Documentary—7 Pretrib Problems and the Prewrath Rapture

[GaryA]

There are NOT verses that erase the pretrib rapture verses.

Because there are no pretrib verses to erase!





Just teasin' ya Abs...

 

[Runningman]

In the end, it matters not what one believes is being taught. The Lord gave it to His Assembly for a blessing but if that blessing is missed, by faulty interpretation, the will of the Lord will take place regardless. If one believes in a pre-trib. rapture, they have possession of the entire blessing. If one believes in a mid-trib. rapture, they miss half of the blessing. And if one believes in a post-trib. rapture or non at all, they miss all of the blessing. Either wat, may the will of the Lord be accomplished.

You aren't the first person, who believes in pre-trib, I've seen say this. This isn't found in the Bible.

Where can I get a copy of the Pre-tribbers Handbook by J.N. Darby?

 

[HisKid]

You aren't the first person, who believes in pre-trib, I've seen say this. This isn't found in the Bible.

Where can I get a copy of the Pre-tribbers Handbook by J.N. Darby?

Does it really matter when a believer thinks they will be taken home? Really? Is this worth fighting over?

 

[Runningman]

Does it really matter when a believer thinks they will be taken home? Really? Is this worth fighting over?

Did you read the quote I was responding to? That person said it matters when a believer thinks they'll be taken home. Ask him why he thinks that.

 

[GaryA]

There is a group called "the Tribulation saints". They are distinct from the Church.

I totally disagree with this statement.

Left behind doctrine has introduced the term "tribulation saints" It's not a biblical definition.

True. However, it is a valid concept ("tribulation saints", not 'left behind') - because of Revelation 6:11;7:14;20:4.

 

[GaryA]

The second rapture is rev 14
Gathering of the jews.
That is during the gt.
Main harvest is gentile( ruth) and is pretrib.

There is a second resurrection.

There is not a second rapture.

Revelation 14:14-16 is talking about the-one-and-only rapture.

 

[GaryA]

The lesson here is that those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ are NOT subject to the wrath of God.

I am quite sure that we are all in total agreement concerning what the Bible says about the saints not having to experience the 'Wrath of God'.

What is in dispute is just-exactly-what constitutes the 'Wrath of God'.

Question:

If pretrib folks believe that no saint / saved-person / one-who-believes-in-the-Lord-Jesus-Christ will experience any part of the 'Wrath of God' - and - they also believe that the [whole] '7-year tribulation' is the 'Wrath of God' - and - they also believe that there will be [martyred] saints during that tribulation --- isn't there a conflict here???

 

[Absolutely]

My point still stands, if the marriage of the Lamb occurs upon His return to the earth pre-trib then the two witnesses and the tribulation saints will remain unmarried. There's no mention of more than one wedding supper and marriage.

The only neat fit for the supper/marriage is post-trib. This way the totality of Christ's church is included.

The bride is gathered pretrib.
The supper in heaven is toward the end of the 7 yr trib.

 

[Ruby123]

I am quite sure that we are all in total agreement concerning what the Bible says about the saints not having to experience the 'Wrath of God'.

What is in dispute is just-exactly-what constitutes the 'Wrath of God'.

Question:

If pretrib folks believe that no saint / saved-person / one-who-believes-in-the-Lord-Jesus-Christ will experience any part of the 'Wrath of God' - and - they also believe that the [whole] '7-year tribulation' is the 'Wrath of God' - and - they also believe that there will be [martyred] saints during that tribulation --- isn't there a conflict here???

No, the martyred saints are the ones who will come to believe during the tribulation. You know our stubborn family members and friends who refuse to believe now. Then rapture occurs and they suddenly think maybe they were telling the truth. So they become saved, dont get the mark and are martyred.
I know many who are going to leave behind notes, videos etc to their family members to instruct them as to what to do if this should occur. i dont know why you dont believe this Gary?

 

[rayzor]

so the goods guys have the seal of god on their foreheads Rev 9:4 & Ezek 9:4 Theirs a parallel in deut somewhere.

 

[GaryA]

true . but the great persecution is not to be compared to anything else that has gone before, even the holocaust.

And this assumption has caused a multitude of saints to get off-track and go into error concerning the End Times Scenario.

I believe the Bible tells us clearly when the 'Great Tribulation' begins - and, when it ends.

I believe we have seen the beginning point in time but not the end point in time.

Therefore, we are in it now.

All of the "great tribulation" of the past ~2000 years - the Dark Ages, the World Wars, the other major wars, the holocaust, and all the rest - are all part of the 'Great Tribulation'. It began circa 70 A.D. and will end in the future.

All of the "you will suffer persecution" tribulation - collectively - is the 'Great Tribulation' - "never anything like it" before or after.

The worst is yet to come.

It is all part of the same [long] 'period'.

Has 'conflict', 'persecution', or 'tribulation' really ever stopped during the past ~2000 years?

Do you really think it will stop before Jesus returns?

People always want to say that the 'Great Tribulation' is a "special" time of tribulation that is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 times worse than anything that has ever happened before it.

And then most of them want to say:

"But we don't have to go through it."

But very precious few seem to realize that it is a long period of time rather than a short one.

Do you realize that Matthew 24:23-26 / Mark 13:21-23 is a description of things occurring during the 'Great Tribulation'?

Do you really think this is a short period of time?

Do you realize that Matthew 24:22 / Mark 13:20 is not talking about circa 70 A.D.?

Do you realize that Luke 21:24 is talking about a long period of time and not a short one?

It's in the details, folks.

It's all there.

You just have to give up on what you want it to be and decide that knowing the real actual truth is more important.

 

[GaryA]

So they become saved, dont get the mark and are martyred.

And suffer through the 'Wrath of God' - apparently, according to you?

Or, did you misread or misunderstand the question?

 

[Ruby123]

And suffer through the 'Wrath of God' - apparently, according to you?

Or, did you misread or misunderstand the question?

These people would have missed the time of grace, therefore will go through tribulation till the time of martydom/beheading. The time of grace is for the world until x time. If you do not become saved before the time of grace is up and therefore do not get raptured , you will still go through x amount of tribulation. At least you get to spend eternity with Jesus.

 

[Rockson]

No, the martyred saints are the ones who will come to believe during the tribulation. You know our stubborn family members and friends who refuse to believe now. Then rapture occurs and they suddenly think maybe they were telling the truth. So they become saved, dont get the mark and are martyred.

Problem with this is that therefore means if the Seals constitute the wrath of God as Pre-tribulation advocates say that means the 5th Seal in Rev 6 is the wrath of God upon his own people. The Seals therefore can't be the wrath of God but are merely revealers of different things which will occur.

 

[GaryA]

Problem with this is that therefore means if the Seals constitute the wrath of God as Pre-tribulation advocates say that means the 5th Seal in Rev 6 is the wrath of God upon his own people. The Seals therefore can't be the wrath of God but are merely revealers of different things which will occur.

The key word here being 'revealer'.

While the seals represent Judgment, the opening of a seal (by Jesus, in John's vision) represents a kind of 'portal' through which John could see certain 'details' about historical events.

What is interesting is - that the seals are a mixture of 'symbolic' and 'literal' detail:

~ The first four seals are certainly symbolic in nature.

~ The fifth seal most definitely seems to be a very literal descriprion of an actual occurance.

~ The sixth seal presents as at-least-mostly (if not entirely) literal.

~ The seventh seal seems to be a mixture of symbolic and literal.

I believe that both groups of saints referred to in the seal five description are "tribulation saints" - the first group is from the Dark Ages - and, the second group is those who do not worship the beast and take the mark...

 

[GaryA]

These people would have missed the time of grace, therefore will go through tribulation till the time of martydom/beheading. The time of grace is for the world until x time. If you do not become saved before the time of grace is up and therefore do not get raptured , you will still go through x amount of tribulation. At least you get to spend eternity with Jesus.

And suffer through the 'Wrath of God' - apparently, according to you?

Or, did you misread or misunderstand the question?

 

[GaryA]

These people would have missed the time of grace, therefore will go through tribulation till the time of martydom/beheading. The time of grace is for the world until x time. If you do not become saved before the time of grace is up and therefore do not get raptured , you will still go through x amount of tribulation. At least you get to spend eternity with Jesus.

Would you like for me to show you how that - the very moment 'Grace' ends - is the very same moment the Second Coming of Christ occurs - with the 'Wrath of God' soon following?

Do you realize that the moment 'Grace' ends - no one can be saved?

There is no 'Grace - [then] no Grace - [then] Grace again' in the End Times Scenario.

 

[GaryA]

Where can I get a copy of the Pre-tribbers Handbook by J.N. Darby?

Scofield Bible?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You are missing the point entirely.
Neither example - yours or mine - is any part of the 'Wrath of God'.
Both are examples of the wrath of Satan.
Any 'trouble'/'tribulation' that is "dished out" by Satan is the wrath of Satan and not the 'Wrath of God'.
Any 'trouble'/'tribulation' that is "dished out" by 'Antichrist' is the wrath of 'Antichrist' and not the 'Wrath of God'.

Keep in mind a few things (which I've pointed out before)...

Notice:

--in 1Th1:10 "the One delivering US out-from THE WRATH COMING"; and 1Th5:9 "For God hath not appointed US to WRATH, but to..."...NEITHER of these "specify" that it's only God's wrath being referred to
(IOW, this can ALSO be covering what you are considering "the wrath of Satan" ["having great wrath because he knoweth he hath but A SHORT TIME"--referring to the "1260 days" SECOND HALF of the future "7 yrs"] and what you are calling "the wrath of Antichrist" [I'm assuming you would place this within those same "42 mos" per Rev13:5-7,1 / Dan7:20-24,25--i.e. the SECOND HALF of those "7 yrs"]);

--those 2 verses I supplied above (with the "US" word I bolded) are in the context where the "US" refers solely to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]")... it is not a blanket promise that covers all believers/saints of all OTHER time-periods (but solely pertaining to "US" / "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," per context);

--I've shown in past posts the parallel language between 2Th2:7b-8a ("the One restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [/come to be]. AND THEN [kai tote] shall that Wicked be revealed...") to that of Lam2:3-4 (in the midst of "wrath" words in that context, where it also says [parallel language to the passage in 2Th ^ ], "...he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy...," i.e. lifting the restraint; letting "the enemy" be no longer restrained...); bearing in mind that this 2Th2 passage would be equivalent to Seal #1, aka the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3, Matt24:4/Mk13:5]" at the ARRIVAL / START of "the DOTL" time-period--aka the 7-yr TRIB aspect [/"IN THE NIGHT"] (as I've pointed out in the posts covering the "chronology issues" so I won't go into here in this post), where Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1 INCLUDES the Rev6 SEALS in its "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (not unfold over the course of some 2000 years);

--the SEALS being parallel to "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of [and Paul did too (in the SINGULAR), as I just pointed out, about 1Th5:2-3 re: the DOTL's "ARRIVAL" point in time (i.e. Matt24:4/Mk13:5 = SEAL #1)], shows that Seal #5 (trib saint martyrs) were basically told straight-up by Jesus (parallel SEAL #5) "[Matt24:9] Then shall they deliver YOU [tho being believers-in-Me] up to be afflicted, and shall KILL YOU [tho being believers-in-Me]; and YE [believers-in-Me] shall be hated of all the nations FOR MY NAME'S SAKE"--My view is, just because the SEALS are included in the time-period involving "wrath" does NOT mean that God's wrath is directly against ALL who will EXIST on the earth during that time-period (many people will be coming to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" [Lk21:36 applies directly TO THEM, being DURING those Trib yrs], and they will indeed "suffer" many things during that specific, future, LIMITED time-period); IOW, ALL of Matt24:3-Matt25 is covering what will occur FOLLOWING "our Rapture";

--the VIALS / BOWLS are said of them, "for IN THEM the wrath of God IS COMPLETED" (not "IS STARTED [at this point, only] and COMPLETED");

--I had one other point... but since I almost lost all of the content of this post, will send it off now and perhaps come back to that point at a later time... (hope the above points have sufficed to at least touch on what it is I hope to communicate... )

 

[surfer14]

The best argument for a pre-trib rapture is that Jesus didn't have to suffer at all, and therefore Christians should not expect to suffer either during any tribulation period. Paul didn't suffer at all. Peter didn't suffer at all. We won't suffer at all, because God will take us away in his rapture before we have to suffer. Just like Jesus.