The rapture and "the tribulation"
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The rapture occurs at the end of Revelation 14 (vv. 14-16). This is before the events starting in ch. 15 and into ch.16—the outpouring of God's wrath, or the "hour of trial." So yes, the rapture rescues believers from the hour of trial. The entire seven years of the tribulation is a week, not an hour.
But there will be those during this time who won't accept the mark or worship the beast. That's why it's called an hour of trial, to "test the inhabitants of the earth."
"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."—Revelation 20:4
This can't be the church because they've already been raptured. These are those who didn't take the mark or worship the beast during the hour of trial. They partake in the first resurrection (v. 5).
But there will be those during this time who won't accept the mark or worship the beast. That's why it's called an hour of trial, to "test the inhabitants of the earth."
"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."—Revelation 20:4
This can't be the church because they've already been raptured. These are those who didn't take the mark or worship the beast during the hour of trial. They partake in the first resurrection (v. 5).
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It says: "from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." The four winds are the four directions on earth; the four winds, four directions, four quarters, etc.
One end of heaven to the other means the whole world. The Greek ouranōn means "visible sky" or "atmosphere." It's not the talking about the third heaven where the Lord is.
One end of heaven to the other means the whole world. The Greek ouranōn means "visible sky" or "atmosphere." It's not the talking about the third heaven where the Lord is.
Which makes Revelation 16:15 more viable.
The Second Coming [just after Verse 1-14 of God's Wrath]
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
And then following the Second Coming
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
The Second Coming [just after Verse 1-14 of God's Wrath]
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
And then following the Second Coming
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain
1 Thessalonians 4:15
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
Then we which are alive and remain
1 Thessalonians 4:15
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
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Revelation 5:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.
They were slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony they had, they refer to Jesus as "the sovereign Lord", they are given a white robe just as those who are raptured, and these are the ones who were killed before the seal was opened, martyred during the last 2,000 years, they are then told to wait until their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters were also killed just as they were.
So the ones killed in the tribulation are brother and sisters of the martyrs, they are fellow servants of them. For example, the 12 apostles were martyred. Brothers and sisters of the 12 apostles, fellow servants of the apostles, they call Jesus Lord.
So these are believers and there is no way to say there is some greater tribulation yet to come, once you are killed there is nothing more the enemy can do, no greater tribulation after that.
They were slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony they had, they refer to Jesus as "the sovereign Lord", they are given a white robe just as those who are raptured, and these are the ones who were killed before the seal was opened, martyred during the last 2,000 years, they are then told to wait until their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters were also killed just as they were.
So the ones killed in the tribulation are brother and sisters of the martyrs, they are fellow servants of them. For example, the 12 apostles were martyred. Brothers and sisters of the 12 apostles, fellow servants of the apostles, they call Jesus Lord.
So these are believers and there is no way to say there is some greater tribulation yet to come, once you are killed there is nothing more the enemy can do, no greater tribulation after that.
Hi ResidentAlien,
Interpreting Matt.24:29-31 as representing the gathering of the church is an on-going error, as this is referring to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. While it is true that clouds and a trumpet are mentioned just as in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, they are two different events. In Matt.24:31, when the Lord sends out His angels, they will be gathering the righteous who will have made it alive through the entire period of God's wrath. When the Lord descends into the atmosphere to gather His church, angels do not gather us, but the dead are raised immortal and glorified and then those in Christ who are still alive are changed and caught up.
Matt.24:30-31 is synonymous with the parable in Matt.13:24-30, 36-43, where at the end of the age the angels will go throughout the earth and first gather the weeds/wicked and then they will gather the wheat/righteous. Again, these are living people who will have made it alive through the period of God's wrath that the angels will be gathering. Those righteous who are gathered are those who will enter into the millennial kingdom and will repopulate the earth.
It is also important to not pigeonhole the words clouds and trumpet here, as though they could not be present at both events.
The other major problem with your interpretation, is that it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which we are not appointed to suffer. You would have the church punished right alone with the wicked.
1 Thess.4:16 has the "voice of an archangel" which is in the singular. Where in Matt.24:31 the Lord sends out "His angels" which is in the plural, i.e. many angels.
Revelation is also referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and is just a more detailed account providing other characteristics. If you will notice in that same chapter that you are quoting in Rev.19:6-8, the bride/church is attending the wedding of the Lamb and is receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in V.14 the armies in heaven, which is the bride, are wearing the same fine linen and following the Lord out of heaven on white horses as He descends to the earth to end the age. This demonstrates that the bride/church would already have to be in heaven in order to follow the Lord out of heaven.
Interpreting Matt.24:29-31 as representing the gathering of the church is an on-going error, as this is referring to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. While it is true that clouds and a trumpet are mentioned just as in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, they are two different events. In Matt.24:31, when the Lord sends out His angels, they will be gathering the righteous who will have made it alive through the entire period of God's wrath. When the Lord descends into the atmosphere to gather His church, angels do not gather us, but the dead are raised immortal and glorified and then those in Christ who are still alive are changed and caught up.
Matt.24:30-31 is synonymous with the parable in Matt.13:24-30, 36-43, where at the end of the age the angels will go throughout the earth and first gather the weeds/wicked and then they will gather the wheat/righteous. Again, these are living people who will have made it alive through the period of God's wrath that the angels will be gathering. Those righteous who are gathered are those who will enter into the millennial kingdom and will repopulate the earth.
It is also important to not pigeonhole the words clouds and trumpet here, as though they could not be present at both events.
The other major problem with your interpretation, is that it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which we are not appointed to suffer. You would have the church punished right alone with the wicked.
1 Thess.4:16 has the "voice of an archangel" which is in the singular. Where in Matt.24:31 the Lord sends out "His angels" which is in the plural, i.e. many angels.
Revelation is also referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and is just a more detailed account providing other characteristics. If you will notice in that same chapter that you are quoting in Rev.19:6-8, the bride/church is attending the wedding of the Lamb and is receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in V.14 the armies in heaven, which is the bride, are wearing the same fine linen and following the Lord out of heaven on white horses as He descends to the earth to end the age. This demonstrates that the bride/church would already have to be in heaven in order to follow the Lord out of heaven.
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9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’
10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
These foolish virgins go to buy oil from someone after the other virgins were raptured. The only people I know that sell oil to believers during the tribulation are the two witnesses in Zechariah.
Zechariah 4:
11 Then I asked the angel, “What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?”
12 Again I asked him, “What are these two olive branches beside the two gold pipes that pour out golden oil?”
13 He replied, “Do you not know what these are?”
“No, my lord,” I said.
14 So he said, “These are the two who are anointed to[b] serve the Lord of all the earth.”
10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
These foolish virgins go to buy oil from someone after the other virgins were raptured. The only people I know that sell oil to believers during the tribulation are the two witnesses in Zechariah.
Zechariah 4:
11 Then I asked the angel, “What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?”
12 Again I asked him, “What are these two olive branches beside the two gold pipes that pour out golden oil?”
13 He replied, “Do you not know what these are?”
“No, my lord,” I said.
14 So he said, “These are the two who are anointed to[b] serve the Lord of all the earth.”
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Awatukee said:
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."
Yes, it is the gathering of the church (rapture). In the event above the dead in Christ rise first, then immediately following that, those still alive in Christ will be changed and caught up with those who will have just been resurrected to meet the Lord in the air.
The event of the dead resurrecting and the living believers being changed and caught up is a part of the same event of the church being gathered from the earth which will happen so quickly that it will almost be simultaneous.
Awatukee said:
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."
Yes, it is the gathering of the church (rapture). In the event above the dead in Christ rise first, then immediately following that, those still alive in Christ will be changed and caught up with those who will have just been resurrected to meet the Lord in the air.
The event of the dead resurrecting and the living believers being changed and caught up is a part of the same event of the church being gathered from the earth which will happen so quickly that it will almost be simultaneous.
Sometimes ppl do change their minds, but it can take awhile usually. It can often benefit your own self, strengthening your own position with new info etc. It's also good exercise to discuss differences using calm and friendly language. Some people cannot have a discussion without throwing insults and ad hominems at the other side.
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