A Closer Look at Ephesians 1:13

[Wansvic]

You still don't understand 1 Peter 3:21.

and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The red words refers to literal water, from v.20 and mention of the flood, which was literal water.

The blue words refer to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is what saves you.

The green words prove that it's NOT literal water that saves you. The green words refer to literal water, which IS used for the removal of dirt from the body.

Since you disagree, can you take each of these points and prove how and why I'm wrong?

The scripture does not state that the flood water symbolizes the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Consider OT foreshadows that later became reality:

The type in OT - Blood from sacrificial lambs
The antitype in the NT - The blood of the Lord Jesus

The type in OT - Water of the flood
The antitype in the NT - water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus

 

[Wansvic]

Peter is saying that literal water symbolizes the baptism (identification) that saves you. Literal water does NOT save you.

You are correct, natural water in and of itself does not save anyone. It is through faith in God and obedience to His message that a spiritual reality occurs in the waters of baptism. Do I profess to know exactly how it works? No. Only God knows that. What I do know is that God changes not. He said those who believe the message and obey it shall be saved. That is all I need to know. Frankly, I don't need to figure it all out.

A person who does not believe the entire gospel message and gets baptized is damned. (Mark 16:16) They accomplish nothing but getting wet.

 

[Kidron]

Ephesus (located in Asia)

It is also noteworthy that during Paul’s stay the record shows others believing his message, confessed, (sins) and showed their deeds. (Acts 19:17-18) This is an implication of repentance and the requirements

You stated that they "confessed" sins.
Yet, the verse does not say they confessed sins, so you added your opinion to the verse, as your theology.

So, let me show you what they actually CONFESSED......>"after they BELIEVED">

Its this.....Romans 10:10...... ""For with the heart man 1.) believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth 2.) CONFESSION is made unto salvation.""""

Notice this is Paul once again? This is the Apostle who wrote....>"Christ sent me not to water baptize"...

And this time he's explaining the reason for the "confession".........as first you BELIEVE, and then you CONFESS.... that you believed.

Now, this Confession, is to be PUBLIC.........and the way it's done in the Church, normally, is you are water baptized which is a public confession of your faith in Christ.

Now, where this fails, is regarding these 2 water cults......the Catholic Church and the Jehovah's Witness denomination.
As both of these teach that the WATER is causing your spirit to be born again. And this is the heretical doctrine of "baptismal regeneration" that was created by the Catholic heretic JEROME, when he mistranslated a great deal of a greek text into the Catholic Latin Vulgate text, that then was later used to create one of Satan's masterpieces, which is the Douay Rheims Catholic english version of the bible that teaches this LIE. = "baptismal regeneration".


Martin Luther who broke away from the CC was first inspired to do it, based on him realizing that Jerome had basically made up a bible.


Look at :
John 3.

Notice first what Jesus said........"you must be born of water and of the Spirit".

And Jerome changed this into the (water cult) theology that you find as both the JW and the Catholic doctrine that teaches you this:

""BORN AGAIN OF Water". or "born again BY water".

See that?
That is teaching that the water causes the New Birth, which is denying that the Holy Spirit causes the New Birth.

If you talk to a Catholic, for example, they will tell you that the water baptism is when God saves you...."by water"........born again of water.

 

[Wansvic]

You stated that they "confessed" sins.
Yet, the verse does not say they confessed sins, so you added your opinion to the verse, as your theology.

So, let me show you what they actually CONFESSED......>"after they BELIEVED">

Its this.....Romans 10:10...... ""For with the heart man 1.) believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth 2.) CONFESSION is made unto salvation.""""

Notice this is Paul once again? This is the Apostle who wrote....>"Christ sent me not to water baptize"...

And this time he's explaining the reason for the "confession".........as first you BELIEVE, and then you CONFESS.... that you believed.

Now, this Confession, is to be PUBLIC.........and the way it's done in the Church, normally, is you are water baptized which is a public confession of your faith in Christ.

I have to say it is very irritating when a person includes only a portion of my statement in an effort to support a negative assertion of deception. My actual comment that you edited was as follows. Clearly I made the point that the scripture implied something.

It is also noteworthy that during Paul’s stay the record shows others believing his message, confessed, (sins) and showed their deeds. (Acts 19:17-18) This is an implication of repentance and the requirement of those seeking water baptism as noted in Luke 3:8, Matt 3:8, and Acts 26:20.

Interesting that you do what you accuse me of doing. However, Romans 10:10 is void of confession along with showing deeds.

 

[Kidron]

It is also noteworthy that during Paul’s stay the record shows others believing his message, confessed, (sins)

You wrote the same thing again, having never actually comprehended what i wrote to you, yet.
So, let me just keep this short.

You are teaching something that isn't true.
You STATE that these new converts are "confessing SIN", as a part of their redemption, and they DO NOT.
They are "confessing CHRIST" as their Savior, as i showed you, in Romans 10:10

If you want me to show it to you again, then just ignore this post , and write your error again, and i'll show you Romans 10:10, as many times as you need, so that you'll eventually actually read the verse = that explains the "confession", that follows BELIEVING.

 

[FreeGrace2]

@FreeGrace2 uses the Weymouth paraphrase as his Bible, in which Weymouth takes great liberty with adding his own text that is not found in the Greek. Too much liberty, to be sure.

You are quite wrong, Jerry. I quoted 4 or 5 translations of 1 verse, one of which was Weymouth. Otherwise, I use the NIV. Shows that you don't pay attention.

Which is why you make so many mistakes.

 

[Wansvic]

Now, where this fails, is regarding these 2 water cults......the Catholic Church and the Jehovah's Witness denomination.
As both of these teach that the WATER is causing your spirit to be born again. And this is the heretical doctrine of "baptismal regeneration" that was created by the Catholic heretic JEROME, when he mistranslated a great deal of a greek text into the Catholic Latin Vulgate text, that then was later used to create one of Satan's masterpieces, which is the Douay Rheims Catholic english version of the bible that teaches this LIE. = "baptismal regeneration".


Martin Luther who broke away from the CC was first inspired to do it, based on him realizing that Jerome had basically made up a bible.


Look at :
John 3.

Notice first what Jesus said........"you must be born of water and of the Spirit".

And Jerome changed this into the (water cult) theology that you find as both the JW and the Catholic doctrine that teaches you this:

""BORN AGAIN OF Water". or "born again BY water".

See that?
That is teaching that the water causes the New Birth, which is denying that the Holy Spirit causes the New Birth.

If you talk to a Catholic, for example, they will tell you that the water baptism is when God saves you...."by water"........born again of water.

I have never stated nor do I believe that getting water baptized automatically prompts the spiritual rebirth. According to the word one must be born of water and of Spirit. (John 3:5) After believing in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, both are necessary to partake of the NT spiritual rebirth. If this were not so Jesus, Peter, Paul, Ananias, Philip, etc., etc. would not have commanded it.

Paul's comment about being sent to preach not to baptize in no way implies baptism was not part of what he preached. It only speaks to his having someone else baptize people. All have specific ministries not all do everything associated with the gospel message.
Also, consider that approximately 20 years after the water baptism message was given at Pentecost Paul was still explaining the need for people to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 19:1-6)

We are told there is a common salvation and all are to earnestly contend for the faith that was first delivered to the saints. I for one intend to do that. Remember the religious leaders of Jesus' day refused to accept Jesus, or the command to be water baptized for remission of sin.

Jude 3
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

 

[Kidron]

I have never stated nor do I believe that getting water baptized automatically prompts the spiritual rebirth. According to the word one must be born of water

That is water cult theology you are teaching.

Notice, you just taught that "one must be BORN OF WATER", and you defined a part of being born again, as """"BOTH are necessary" for Spiritual REBIRTH".

So, you just taught that Water is a part of SPIRITUAL REBIRTH, and that is THE = water cult concept, that is "baptismal regeneration", that i was just explaining that the Catholic Church teaches and the Jehovah's Witness TEACH.
And here you are teaching it, as i predicted.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The scripture does not state that the flood water symbolizes the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

It does. Clearly. The words "that water" in v.21 refers back to the flood water in v.20. iow, literal water, which does NOT save.

Consider OT foreshadows that later became reality:

Regarding the baptism that saves, it is the Holy Spirit.

The type in OT - Water of the flood
The antitype in the NT - water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus

This is just all wet.

No one in the Ark was saved by the literal water. Just ask the rest of the human race at that time. They ALL got dunked, immersed, and they were KILLED by the literal water. Wake up, man.

Noah plus 7 were saved THROUGH the literal water. iow, they were kept safe FROM the literal water, which killed everything else.

Another example:

1 Cor 10:1-2. The Jews were "baptized into Moses and into the sea". Hm. How many Jews got wet when going through the Red Sea?

None. How many in the army of Egypt got dunked, immersed in the Red Sea? All of them. And ALL of them were killed by the literal water of the Red Sea.

So Paul wasn't even thinking about what we call "Christian baptism" when he wrote 1 Cor 10:2.

The Greek word meant to "dip". It was initially used for dipping a cloth into a vat of dye. The cloth became identified with the color of the dye, and the wor eventually came to be used for IDENTIFICATION.

So, 1 Cor 10:1-2 teaches that the Jews were IDENTIFIED with Moses, their leader, and were IDENTIFIED with the sea and God's power to SAVE them from drowning.

How many different baptisms are in the Bible? And how many are wet and how many are dry? Do you know?

Or do you think EVERY mention of "baptism" means being immersed in water?

 

[Wansvic]

You wrote the same thing again, having never actually comprehended what i wrote to you, yet.
So, let me just keep this short.

You are teaching something that isn't true.
You STATE that these new converts are "confessing SIN", as a part of their redemption, and they DO NOT.
They are "confessing CHRIST" as their Savior, as i showed you, in Romans 10:10

If you want me to show it to you again, then just ignore this post , and write your error again, and i'll show you Romans 10:10, as many times as you need, so that you'll eventually actually read the verse = that explains the "confession", that follows BELIEVING.

What you seem to unknowingly, or knowingly overlook is my statement about the scripture's implication considering confession of sins and presenting deeds are typically associated with water baptism.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are correct, natural water in and of itself does not save anyone. It is through faith in God and obedience to His message that a spiritual reality occurs in the waters of baptism.

No, nothing happens in the "waters of baptism". That's a myth. It all happens the MOMENT a person believes in Christ.

Water baptism is a symbol for being identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection.

Do I profess to know exactly how it works? No. Only God knows that. What I do know is that God changes not. He said those who believe the message and obey it shall be saved. That is all I need to know. Frankly, I don't need to figure it all out.

A person who does not believe the entire gospel message and gets baptized is damned. (Mark 16:16) They accomplish nothing but getting wet.

First, Mark 16:16 wasn't found in any of the earliest manuscripts, and showed up in later ones. Proving that v.9-20 are NOT part of the inspired message from Mark.

Second, v.16 isn't about water baptism. It's about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Again, consider Acts 11-
13 He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter.
14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”
18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

All this was BEFORE they were water baptized.

The red words all refer to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Case closed.

 

[Kidron]

confession of sins and presenting deeds are typically associated with water baptism.

Actually, water baptism is not where you confess your sins just before they hold your head under the water.
So, where you got that idea, isn't found in a New Testament.
It came from :

1. Your denomination

2. Your commentaries

3. Your wrongly dividing some verses.

4. OR..... All of the above.

 

[JerryInBoston]

You are quite wrong, Jerry. I quoted 4 or 5 translations of 1 verse, one of which was Weymouth. Otherwise, I use the NIV. Shows that you don't pay attention.

Which is why you make so many mistakes.

NIV is another paraphrase that is flawed textually. But when you used the word "abundant", that is not found in the NIV, only found in the Weymouth, your choice study Bible obviously.

 

[Wansvic]

That is water cult theology you are teaching.

Notice, you just taught that "one must be BORN OF WATER", and you defined a part of being born again, as """"BOTH are necessary" for Spiritual REBIRTH".

So, you just taught that Water is a part of SPIRITUAL REBIRTH, and that is THE = water cult concept, that is "baptismal regeneration", that i was just explaining that the Catholic Church teaches and the Jehovah's Witness TEACH.
And here you are teaching it, as i predicted.

Your argument is with the word of God not me.
I am sharing what is clearly in the biblical record. Both water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost are necessary for the NT church. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 8:35-40, 10:44-48, 16:14-15, 16:28-33, 18:6-10, 19:1-6, 9:17-18, 22:16) Everyone of these scriptures point out all of the requirements of the rebirth experience.

Other scriptures reference just water baptism. Acts 8:35-40 Eunuch, 16:28-33 Jailer/family, 16:14-15 Lydia/family, 18:8 Crispus, (Paul baptized this leader of the synagogue/Someone else baptized members of Crispus’ household and other Corinthian believers) Gaius (Paul baptized) Gaius referenced in Acts 19:29.

Romans 10 was written to individuals who were already born again believers.

 

[FreeGrace2]

NIV is another paraphrase that is flawed textually.

Pitiful. First, it isn't a paraphrase. But I'm not surprised at another error of yours. It is nearly identical to the ESV. The main difference is order of words and sometimes using synonymous words.

I know because when my pastor preaches from the ESV, I follow along with my NIV and lo and behold; no material difference.

But when you used the word "abundant", that is not found in the NIV, only found in the Weymouth, your choice study Bible obviously.

I really can't figure why you are so eager to spread such lies. I wasn't even paying attention to which translation I was using. I was showing how different ones treated the verse.

In fact, I've NEVER consciously used the Weymouth before. I use biblehub.com, which gives 27 or 28 English translations all on one page. But since you were so unaware of the fact that "abundant" and "more" can be used to mean the same thing, why am I even bothering with trying to have a discussion with you?

I expect those who post on these forums have a basic knowledge base that's wide enough to follow along and understand.

Obviously, I over-estimate some who post here.

 

[Kidron]

No, nothing happens in the "waters of baptism". That's a myth. It all happens the MOMENT a person believes in Christ.
Water baptism is a symbol for being identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection.
First, Mark 16:16 wasn't found in any of the earliest manuscripts, and showed up in later ones. Proving that v.9-20 are NOT part of the inspired message from Mark.
Second, v.16 isn't about water baptism. It's about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Again, consider Acts 11-
13 He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter.
14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”
18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
All this was BEFORE they were water baptized.
The red words all refer to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Case closed.

As you said............in every case.......in the Acts of the Apostles.......where you find someone being water baptized....they always BELIEVE FIRST............as that is the moment of Salvation, and New Birth.
This person you are trying to help, might open a NT to Acts 8, and read where Phillip is talking to the EUNUCH, who wants to be water baptized.....and Phillip explains......."yes you may, IF YOU HAVE BELIEVED WITH ALL YOUR HEART, FIRST"/...

WATER follows Salvation............it never causes Salvation.
How could it?
Did water baptism die on the Cross for our SIN?
Did water baptism shed its Blood for our Sin?
Was water baptism raised from the Dead?

Did the dying Thief on the Cross, who is in heaven right now, get water baptized?
No he did not., and YET< there He is in Heaven right now with Jesus.

I was born again, 11 yrs before i was water baptized.
And after it was over, we stood around while they drained the baptismal water.
Someone who has no idea about the Cross, says to me....."there go all your sins, see that water"....

And i thought..........."ok, im not to insult them, as they just water baptized me, but what i was thinking was.......>"no fool, my SINS are on CHRIST 2000 years AGO< who saved me by HIS BLOOD and HIS DEATH.....proven by the Resurrection""".

Water need not apply.....

 

[Wansvic]

No, nothing happens in the "waters of baptism". That's a myth. It all happens the MOMENT a person believes in Christ.

Water baptism is a symbol for being identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection.


First, Mark 16:16 wasn't found in any of the earliest manuscripts, and showed up in later ones. Proving that v.9-20 are NOT part of the inspired message from Mark.

Second, v.16 isn't about water baptism. It's about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Again, consider Acts 11-
13 He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter.
14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”
18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

All this was BEFORE they were water baptized.

The red words all refer to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Case closed.

If water baptism was not necessary why did Peter bother to command Cornelius and others to be baptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus? He commanded it because God required everyone to do it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If water baptism was not necessary why did Peter bother to command Cornelius and others to be baptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus? He commanded it because God required everyone to do it.

Obviously as a sign of being IDENTIFIED with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection.

It is NOT necessary for salvation. Any more than circumcision is.

 

[Wansvic]

First, Mark 16:16 wasn't found in any of the earliest manuscripts, and showed up in later ones. Proving that v.9-20 are NOT part of the inspired message from Mark.

Second, v.16 isn't about water baptism. It's about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Again, consider Acts 11-
13 He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter.
14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”
18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

All this was BEFORE they were water baptized.

The red words all refer to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Case closed.

I find it interesting how people refuse to accept scripture that contradicts their understanding. Even so, I have shared many other scriptures that speak to the truth.

 

[Kidron]

Your argument is with the word of God not me.

Paul's theology and mine are hand in hand and heart to heart.

So, the issue is.......when you teach that water is REQUIRED as a PART of the "gift of Salvation" that only Christ on the Cross provides, then you are denying the Cross by trying to add water baptism to the finished work of Christ.

Are you born again?
Not water baptized, but born again by the Spirit of God, as Water can't do that for you.
If so....when you get to heaven, go directly to the "dying thief on the Cross", and tell him that he is not really saved, because according to your CHURCH, he can't be, as he was not water baptized.