Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson

[FreeGrace2]

Those verses don't prove ability.

The very meaning of the words prove that they do. Sorry that you fail to understand that.

They only prove that you WANT them to.

Don't be silly.

If you announced to a crowd that you refuse to jump straight up 15 ft in the air without any assistance, how do you think the crowd would respond to that? They'd want to have you committed in a mental hospital.

It's impossible to refuse to do something that you don't have the ability to do.

Just because you are commanded to do something doesn't mean you have the ability to do it.

Well, what really stupid person would even think to give a command to someone who doesn't have the ability to do it??

I expect you'll want to bring up the 10 commandments and call me blasphemous for insinuating that God is a very stupid person.

Look, the purpose of the Law was to reveal man's sinfulness. So man would realize his need for salvation.

The biblical command to believe and repent do no such thing. They are commanded because man is able to do them.

But blinded Calvinists cannot understand this.

Although that is the general assumption from those who don't understand.

Calvinism is who don't understand.

Everyone resists the Holy Spirit until GOD circumcises their hearts and ears and gives them the Gift of Repentance.

So, we're just stacking up gifts. So, what verses teaches that everyone resists the Holy Spirit UNTIL they are circumcised of heart and the verses where repentance is called a gift?

I know the Bible well enought to know that you can't find any such verses.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

You don't have the ability to do that. You need help.

Apparently you haven't opened a Greek lexicon, ever.

teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Definition: having reached its end, complete, perfect
Usage: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.

It's sad that people seem to think Matt 5:48 is a command to be sinless.

 

[JerryInBoston]

No, I don't mean that at all. You just keep demonstrating how little of the Bible you grasp.

Mary believed in the Messiah. And when the angel announced the Messiah's conception and birth, Mary was all on board. Do you actually think there was force in all that?

I'm talking about the Calvinist notions that all of humanity is totally depraved (the T in tulip). So, in order to get some of these totally depraved people to believe, God FORCES regeneration on them. Do you actually think any of the totally depraved would want to be regenerated??? Calvinist doctrine says the totally depraved hate all things pertaining to God.

So, God has to FORCE regeneration on some of the totally depraved so they WILL believe.


Here's the zinger though. He had to FORCE His way with you (according to you, not the Bible), but those He chooses NOT to FORCE regeneration on, are condemned because He didn't allow them to believe.

Such a theology is bizarre. There is NO grace in it.


God knew that He would have to FORCE you to. Don't try to change the goalposts.


Oh, so now you're changing the goalposts again!!

You "got" the Lord?? Really? Aren't you aware of John 10:28,29?

Obviously not.

As you read this, remember thst you were the one that suggested God used "FORCE", not me. I was just taking a little liberty in a jocular sense with your terms. You don't grasp subtlety. If you did then you'd have clearly understood that when i used "force" in my message, I was speaking in jest. But its okay with me if you're inclined to take all things literally.

Regardless, God exercised HIS sovereign (hope you understand what that word entails) will as HIS means to provoke me, and change me heart from unbelief, during which HE regenerated me and gifted me with repentance, faith, and salvation. That it was all God and none of me, I know for certain. Nothing I did caused me to be born again, repent, and believe. All of that was by the power of God almighty, and it is the power of God almighty that continues to sanctify me.

You can go on believing you would never be saved unless you put your free will to believe above God's sovereign will to change your heart and gift you faith. You are free to believe it was your free will that you caused God to save you, no matter how wrong you are.

Yes, Mary believed, but it wasn't her will that caused her belief, it was God's will.

All humanity is totally depraved. They are radically corrupt, dead in trespasses and sins, wholly unable to come to faith on their own. We need God to gift us with a new heart, with a changed mind, with repentance and faith. Which is precisely what God does by HIS sovereign grace. Those who respond are the elect and they receive those gifts. Those that don't respond are the reprobates and they get what they deserve.

You keep invoking the word "FORCE", and I wonder if you ever stop to consider that the Bible speaks of the predestinated elect. If God knows who the predestinated elect are, all God needs to do is provoke them with the Word of God, because faith comes by hearing the Word of God. The word of God cuts through the hearts of the elect and regenerates them, gifting them salvation, repentance, and faith in the process.

 

[Grandpa]

The very meaning of the words prove that they do. Sorry that you fail to understand that.


Don't be silly.

If you announced to a crowd that you refuse to jump straight up 15 ft in the air without any assistance, how do you think the crowd would respond to that? They'd want to have you committed in a mental hospital.

It's impossible to refuse to do something that you don't have the ability to do.


Well, what really stupid person would even think to give a command to someone who doesn't have the ability to do it??

I expect you'll want to bring up the 10 commandments and call me blasphemous for insinuating that God is a very stupid person.

Look, the purpose of the Law was to reveal man's sinfulness. So man would realize his need for salvation.

The biblical command to believe and repent do no such thing. They are commanded because man is able to do them.

But blinded Calvinists cannot understand this.


Calvinism is who don't understand.


So, we're just stacking up gifts. So, what verses teaches that everyone resists the Holy Spirit UNTIL they are circumcised of heart and the verses where repentance is called a gift?

I know the Bible well enought to know that you can't find any such verses.


Apparently you haven't opened a Greek lexicon, ever.

teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Definition: having reached its end, complete, perfect
Usage: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.

It's sad that people seem to think Matt 5:48 is a command to be sinless.

Matthew 5:48 IS a command to be sinless. It is paraphrasing the 10 commandments which the Lord was explaining throughout Matthew 5.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Matthew 5 is a command to be sinless and then the Lord shows how to in John 15:5 and Matthew 11:28-30


Which is not by your will or your might or your knowledge. It is by the Will of God and His Might.

 

[JerryInBoston]

I don't care what James Brown sings. I was commenting on what YOU said. Let's leave Brown out of this.

Great soul music.

 

[JerryInBoston]

I don't care what James Brown sings. I was commenting on what YOU said. Let's leave Brown out of this.

 

[VARob]

Nothing I did caused me to be born again, repent, and believe.

The thing is that you weren’t born again until you believed the Gospel and repented. Eph 1:13

I’m bowing out. This argument between Calvinism and free will has gone on for centuries, and it won’t be settled here.

Personally, I believe Calvinism is an evil doctrine. It removes personal responsibility from people. It makes God unlovable, capricious, unreliable, untrustworthy, and ultimately, it makes Him responsible for evil.

Later.

 

[Icedaisey]

John 6:44 , Romans 8:33

Maybe the whole of the 2nd Peter verse 9 can be better understood in the context of the whole of chapter 3 language .

The term, Beloved. Peter isn't speaking to nor of the whole world there. He's speaking to the group, the elect.

We need remember the elect of God, in any usage, is referring to the eklektos. The chosen, or those selected, for God's divine purposes.

Jesus told his Disciples the reason he taught in Parables was so that not everyone would understand and come to repentance.

 

[Icedaisey]

Great soul music.

James Brown beat women.

 

[fredoheaven]

You have a very big problem.

The definition of "gift" proves you are wrong. Gifts are offered and received.

Gifts cannot be forced. Your theory theology forces God's gifts on the reprobate, who otherwise, according to Calvinism, would NEVER take such gifts.

So, if faith and salvation are gifts, they MUST BE received by the recipient. Not FORCED into the hand of the recipient.

If someone shoved food into your mouth, would you call that a gift?

As a Calvinist, you are going to have to call it a gift. Even if you choked on it and died.

So, by definition, even if faith is a gift, it must be received and not forced onto recipients.

You have done nothing to defend your theology.

But the biggest problem for Calvinists is the grotesque idea that God saves those that He FORCES to believe but condemns others because He PREVENTS them from believing.

Yep, gifts are either received or rejected.

 

[FreeGrace2]

As you read this, remember thst you were the one that suggested God used "FORCE", not me.

Excuse me, but I was showing how YOUR theology has God using FORCE. Since all of humanity is totally depraved, and Calvinists claim that NO totally depraved person would EVER choose to believe the gospel "on their own", they have invented the theory that God has to (forces) regenerate them (against their will, since they won't believe in His Son) so that they WILL believe.

If that isn't force, words don't mean anything. Yes, Calvinism has God FORCING His will on everyone.

For some, He FORCES them to believe, since totally depraved people wouldn't ever believe "on their own".
For others, He PREVENTS them (by force) from believing.

I was just taking a little liberty in a jocular sense with your terms. You don't grasp subtlety.

Well, I'm not with your terms and ideas. I am direct and to the point. And you can't defend your theology.

If you did then you'd have clearly understood that when i used "force" in my message, I was speaking in jest. But its okay with me if you're inclined to take all things literally.

I have explained several times now, HOW Calvinism includes FORCE in their theology. And you can't defend it.

Regardless, God exercised HIS sovereign (hope you understand what that word entails) will as HIS means to provoke me

I sure do. So let's just be honest here, ok? The words "God's sovereign will" and "provoke" both entail FORCE. Quit kidding yourself.

and change me heart from unbelief

iow, God FORCED your belief. Because Calvinism and you claim that no totally depraved person would ever believe "on their own".

So that means God FORCES belief in those He chooses by "twisting their arms".

during which HE regenerated me and gifted me with repentance, faith, and salvation.

No, God FORCED all of that on you because as a totally depraved human being, you'd never have repented or believed "on your own".

That it was all God and none of me, I know for certain.

Right. In your theology, God HAD TO FORCE you to believe because you wouldn't have done it "on your own".

Nothing I did caused me to be born again, repent, and believe.

In your imagination, God FORCED all that on you.

But you can't provide ANY Scripture that teaches any of this stuff.

All of that was by the power of God almighty, and it is the power of God almighty that continues to sanctify mey.

There you go again. FORCE. That's what the "power of God" means in your theology.

You can go on believing you would never be saved unless you put your free will to believe above God's sovereign will to change your heart and gift you faith.

Unless a person believes God's promise of salvation, they won't be saved. Acts 16:31 Man believes from his heart. Rom 10:9

Man is without excuse. Rom 1:21

All these verses REFUTE your theological ideas.

You are free to believe it was your free will that you caused God to save you, no matter how wrong you are.

I am amazed at the Calvinistic notion that free will is some kind of power that does things. It is you who are wrong.

Free will is only opportunity. Nothing more or less. While Calvinists seem threatened by it, as well they should be, because it refutes their notions, free will doesn't cause anything. That is quite the myth.

Free will is the opportunity to choose from among options. That's the very reason you are able to decide many things for yourself.

Yes, Mary believed, but it wasn't her will that caused her belief, it was God's will.

Go ahead and show me from the Bible. All you give me is your opinions.

All humanity is totally depraved. They are radically corrupt, dead in trespasses and sins, wholly unable to come to faith on their own.

Again, show me from the Bible. But, you can't because the Bible doesn't teach that human beings can't believe "on their own".

If that were true, then Paul's answer to the jailer was totally false. But Paul wasn't a Calvinist and he knew that the jailer could certainly believe the gospel and be saved.

We need God to gift us with a new heart, with a changed mind, with repentance and faith. Which is precisely what God does by HIS sovereign grace.

"sovereign" is FORCE in Calvinism. Even though not too many will admit it. But causing these totally depraved people to repent and believe REQUIRES FORCE. Don't kid yourself.

Those who respond are the elect and they receive those gifts.

Rather, in your system, those who respond were FORCED to, since they wouldn't "on their own".

Those that don't respond are the reprobates and they get what they deserve.

Excuse me, but every human being, being totally depraved, asre reprobates. So you don't have a point here

All you have in your theology is God PREVENTING some reprobates from believing but FORCING other reprobates to believe.

That's Calvinism in a nutshell. And it's nutty.

You keep invoking the word "FORCE"

Well, you keep invoking God's SOVEREIGN WILL, God's POWER, and provoke. If those don't include FORCE, words just don't mean anything.

and I wonder if you ever stop to consider that the Bible speaks of the predestinated elect.

I know it doesn't. So why do you think it does? These words are never found together.

In Rom 8, believers are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, not predestinated to be saved.
The elect are those God has chosen for a specific service to Him, which inlcuded Judas, who was the betrayer. John 6:70.

If God knows who the predestinated elect are, all God needs to do is provoke them with the Word of God

Yes, there's another word for FORCE. Provoke.

If you want to get bitten by a wild animal, go ahead and provoke it. You will have CAUSED that animal to bite you.

because faith comes by hearing the Word of God. The word of God cuts through the hearts of the elect and regenerates them, gifting them salvation, repentance, and faith in the process.

You missed one thing here. One not only needs to hear the word, they need to believe it.

And you STILL can't find any verse that tells us that God causes people to believe. You've been deceived by the teachings of Calvinism.

 

[fredoheaven]

No, you're reading v.8 wrong. Salvation and faith are gifts. That's exactly what the text says.

Why not Romans 6:23 Paul says about the gift of eternal life, not faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Matthew 5:48 IS a command to be sinless. It is paraphrasing the 10 commandments which the Lord was explaining throughout Matthew 5.

No it's not. As I already explained, the Law was given to "lead us to Christ". How? By proving that man is sinful and CANNOT be sinless. God wasn't commanding in the sense of obeying the command, but as a teaching lesson to sinners.

So sinners will realize that they ARE sinful and in need of the Savior.

Gal 3-
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”
11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”
19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.

22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.

These verses in Gal 3 prove that the command to be perfect" has nothing to do with being sinless.

Commanding someone to do something for the sole purpose of doing something KNOWING that the person CAN'T obey the command, is stupid. Period.

God is not stupid. He wouldn't command sinful man to be sinless unless they could be.

Even believers indwelt by the Spirit aren't sinless. The Bible doesn't teach sinless perfection.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

The word "abides" refers to fellowship. iow, unless the believer is in fellowship with the Lord, he is unable to bear fruit.

Matthew 5 is a command to be sinless and then the Lord shows how to in John 15:5 and Matthew 11:28-30

Please quote the verses so I can see what translation you are using. God is not stupid, and He doesn't command what people can't do. The Law was used to prove that man is sinful and in need of the Savior.

Which is not by your will or your might or your knowledge. It is by the Will of God and His Might.

Believers are indwelt by the Spirit, but NOT always filled with the Spirit.

Paul made this clear by his commands to STOP grieving the Spirit (Eph 4:30) and STOP quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19), and he commands believers to be filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18).

So, it should be obvious to you that believers are in fellowship ONLY WHEN they have confessed their sins and have been cleansed per 1 John 1:9 (count how many times the word "fellowship" is found in ch 1).

The filling of the Spirit is being empowered for service.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well, obviously you don't have anything to contribute to the discussion except Utube stuff.

 

[posthuman]

I like to ask the question, why do we pray to God for the salvation of others, if we are not hoping that He will intervene in that person, changing their will and the heart, compelling them to believe?

If we really believe God is 'too gentlemanly' to step in and 'cause' faith, we have no business praying for the lost. We should instead be either concentrating on trying to manipulate people's thoughts ourselves, or perhaps more consistently, doing nothing for the lost at all - lest we be 'guilty' of coercion ourselves.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Excuse me, but I was showing how YOUR theology has God using FORCE. Since all of humanity is totally depraved, and Calvinists claim that NO totally depraved person would EVER choose to believe the gospel "on their own", they have invented the theory that God has to (forces) regenerate them (against their will, since they won't believe in His Son) so that they WILL believe.

If that isn't force, words don't mean anything. Yes, Calvinism has God FORCING His will on everyone.

For some, He FORCES them to believe, since totally depraved people wouldn't ever believe "on their own".
For others, He PREVENTS them (by force) from believing.


Well, I'm not with your terms and ideas. I am direct and to the point. And you can't defend your theology.


I have explained several times now, HOW Calvinism includes FORCE in their theology. And you can't defend it.


I sure do. So let's just be honest here, ok? The words "God's sovereign will" and "provoke" both entail FORCE. Quit kidding yourself.


iow, God FORCED your belief. Because Calvinism and you claim that no totally depraved person would ever believe "on their own".

So that means God FORCES belief in those He chooses by "twisting their arms".


No, God FORCED all of that on you because as a totally depraved human being, you'd never have repented or believed "on your own".


Right. In your theology, God HAD TO FORCE you to believe because you wouldn't have done it "on your own".


In your imagination, God FORCED all that on you.

But you can't provide ANY Scripture that teaches any of this stuff.


There you go again. FORCE. That's what the "power of God" means in your theology.


Unless a person believes God's promise of salvation, they won't be saved. Acts 16:31 Man believes from his heart. Rom 10:9

Man is without excuse. Rom 1:21

All these verses REFUTE your theological ideas.


I am amazed at the Calvinistic notion that free will is some kind of power that does things. It is you who are wrong.

Free will is only opportunity. Nothing more or less. While Calvinists seem threatened by it, as well they should be, because it refutes their notions, free will doesn't cause anything. That is quite the myth.

Free will is the opportunity to choose from among options. That's the very reason you are able to decide many things for yourself.


Go ahead and show me from the Bible. All you give me is your opinions.


Again, show me from the Bible. But, you can't because the Bible doesn't teach that human beings can't believe "on their own".

If that were true, then Paul's answer to the jailer was totally false. But Paul wasn't a Calvinist and he knew that the jailer could certainly believe the gospel and be saved.


"sovereign" is FORCE in Calvinism. Even though not too many will admit it. But causing these totally depraved people to repent and believe REQUIRES FORCE. Don't kid yourself.


Rather, in your system, those who respond were FORCED to, since they wouldn't "on their own".


Excuse me, but every human being, being totally depraved, asre reprobates. So you don't have a point here

All you have in your theology is God PREVENTING some reprobates from believing but FORCING other reprobates to believe.

That's Calvinism in a nutshell. And it's nutty.


Well, you keep invoking God's SOVEREIGN WILL, God's POWER, and provoke. If those don't include FORCE, words just don't mean anything.


I know it doesn't. So why do you think it does? These words are never found together.

In Rom 8, believers are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, not predestinated to be saved.
The elect are those God has chosen for a specific service to Him, which inlcuded Judas, who was the betrayer. John 6:70.


Yes, there's another word for FORCE. Provoke.

If you want to get bitten by a wild animal, go ahead and provoke it. You will have CAUSED that animal to bite you.


You missed one thing here. One not only needs to hear the word, they need to believe it.

And you STILL can't find any verse that tells us that God causes people to believe. You've been deceived by the teachings of Calvinism.

No physical arm twisting, but a whole lot of spiritual heart changing. Your mind is stuck on physical force, while I'm talking about spiritual force that God can and does employ at HIS sovereign will, that changes how we think, how we behave, and how we live our lives.

God uses HIS force and causes all sort of things to occur that are independent of man's will, some things are physical in nature, and somethings are spiritual, but all things that God forces or causes are of HIS sovereign will.

God caused the creation of the heaven and the earth. Can you imagine the FORCE involved to accomplish such a feat? I can't, so I take it on faith that it was a FORCE heretofore unseen by humans.

God forced things into existence simply by HIS Word. God said "let there be light." and there was light. What kind of FORCE do you think could cause such a thing? Only God's force.

God caused the creation of every living animal from the earth. What kind of force/power do you think could do sich a thing: create living beings from dirt? Only God's power.

God caused/forced a deep sleep on Adam.

God slew/forced animals to clothe Adam and Eve. You must think God a real brute for having done such a thing, since the animals didn't sin.

God drove/forced Adam from the garden.

God forced Cain to bear a mark.

God destroyed the entire population of earth save eight. You're thinking God is a brute again, aren't you?

God snatched/forced Enoch from earth to heaven. Enoch had a family. You probably think God a brute for snatching Enoch away without even giving him the chance to say goodbye to his wife and kids.

God forced the parting of the sea.

God forced the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

God caused/forced Lots wife to become a pillar of salt. I know, you're thinking brute again, just for looking back.

God caused/forced Moses to see the promised land and prevented Moses from entering.

God forced Job to listen to HIM and to answer HIM.

God struck Uzzah dead in his tracks, just for touching the Ark. You're thinking: "How dare you God. Uzzah was just being thoughtful."

God forced a reluctant Joseph to take the pregnant Mary as his wife. I guess you're truly disgusted by God at this point.

God forced Joseph to flee Bethlehem and go to Egypt.

God forced Joseph to return to Judea.

God forced the storm on the sea to cease by the power of HIS voice.

There's so many more examples of God causing/forcing things to occur by the powerof HIS will. I'm sure you'll respond in your typical denial mode and come up some lame denial.

But yeah, I am forever grateful that my God FORCED HIMSELF on me and regenerated me and simultaneously gifted me with salvation repentance and persevering faith. Thank you Lord. ❤

 

[FreeGrace2]

No physical arm twisting, but a whole lot of spiritual heart changing.

You can call it whatever you want. It's still FORCING totally depraved people to do what they are not able to do, according to Calvinism. Play word games all you want. Doesn't change the truth.

Your mind is stuck on physical force, while I'm talking about spiritual force that God can and does employ at HIS sovereign will, that changes how we think, how we behave, and how we live our lives.

The point continues to be that God FORCES people to do what they wouldn't do otherwise.

God uses HIS force and causes all sort of things to occur that are independent of man's will

This is actually laughable, since you can't find ANY verses that teach such a thing.

some things are physical in nature, and somethings are spiritual, but all things that God forces or causes are of HIS sovereign will.

Yep, there you go again. Admitting that God does FORCE people to do what they DON'T WANT.

God caused the creation of the heaven and the earth.

This has nothing to do with man's free will.

Can you imagine the FORCE involved to accomplish such a feat? I can't, so I take it on faith that it was a FORCE heretofore unseen by humans.

Irrelevant to our discussion.

God forced things into existence simply by HIS Word.

You really don't understand the meaning of words. FORCE isn't the same as creation. When God created the universe, He SPOKE it into existence from nothing. So nothing was forced. This demonstrates a woeful lack of understanding Scripture.

God said "let there be light." and there was light. What kind of FORCE do you think could cause such a thing? Only God's force.

Can you explain WHAT was "forced" when God said that? I'm curious how your mind works.

God caused the creation of every living animal from the earth. What kind of force/power do you think could do sich a thing: create living beings from dirt? Only God's power.
God caused/forced a deep sleep on Adam.
God slew/forced animals to clothe Adam and Eve. You must think God a real brute for having done such a thing, since the animals didn't sin.
God drove/forced Adam from the garden.
God forced Cain to bear a mark.
God destroyed the entire population of earth save eight. You're thinking God is a brute again, aren't you?
God snatched/forced Enoch from earth to heaven. Enoch had a family. You probably think God a brute for snatching Enoch away without even giving him the chance to say goodbye to his wife and kids.
God forced the parting of the sea.
God forced the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
God caused/forced Lots wife to become a pillar of salt. I know, you're thinking brute again, just for looking back.
God caused/forced Moses to see the promised land and prevented Moses from entering.
God forced Job to listen to HIM and to answer HIM.
God struck Uzzah dead in his tracks, just for touching the Ark. You're thinking: "How dare you God. Uzzah was just being thoughtful."
God forced a reluctant Joseph to take the pregnant Mary as his wife. I guess you're truly disgusted by God at this point.
God forced Joseph to flee Bethlehem and go to Egypt.
God forced Joseph to return to Judea.
God forced the storm on the sea to cease by the power of HIS voice.[/QUOTE]
You really assume that all this defends the horrible doctrine that God FORCES people to believe when they wouldn't on their own.

And most of these pitiful "examples" aren't even about "force" at all. But what's the importance of meaning anyway, huh.

There's so many more examples of God causing/forcing things to occur by the powerof HIS will.

Well, you can just save your breath, or typing. Nothing you've posted here defends or is even relevant to God FORCING people to do what they wouldn't do.

I'm sure you'll respond in your typical denial mode and come up some lame denial.

I haven't denied anything, except your quite erroneous theology.

What you describe amounts to nothing more than God creating puppets/robots and then just playing with them. Causing all of them to do what He wants them to do.

 

[JerryInBoston]

I haven't denied anything, except your quite erroneous theology.

What you describe amounts to nothing more than God creating puppets/robots and then just playing with them. Causing all of them to do what He wants them to do.

You have denied God's sovereign will and authority to have mercy on whomever HE chooses to have mercy, and harden whomever HE wants to harden.

God is not a puppet master but a chain breaker and a way maker by gifting us (thank you Lord) with a changed heart, with salvation repentance and faith.

 

[JerryInBoston]

I haven't denied anything, except your quite erroneous theology.

What you describe amounts to nothing more than God creating puppets/robots and then just playing with them. Causing all of them to do what He wants them to do.

You have denied God's sovereign will, God's omnipotence, and God's authority to have mercy on whomever HE chooses to have mercy, and to harden whomever HE wants to harden.

God is not a puppet master but a chain breaker and a way maker by gifting us (thank you Lord) with a changed heart, with salvation repentance and faith, all by the powerful force of HIS Holy Spirit.

It doesn't matter to me how it was that God forced me out of my pleasure-filled hedonistic living, and I don't care that you say God is a brute because HE "forced" HIS gifts on me. That name-calling of God is on you.

I am eternally grateful that HE ripped me from the depths of depravity and by the power and force of HIS Holy Spirit filled me with HIS gifts of salvation repentance and faith. Thank you Lord ❤

 

[FreeGrace2]

You have denied God's sovereign will and authority to have mercy on whomever HE chooses to have mercy, and harden whomever HE wants to harden.

No, I have totally denied the Calvinistic claim that humanity is only God's playthings. Rubbish.

Sovereign God created mankind with the freedom of choice. Otherwise, man is nothing more than a puppet or robot.

But that's the way you view God, that's on you.

God is not a puppet master but a chain breaker and a way maker by gifting us (thank you Lord) with a changed heart, with salvation repentance and faith.

Hardly. Everything you've claimed about God paints Him as a puppet master, who pulls everyone's strings.

But deception runs very deep and your eyes are closed to biblical truth.

The ONLY REASON man is accountable and has NO EXCUSE is because God created man with the freedom to choose.

If God CAUSES all things, then man CANNOT be responsible for God's choices. That would be literally insane.

That you can't see this is quite sad.

 

[posthuman]

Please quote the verses so I can see what translation you are using. God is not stupid, and He doesn't command what people can't do. The Law was used to prove that man is sinful and in need of the Savior.

The law commands I be sinless in order to be counted righteous and be justified before God by the law.
If the point of the law is to show me I am not sinless, then isn't the law requiring things of me that I can't provide?
Why is the law full of atoning sacrifices? Isn't it because they are clearly necessary owing to my inability to be sinless?