Documentary—7 Pretrib Problems and the Prewrath Rapture

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
113
God's people had to do something to receive His protection. The Hebrews had to mark their doors. Noah had to build a boat. Why should we believe we'll get a free pass?
Hello JTB,

The blood on the door post was a shadow of what the Lord would do by shedding His blood for the forgiveness of sins. Our part is having faith from beginning to end. I would refer you back to Ephesians 2:8

"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast."

Aaron56 is correct in that, our salvation isn't free. Jesus, having no sin, paid the penalty for our sins, the righteous for the unrighteous.
 

JTB

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2021
2,077
637
113
Hello JTB,

The blood on the door post was a shadow of what the Lord would do by shedding His blood for the forgiveness of sins. Our part is having faith from beginning to end. I would refer you back to Ephesians 2:8

"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast."

Aaron56 is correct in that, our salvation isn't free. Jesus, having no sin, paid the penalty for our sins, the righteous for the unrighteous.
No argument there, but ya did kinda miss the point.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
God's people had to do something to receive His protection. The Hebrews had to mark their doors. Noah had to build a boat. Why should we believe we'll get a free pass?
Yep, the theory that the only way to protect from God wrapt is rapture is unbiblical the mighty God have millions way to protect His people. He protect Daniel in the middle of hot fire, From hungry lion etc.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,215
1,980
113
He protect Daniel in the middle of hot fire
Daniel was not in the fire / furnace. His "three friends" were.

Daniel was elsewhere, at that time.

Guess where.



____________

Daniel 3:20 -

"20 And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace."
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,215
1,980
113
^ FTR, I am a "pre-tribber" and I DO NOT believe one can lose (or "forfeit") salvation.



[Jacob Prasch--post-tribber--DOES believe such a thing... so it kinda works both ways, right?? IOW, being "pre-trib" does NOT equate to the belief that one can "lose salvation" ;) ]
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
1,540
456
83
68
I don't really want to debate the severe flaws of Calvinism with you in this thread. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I didn't ask you to debate Calvinism with me. Calvinism isn't in view, in my post.

I asked you simply: How can one expand words that are limited in there scope. How can "few" or "many" become all? How can "sheep", who the Shepherd calls by name, become the whole of humanity? If you are not willing to answer these questions, then you really don't care about what the Scriptures TRULY teach.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,679
113
I didn't ask you to debate Calvinism with me. Calvinism isn't in view, in my post.

I asked you simply: How can one expand words that are limited in there scope. How can "few" or "many" become all? How can "sheep", who the Shepherd calls by name, become the whole of humanity? If you are not willing to answer these questions, then you really don't care about what the Scriptures TRULY teach.
You got it all wrong and can't see any other way. There isn't much point talking, but if you insist I can try to go an extra mile with you. Have you ever read John 3:16 before? How about 1 John 2:2? Try those and see if you still think Christ is not a world Savior.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,481
12,950
113
I didn't ask you to debate Calvinism with me. Calvinism isn't in view, in my post.

I asked you simply: How can one expand words that are limited in there scope. How can "few" or "many" become all? How can "sheep", who the Shepherd calls by name, become the whole of humanity? If you are not willing to answer these questions, then you really don't care about what the Scriptures TRULY teach.
In connection with salvation, the words "all", "many", and "few" are all applicable in their proper contexts.

1. Salvation is offered to ALL since God desires the salvation of ALL.

2. Christ died for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD.

3. MANY are called (through the Gospel) but the FEW (who obey the Gospel) are saved.

4. Those who are saved become the SHEEP of the Great Shepherd. All others are outside the fold.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
113
In connection with salvation, the words "all", "many", and "few" are all applicable in their proper contexts.

1. Salvation is offered to ALL since God desires the salvation of ALL.

2. Christ died for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD.

3. MANY are called (through the Gospel) but the FEW (who obey the Gospel) are saved.

4. Those who are saved become the SHEEP of the Great Shepherd. All others are outside the fold.
Hi Nehemiah,

You know that I don't agree with that. 'the whole world' would be those whose names were written in the book of life before the world began. This is demonstrated in Revelation by the following scripture:

"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."

"And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be."

These scriptures tell us two things:

1). There were names chosen for salvation who were written in the book of life and names that were not written.

2). Their names were written in the book of life before the world even began

Then you have the following scriptures:

"When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who [were appointed for eternal life believed."]

To you who believe, then, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected

has become the cornerstone,”

and,

“A stone of stumbling

and a rock of offense.”

They stumble because they disobey the word—[and to this they were appointed]
=========================================================================

So, according to these scriptures, some were appointed to believe and others were appointed not to believe. Those who were appointed, their names are among those that were written before the world began. Those who were appointed to not believe, their names were not written. We have other scriptures which demonstrate God's Sovereign election in the follow scripture:

"Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom [prepared for you from the foundation of the world.]

The above is of course speaking regarding the sheep and the goat judgment. Notice that the millennial kingdom was prepared for them before the world began, but not for the others. As it is stated in Romans regarding salvation:

"So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.

The saved and unsaved was determined by God's Sovereign choice for His own pleasure and will. So when it says, "God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish," the world represents those whose names were written in the book of life before the world began. God is the One who did the choosing and saving. It's not a free-for-all invite!
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,620
577
113
I predict pre-tribbers will hate it. Others might learn something from it. Still some pre-tribbers might be convinced to change their mind but I'm not holding my breath. If someone can't be convinced by this film, I don't know what it will take. :)
This is what its truly about. One of things I just loved about the late Chuck Missler was when he would share something then add "don't take my word for it don't believe me you search you find this out for your self". Never followed the man but.. many do not say this they tell you what they believe and that is the truth.

For me I always want to know just who are you in cases like this video? One voice talks about what pre trib believe. Well just one "if your sinning Jesus won't take you". I can give you a HUGE list of only known preachers that believe pre trib and not ONE says that. There are some I disagree with ..thats me but some pre trib beileve all Christians will go. No one here is going to show us "Post trib" verse nor "pre trib" verse. We all will give verses and tell share just why we believe what we believe. Most will never tell you "YOUR WRONG" foolish. They say "well this is why I believe is post". Those are the ones you love to talk to..debate with. There not here to show you YOUR wrong.. just to TALK SHARE the word of God. Both want to see what the other is seeing for they know they could be wrong.

Haha.. since I just LOVE music.. singing, making.. as I am sure most here do the lol song that just pops up is The Imperials "We gotta watch, we gotta pray We gotta keep on looking For that very special day, gotta work for it won't be long 'Til we join our friends and loved ones All around the throne. The day that Jesus left here He said that He'd return again And to everyone who looked for Him He said that He'd return for them. And if it happened any moment now Are you watching and prepared For the day that Jesus calls us home And we'll meet Him in the air'

So.. for me forgive me just another "I am right your wrong" I refer you back to the ops post. Oh "hate it" really? You couldn't have said " I think pre tribbers will disagree I love to hear why"
 

Marilyn

Active member
Jul 27, 2021
998
200
43
Hello Marilyn,

If you are saying that we are meeting the Lord in the air and then escorting Him somewhere else other than back to heaven, then I would have to wholeheartedly disagree. When the Lord appears He will fulfill His promise in John 14:1-3. He said that He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for us and that He would come back to get us and take us back there, so that where He is we may be also, which would be the Father's house. It would make no sense for the Lord to go and prepare places for us and then not take us there.

John 14:1-3 and 1 Thessalonians go hand-in-hand, with 1 Thessalonians being the detailed account of His returning to get us. It is Jesus who will be escorting His church back to the Father's house.
Hi A,

And who was the Lord promising that too? Remember that the Body of Christ was not known at that point.

When we go with Jesus, we will go to the third heaven, the angelic realm where Christ will be visibly crowned and ruler over all God`s great Kingdom.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
113
Hi A,

And who was the Lord promising that too? Remember that the Body of Christ was not known at that point.
Hello,

He was speaking to the disciples, who were apart of the body of Christ. The disciples represent the first elders of the church. Therefore, the promise is to them and all who have believed their message up until the Lord appears to gather the entire church, which ends the church period. To be clear, the promise of going to prepare places is for all believers and not just the disciples. This ties in with 1 Thess.4:16-17 when the Lord appears in the atmosphere and resurrects the dead, with the living being changed and caught up with them. At this point the Lord will take the entire church, His bride, back to the Father's house in heaven to those places that He went to prepare.

During that time each believer will stand at the Bema Seat of Christ to be judged, not for sin, but to receive rewards or loss of rewards. Some time after that believers will all be present at the wedding of the Lamb, where the bride will receive her fine linen, bright and clean. After that in verse 14, the armies of heaven (the bride/church) will be following the Lord out of heaven to the earth riding on white horses. - Revelation 19:6-8, 14

Everything that the Lord said to the disciples should be applied to all believers, except in those cases when He spoke to them personally.
 

Marilyn

Active member
Jul 27, 2021
998
200
43
Hello,

He was speaking to the disciples, who were apart of the body of Christ. The disciples represent the first elders of the church. Therefore, the promise is to them and all who have believed their message up until the Lord appears to gather the entire church, which ends the church period. To be clear, the promise of going to prepare places is for all believers and not just the disciples. This ties in with 1 Thess.4:16-17 when the Lord appears in the atmosphere and resurrects the dead, with the living being changed and caught up with them. At this point the Lord will take the entire church, His bride, back to the Father's house in heaven to those places that He went to prepare.

During that time each believer will stand at the Bema Seat of Christ to be judged, not for sin, but to receive rewards or loss of rewards. Some time after that believers will all be present at the wedding of the Lamb, where the bride will receive her fine linen, bright and clean. After that in verse 14, the armies of heaven (the bride/church) will be following the Lord out of heaven to the earth riding on white horses. - Revelation 19:6-8, 14

Everything that the Lord said to the disciples should be applied to all believers, except in those cases when He spoke to them personally.
Actually the 12 disciples are NOT in the Body of Christ. They looked for the coming rulership of the Lord through Israel.

`Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom (rule) to Israel? `(Acts 1: 6)

They were promised rulership over the 12 tribes of Israel.

`So Jesus said to them,...."you who have followed me will also sit on thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel.` (Matt. 19: 28)

The revelation of the Body of Christ was given to the Apostle Paul. Remember Peter tried to get the Gentile believers to act like Jews. Paul had to admonish him.

`I (Paul) said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of the Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as Jews?` (Gal. 2: 14)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,481
12,950
113
You know that I don't agree with that. 'the whole world' would be those whose names were written in the book of life before the world began.
Actually all names are written in the Book of Life, since God desires the salvation of all. Then they are BLOTTED OUT as God sees their response to Him, or to Christ, or to the Gospel. How do we know this? From Scripture.

Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the Book of the Living, and not be written with the righteous. (Ps 69:28)

So sinners names are originally in the Book of the Living or the Book of Life. Then they are blotted out as iniquity is added to iniquity. This is exactly what was revealed when God spoke to Moses about this Book.

Exodus 32: Sinners are blotted out of the Book of Life when they do not repent
31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy Book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my Book.
34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
7,591
3,174
113
I found this video on pastor Steven Anderson, the guy who was in the video posted earlier, "After The Tribulation." It's long, but it's a great exposé. Anyone who's curious about this guy will find it very informative.

It's from a Catholic channel and comes from faith + works position. It also teaches that once saved always saved is false. I happen to agree with this part.

 
Aug 20, 2021
1,863
310
83
Joe 3:10
Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.[It translates: turn yourselfs into a weapon...and your tools into weapons of war!That u can say i am strong!
I found this video on pastor Steven Anderson, the guy who was in the video posted earlier, "After The Tribulation." It's long, but it's a great exposé. Anyone who's curious about this guy will find it very informative.

It's from a Catholic channel and comes from faith + works position. It also teaches that once saved always saved is false. I happen to agree with this part.

Dam good greek teacher....He has trouble with hate
 
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
Actually all names are written in the Book of Life, since God desires the salvation of all. Then they are BLOTTED OUT as God sees their response to Him, or to Christ, or to the Gospel. How do we know this? From Scripture.

Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the Book of the Living, and not be written with the righteous. (Ps 69:28)

So sinners names are originally in the Book of the Living or the Book of Life. Then they are blotted out as iniquity is added to iniquity. This is exactly what was revealed when God spoke to Moses about this Book.

Exodus 32: Sinners are blotted out of the Book of Life when they do not repent
31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy Book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my Book.
34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.
Excellent scripture detail - love it - thank you

i see a contrast to this (i am not disagreeing with you) in John 3: 18, which says the opposite - yes/no???
 
Aug 20, 2021
1,863
310
83
Excellent scripture detail - love it - thank you

i see a contrast to this (i am not disagreeing with you) in John 3: 18, which says the opposite - yes/no???
love keeps no record of wrongs...is your name written in the book of life?:unsure: