How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church
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They rise within same hour as the others. Scripture doesn't tell us if they are raised back to mortals or if receive an immortal body before they go to heaven. I normally think of it as a sign of the coming larger resurrection. It also serves to prove to world the God they have been worshiping is a false god since he killed two prophets and someone else (real God) resurrects them.
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It does teach that Church will be spared the satanic persecutions of great trib. The bible however not say the church will be removed before that tribulation period. Jesus described church being persecuted by enemy in Olivet discourse, and In Rev we again see church (the believers in Christ) being persecuted by and even overcome and killed matching what had told us.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Kinda hard to see AoD and flee to mountains if you are raptured up to heaven before this happens.
Pretrib simply isn't in the bible. Only posttrib is there.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
That's great tribulation and it is satan persecuting the church!
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Kinda hard to see AoD and flee to mountains if you are raptured up to heaven before this happens.
Pretrib simply isn't in the bible. Only posttrib is there.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
That's great tribulation and it is satan persecuting the church!
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As to your first paragraph, at the begining of the 70th week of Daniel the church is raptured. Subsequently, some people who remain on earth do turn to Christ and become Christians. Those left behind do suffer under the AC.
As to your second paragraph, I never said God's wrath is upon believers.
Best regards.
As to your second paragraph, I never said God's wrath is upon believers.
Best regards.
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As to your first paragraph, at the begining of the 70th week of Daniel the church is raptured. Subsequently, some people who remain on earth do turn to Christ and become Christians. Those left behind do suffer under the AC.
As to your second paragraph, I never said God's wrath is upon believers.
Best regards.
As to your second paragraph, I never said God's wrath is upon believers.
Best regards.
You also added to Scripture which is forbidden including you stating there are two(2) Returns of the Lord.
TRUTH is only one Second Coming of the Lord, as Jesus said Himself and the Apostles and Revelation.
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i just sat own and read thru Revelation again just to refresh and make certain i did not miss anything.
As i am reading Rev, the Gospels and the Apostles writings are being compared - all is intact and in harmony.
Once again, no one is able to find a pre-trib rapture in scripture before the first resurrection.
Pre-trib is man made and must be propped up by the word of man to stand by "adding to and taking away from God's words."
As i am reading Rev, the Gospels and the Apostles writings are being compared - all is intact and in harmony.
Once again, no one is able to find a pre-trib rapture in scripture before the first resurrection.
Pre-trib is man made and must be propped up by the word of man to stand by "adding to and taking away from God's words."
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It does teach that Church will be spared the satanic persecutions of great trib. The bible however not say the church will be removed before that tribulation period. Jesus described church being persecuted by enemy in Olivet discourse, and In Rev we again see church (the believers in Christ) being persecuted by and even overcome and killed matching what had told us.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Kinda hard to see AoD and flee to mountains if you are raptured up to heaven before this happens.
Pretrib simply isn't in the bible. Only posttrib is there.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
That's great tribulation and it is satan persecuting the church!
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Kinda hard to see AoD and flee to mountains if you are raptured up to heaven before this happens.
Pretrib simply isn't in the bible. Only posttrib is there.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
That's great tribulation and it is satan persecuting the church!
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ewq, I'm trying to grasp what you are saying ^ by the bold (and especially the sections I underlined ^ ).
Could you please clarify what you are saying here ^ ?
Can you please define who you're talking about where you've put "they" and "the others"...
And what are you meaning by "rise"--whether you mean by this "be resurrected from the dead" or "go up to Heaven"?
I think I gather that you are referring to the "2W" here (by the words: "they" here ^ ), right? I "get" this sentence of yours.
I cannot tell if you are applying this sentence of yours, here ^ , to the text of what Rev11 is saying (in relation to the "2W");...
...or whether you are saying that ordinarily you would "think of it" [/such a thing] as a sign of "the coming larger resurrection" (not that you are saying this of the "2W" resurrecting. as being a "sign" of something that will LATER take place... are you??)
IOW, I still cannot tell by reading your post whether you believe that the "2W" are resurrected from the dead--and subsequently / right-afterward "raptured" up into Heaven--AT THE SAME TIME that all other "saints" (i.e. "the dead in Christ") will be--the text stating that this is at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" (that is, BEFORE the "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe")...
...or whether you believe the "2W" experience this PRIOR to when the other saints will be (like, say, the other saints experience it at the "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe" time-slot, instead... following the other at a later point in time).
Care to clarify what you mean? I find I can read what you wrote in a few different ways, ways that you may have not intended... but I'd like to understand exactly what *you* actually do intend.
Thanks, ewq!
Could you please clarify what you are saying here ^ ?
Can you please define who you're talking about where you've put "they" and "the others"...
And what are you meaning by "rise"--whether you mean by this "be resurrected from the dead" or "go up to Heaven"?
I think I gather that you are referring to the "2W" here (by the words: "they" here ^ ), right? I "get" this sentence of yours.
I cannot tell if you are applying this sentence of yours, here ^ , to the text of what Rev11 is saying (in relation to the "2W");...
...or whether you are saying that ordinarily you would "think of it" [/such a thing] as a sign of "the coming larger resurrection" (not that you are saying this of the "2W" resurrecting. as being a "sign" of something that will LATER take place... are you??)
IOW, I still cannot tell by reading your post whether you believe that the "2W" are resurrected from the dead--and subsequently / right-afterward "raptured" up into Heaven--AT THE SAME TIME that all other "saints" (i.e. "the dead in Christ") will be--the text stating that this is at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" (that is, BEFORE the "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe")...
...or whether you believe the "2W" experience this PRIOR to when the other saints will be (like, say, the other saints experience it at the "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe" time-slot, instead... following the other at a later point in time).
Care to clarify what you mean? I find I can read what you wrote in a few different ways, ways that you may have not intended... but I'd like to understand exactly what *you* actually do intend.
Thanks, ewq!
I always wonder how God treats each of us different. By that I mean hearing the same questions over and over by billions yet answers it as if that was the first time He heard it. Its this "No one taught a pre-trib rapture until John Darby, and Anglican preacher, in the mid 1800s." Did we read it? LaHayes, Robert Norton, Margaret Macdonald? 1830? All this and more if we are focusing on that time period.
It was much harder when I searched and found that hymn writer that wrote scrolls this is, lol ON LINE where they posted about this hymn writer (showed the scrolls) talking about Jesus coming back getting the church before the great tribulation. Then after some time watching TBN Grant Jeffery.. oh i JUST lol found him again died in 2012 I think. I was always searching because of posts like this looking for him under Greg Geoffery Lol I don't know I forgot his name. But one night he was talking about that SAME hymn writer and on TBN showed that scroll where you could see everything that was written. Then some time later showed even more scrolls from others who talked about "Caught up" Rapture. That Hymn writer was 300-400ad.
You know this has never made be feel better about knowing this why? Its proves nothing.. nothing more then someone like you me that love the lord believed Jesus coming before the great tribulation. So why do some not search? I would have to speculate I think because it will take days weeks to find all this or scared.. yeah I don't know. Then they dont just sharing what they find its telling you what they personally believe. This is just a taste of what I found.. I just do not debate.. post everything I know any more. What I found. Knowing all this .. you can still believe post trib. This here is NOT the word of God.
It was much harder when I searched and found that hymn writer that wrote scrolls this is, lol ON LINE where they posted about this hymn writer (showed the scrolls) talking about Jesus coming back getting the church before the great tribulation. Then after some time watching TBN Grant Jeffery.. oh i JUST lol found him again died in 2012 I think. I was always searching because of posts like this looking for him under Greg Geoffery Lol I don't know I forgot his name. But one night he was talking about that SAME hymn writer and on TBN showed that scroll where you could see everything that was written. Then some time later showed even more scrolls from others who talked about "Caught up" Rapture. That Hymn writer was 300-400ad.
You know this has never made be feel better about knowing this why? Its proves nothing.. nothing more then someone like you me that love the lord believed Jesus coming before the great tribulation. So why do some not search? I would have to speculate I think because it will take days weeks to find all this or scared.. yeah I don't know. Then they dont just sharing what they find its telling you what they personally believe. This is just a taste of what I found.. I just do not debate.. post everything I know any more. What I found. Knowing all this .. you can still believe post trib. This here is NOT the word of God.
Yes, the earliest writings we have are along the lines of what we now call premil. Some, like Justin Martyrs, are rather specific about believing in an actual 1000 year reign.
But as far as your last comment goes, the big problem with pretrib is the fact that the Bible does not teach it. In Matthew 24, the gathering together of the elect is set 'after the tribulation of those days. Paul refers to the rapture as our gathering unto Him in II Thessalonians. I Thessalonians sets the rapture at the coming of the Lord. II Thessalonians tells us that 'that wicked' which I think we know means the man of sin, is destroyed at the brightness of Jesus' coming. So the rapture at Jesus' coming and the destruction of the man of sin at the Lord's coming. That doesn't fit with pretrib at all.
II Thessalonians 1 shows that Jesus returns and gives the church rest while at the same time executing vengence on them that know not God.
Typically, pre-trib is assumed and other scriptures are explained around it.
But as far as your last comment goes, the big problem with pretrib is the fact that the Bible does not teach it. In Matthew 24, the gathering together of the elect is set 'after the tribulation of those days. Paul refers to the rapture as our gathering unto Him in II Thessalonians. I Thessalonians sets the rapture at the coming of the Lord. II Thessalonians tells us that 'that wicked' which I think we know means the man of sin, is destroyed at the brightness of Jesus' coming. So the rapture at Jesus' coming and the destruction of the man of sin at the Lord's coming. That doesn't fit with pretrib at all.
II Thessalonians 1 shows that Jesus returns and gives the church rest while at the same time executing vengence on them that know not God.
Typically, pre-trib is assumed and other scriptures are explained around it.
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God's wrath comes when the trib is over not during it. It's Satan's wrath during that time when he is overcoming the saints and killing them. Also, God can pour his wrath out and not accidentally hit the good guys. Howver, when it's time for God's wrath, his people will be raptured and immortal and in the clouds.
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The two prophets in Rev 11 come back to life before 7th trump sounds. It sounds within the hour and that's when all dead in Christ rise.
They are two prophets, the others are the dead in Christ. They all don't rise at the same time.
Rise from the dead.
Yes, I already said exactly that.
The text only speaks of two prophets rising from dead and then going up into heaven so I use that language. That happens before the 7th trump and the larger group rising from dead of the dead in Christ.
They are two prophets, the others are the dead in Christ. They all don't rise at the same time.
Rise from the dead.
Yes, I already said exactly that.
The text only speaks of two prophets rising from dead and then going up into heaven so I use that language. That happens before the 7th trump and the larger group rising from dead of the dead in Christ.
Just wondering if 'tribes of the earth' is Graecized Hebrew language where 'earth' may refer to the 'land' as in the land of Israel. Ha Eretz can mean the earth or the land and sometimes means the land of Israel. I'm thinking of the tribes lamenting in Zecharias in the 'look on Him Whom they pierced' passage.
The elect are gathered together after the tribulation in this passage in Matthew 24. Paul refers to the rapture as the gathering in II Thessalonians 2, also.
Matthew 24
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
II Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
The elect are gathered together after the tribulation in this passage in Matthew 24. Paul refers to the rapture as the gathering in II Thessalonians 2, also.
Matthew 24
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
II Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
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FWIIW - I believe the original [good] manuscripts for the N.T. were the Koine Greek Textus Receptus.
In other words, it was originally written in Greek.
Consider the scope of this verse:
Revelation 1:
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Just/Only Israel?
Kinda doubt it...
In other words, it was originally written in Greek.
Consider the scope of this verse:
Revelation 1:
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Just/Only Israel?
Kinda doubt it...