

[Three paragraphs??]

 

[Blik]

Why do you write this sort of thing?
You've deviated from discussing Scripture into a form of accusatory rant.
No-one has ever obeyed the Law in its entirety; the Law was designed so that all would fall short, and thus
feel convicted , and thus feel the necessity for a 'better way', one that actually worked.
See Romans 7 - in fact I would counsel you to read Romans many times.

What post of mine do you think is not scripture based?

 

[crossnote]

No prob. My objection is with your interpretation of what Paul taught regarding the law. Let's take your last sentence. The concept of "We're dead to the law" doesn't also mean "the law is dead to us in Messiah". They're not equal, but that's what's being inferred (when paired with talk about how Paul preached against the law). Instead, the concept Paul is explaining can be understood if we consider the example between a parent and a child:

I'm using dead to the law in the sense that our obligation is now to Christ (we have a new marriage)

If a parent tells a child "do not touch the hot stove", that's now a rule the parent established...but the child will certainly be compelled to touch the hot stove simply because they were told not to, breaking that parent's rule. Why? Because the child's flesh is alive and in control of them. So should the rule be tossed out? No, there's nothing wrong with the rule. However, (and God forbid anyone reading this experience this in real life) if that child dies they can't break that rule anymore, or any rule. They can no longer be disobedient towards any rules once given to them because they're dead. The parent's rule is satisfied (i.e. fulfilled) in their death.

I fail to see any connection with our walk. With the new birth, when we sin, it is not because we wanted to sin.

So likewise, Paul explains that he is crucified with Messiah by faith in Him. The law slays him. And if his flesh is dead the flesh can't compel Paul to sin anymore against the Almighty. Thus we're told to work on this by dying daily and crucifying the flesh so it no longer is alive to control us, because the end goal is to stop breaking the law, ultimately. Notice that the law goes nowhere in this scenario: it's always the scales weighing all persons' hearts: either condemning or being satisfied/fulfilled in Messiah. So Paul wasn't preaching against the law.

That is a big 'IF the flesh is dead.' The 'flesh isn't fully dead until we put of this corruptible bodies, in the meantime , it is the Spirit that puts to death the deeds of the flesh.

Romans 8:13 (KJV) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

 

[OldSage]

What post of mine do you think is not scripture based?

Sins all come from the mind Blik.
Matthew 15: 19 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man"

Under the old covenant you might have wanted to do these things, but the Law (probably) stopped you.

Under the New Covenant we are indwelt by the Spirit of God, which transforms our heart and mind. By faith we know we have a future life in heaven in an incorruptible body through Christ, so we can rise to some extent above this world.

Romans 12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

I think you have to try and understand the person under the old covenant; they were not a spirit-filled Israelite, so they could not possibly have the mind of Christ.

 

[Blik]

Sins all come from the mind Blik.
Matthew 15: 19 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man"

Under the old covenant you might have wanted to do these things, but the Law (probably) stopped you.

Under the New Covenant we are indwelt by the Spirit of God, which transforms our heart and mind. By faith we know we have a future life in heaven in an incorruptible body through Christ, so we can rise to some extent above this world.

Romans 12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

I think you have to try and understand the person under the old covenant; they were not a spirit-filled Israelite, so they could not possibly have the mind of Christ.

The new covenant made the old one obsolete, now the law is not in stone but in our hearts.

I don't understand just what is find so objectionable about my posts, A quick summary of all of my posts is that we repent of sin when we are saved, and a saved person repents of sin. I don't see how you can repent of something that is not there. The law tells us what to repent of. That is what Jesus taught, and Paul simply explained Jesus to the gentiles. If Paul taught something different, then Paul was not of Jesus and I think Paul was of Jesus.

 

[Yahshua]

Sticking with the theme of the OP...

I'm using dead to the law in the sense that our obligation is now to Christ (we have a new marriage)

I'm going to assume this is your dichotomy:

obligation to the law (old marriage)

vs.

obligation to Christ (new marriage)

....If so, this is a false dichotomy as Paul isn't making this contrast in the portion of the letter you originally referenced (Rom 7:4). His contrast is as follows:

obligation to sin (old marriage)

vs.

obligation to Christ (new marriage)


The context begins in Rom 6:20-23. and continues through Rom 7:4. The ever-present law binds two people in marriage. Even if they divorce and then she goes off and marries another, she can't then return to her former husband as long as they live. That is the law. At the end of chapter 6 Paul explains that the servant of sin is bound to sin (as if sin is the husband). What binds them together? The law of marriage. So sin is the master/husband and by law God can't legally marry the believer else He'd be an adulterer. The only thing that frees both parties from this situation is death. In death, the believer is free from the obligation of the law that binds them to the husband of sin, able to marry Christ...and it frees the Almighty from the obligation of the law that restricts Him from marrying the believer. In death, the law is thus not broken but satisfied and the two parities can legally marry each other.

----
Note:
- Paul ISN'T saying the believer is free from the law.
- Paul IS saying the believer is free from the husband, sin.
----

When we only read Rom 7:4 we lose this context.

That is a big 'IF the flesh is dead.' The 'flesh isn't fully dead until we put of this corruptible bodies, in the meantime , it is the Spirit that puts to death the deeds of the flesh.

Romans 8:13 (KJV) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

It isn't a big if as long as one uses the faith and Grace and Spirit given as Rom 8:13 says. It's supposed to be getting easier little by little each day through sanctification. But if we're not even trying (because we were taught that Messiah does all the work and not to try lest we lose salvation) then we can't grow in Christ's offered strength, and merely stall for decades and decades with the same sins.

This is why understanding Paul's words is paramount.

 

[crossnote]

I think you have to try and understand the person under the old covenant; they were not a spirit-filled Israelite, so they could not possibly have the mind of Christ.

That would be a good discussion in and of itself...
"Were the OT saints born

I'm going to assume this is your dichotomy:

obligation to the law (old marriage)

vs.

obligation to Christ (new marriage)

....If so, this is a false dichotomy as Paul isn't making this contrast in the portion of the letter you originally referenced (Rom 7:4). His contrast is as follows:

obligation to sin (old marriage)

vs.

obligation to Christ (new marriage)

There never has been an obligation to sin, it is to the law and couldn't be clearer using God's Word rather than man's reasoning...

Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress. Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. (Rom 7:1-4)

For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
(Gal 2:19-20)

The reason death to the law was necessary...
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. (1Co 15:56)

The context begins in Rom 6:20-23.

Rom 6 is all about how we are dead to sin through our being in Christ, no argument there.

Paul ISN'T saying the believer is free from the law.

This gets into what one means by law. As believers with the new birth we have God's law written afresh on our hearts. Jer 31:31, that is we have received a new nature which is a reflection of His nature, which was codified in stone given to Moses. Our new nature desires to live in accordance with God's law (nature).

It isn't a big if as long as one uses the faith and Grace and Spirit given as Rom 8:13 says.

We don't 'use' God in any way. Remember, we are the clay, He is the Potter.

 

[Yahshua]

There never has been an obligation to sin, it is to the law and couldn't be clearer using God's Word rather than man's reasoning...

Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress. Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. (Rom 7:1-4)

For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
(Gal 2:19-20)

The reason death to the law was necessary...
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. (1Co 15:56)

I copied and pasted your quote...

Romans 7:1-4 [Brackets mine]
Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage [TO HER HUSBAND]. Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law [TO HER HUSBAND], and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress. Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law [TO WHICH FORMER HUSBAND? keep the context.] through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another [husband], to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

Wife]--Marriage law binds--[husband
Sinner]--Marriage law binds--[???
Believer (former sinner)]--Marriage law binds--[Christ​

If Christ is "another husband", who was the previous husband that Paul references? The law itself isn't the previous husband because as Paul explains it's the mechanism that binds a marriage between two parties. We must keep the context of the passage. There weren't chapter and verse markings in the original letter so we mustn't treat chapters 6 and 7 as separate. What does Paul mention the believer was previous bound to serve by the law?

The reason death to the law was necessary...
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. (1Co 15:56)

^^^^^What were we previously bound to? Paul is perfectly consistent. He's not preaching about removing the marriage mechanism (i.e. the law).

Gentiles weren't previously bound to the law itself because the law wasn't given to them. But every person the world over is (or was in the case of the believer) bound to sin. That is what each person must be freed from, as Paul explains in Rom 6. The only way to free a person from a law of marriage is through death. "till death do us part".

This gets into what one means by law. As believers with the new birth we have God's law written afresh on our hearts. Jer 31:31, that is we have received a new nature which is a reflection of His nature, which was codified in stone given to Moses. Our new nature desires to live in accordance with God's law (nature).

No this doesn't get into what one means by law. Notice even in your reply that the law remains, it simply transferred from stone to heart. So even your reply here supports that Paul isn't saying the believer is free from God's law in Romans 7.

We don't 'use' God in any way. Remember, we are the clay, He is the Potter.

Luckily no one said 'we use God'. I agree with you (shoo scarecrow!)

- The Spirit is a gift (Acts 2:38).
- Every man is given a measure of faith to grow (Romans 12:3).
- Grace is also a gift (Ephesians 2:8).

Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.


As long as one uses the faith and Grace and Spirit given to us by God, as Rom 8:13 says, sinning less is supposed to get easier little by little each day through the process of sanctification.

 

[Blik]

It is very strange there is so much posted that suggests Paul was against God's law as Paul wrote that he wasn't.

Romans 3:31- Do we then make void the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

I have read a book by a psychiatrist (M Scott Peck) who wrote of four people he had med in his years of practice who he felt were demon possessed. They were drawn to the church for it served as a cover up of their possession. Perhaps it is demons who are trying to undermine Christ's telling us to obey Him.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

The NLT makes more sense:

Romans 3:31 NLT - "Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law."