predestination vs freewill

[rogerg]

Moreover, Paul quite clearly teaches that this justification comes after our faith and as God’s response to our faith. He says that God “justifies him who has faith in Jesus” (Rom. 3:26), and that “a man is justified by faith apart from works of law” (Rom. 3:28). He says, “Since we are justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:1). Moreover, “a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ” (Gal. 2:16). Just what is justification? We may define it as follows: Justification is an instantaneous legal act of God in which he (1) thinks of our sins as forgiven and Christ’s righteousness as belonging to us, and (2) declares us to be righteous in his sight.

No it's by Christ's faithfulness.

Rom 3:26 does not address who, or why, someone comes to a belief in Christ and therefore can not support your position.
In other words, the identification of those who are justified is not addressed in this verse.
My point is that those who come to a true faith in Christ, gain that faith as a result of salvation -- not because salvation was caused by their faith.

"[Rom 3:26 KJV]
26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

[Eph 2:8 KJV]
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Consider what you are saying: that we are saved by our work of faith. Were that so, then we would be our own savior

In Rom 3:28 it is Christ's faith, not ours
[Rom 3:28 KJV] 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Consider that in verse 3:26, we are informed that Christ is the justifier ("His righteousness"), but, according to your interpretation of 3:28 man becomes the justifier ("a man is justified by faith"), so if Christ is the justifier as we are told in 3:28 but man is the justified by his own faith, then a contradiction exists.
Read both verses closely - it can't be the way you've interpreted them because by that they would be in conflict with each other. However, with my interpretation in that both the justifier and the faith are Christ's, both verses come into complete harmony- which harmony must always be present within the Bible.

The same response also applies to Rom 5:1

Regarding Gal 2:16. You say that the reading has to be “by the faith of Christ” because "in" is not present in the text. But you now place “of” in the text and it is not in the text so that point would not hold. But even if we were to use “of” it would not help your case. When you us faith of Jesus or faith in Jesus we are both saying the fidelity, faithfulness or the character of one who can be relied on. And I am surprised that you would not agree with that as that is the view expressed in the calvinist quotes that I gave you. What I see is that you want to read into the text what you think has to be there to support your calvinism. Did you even bother to read the quotes? Tell me where did you study your Greek as you must be better than all those Calvinists that I quoted.

"in" is in the verse but only in one part. If God wanted to say "faith in Christ" throughout, He would have used "in" throughout - "in" is an actual Greek word. But, because "in" is present in only one place, and not in the others, the interpretation for the others MUST be that is by Christ's faith (not ours) since "in" isn't there.
Christ was perfectly faithful to the God the Father in accomplishing that which had been assigned to Him by the Father. That is the faith which is in view when "faith of Christ" is used and the faith that saves: we are saved by Christ's faithfulness, not ours - all of our works are as dirty rags to the Father, none worthy of salvation.

No, I didn't read your quotes because I don't read Calvin and so they are not pertinent to the discussion as far as I'm concerned.

Php 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; NKJV

Here's what Php 3:9 really says:

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Same disagreement as with Gal 2:16

Jas 2:20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? NKJV

The righteousness which God imparted is based on the faith or trust we have in Christ Jesus. This righteousness, imparted to believers in salvation, enables them to live a separated, sanctified, life of holiness and service. This verse has nothing to do with God giving faith but it has everything to do with faith being a requirement for a person being accounted as righteous.

Jas 2:20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? NKJV

Just because the words faith and works are in the same sentence does not mean that faith is a work. If you had read this verse in context you would know what it means. Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. Works will never save you but James is saying is that if you really have a saving faith you will do good works.

No, that is not what James is saying and what you said isn't logical. Doesn't the verse say "faith without works is dead"? So faith has to have works, right? If faith does not have works within it, it is dead. If dead, then it is not true faith.
Christ is the only person who ever lived to have both faith and works. Should we claim that our faith is self-generated faith and that it is a saving faith, then we'd better have the required works to go with it too or we've failed, our faith is dead, and we're under judgement, that is, according to your interpretation. Further, those works better be perfect and fully complete.

in Jas 2:18, Christ is the "man". Christ said this to illustrate that He alone, and HIs works, are the only measurement by which anyone else's works would/could be measured, should they choose to be justified by them.

[Jas 2:18 KJV] 18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Faith is a gift and as a gift is not a work and that is the only that way faith is not a work. "His faith is counted for righteousness":
The "His faith is counted for righteousness" below is Christ's faith, not ours

I read through your comments and what comes to mind is you must be joking, how could anyone misread a text that badly. You keep saying faith is a work but even your KJV says you are wrong. Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. KJV Notice the righteousness is based upon the person believing. His faith is reckoned, counted, computed or calculated for righteousness. Faith in Christ Jesus, and his blood, is the ultimate ground of justification with God. Your argument that faith is a work falls flat. It is time for you to give that one up.

I'll post part 2 later. I will say however, that, based upon your reply, you definitely do not believe that Christ is the Savior or that you don't understand what a Savior is. If you do believe Christ is the Savior, explain what you believe that to mean?

 

[awelight]

awelight

Calvinist, R.C. Sproul, writes: “The Reformed view of predestination teaches that before a person can choose Christ his heart must be changed. He must be born again.” (Chosen By God, p.72)

Sproul adds: “A cardinal point of Reformed theology is the maxim: ‘Regeneration precedes faith.’ Our nature is so corrupt, the power of sin so great, that unless God does a supernatural work in our souls we will never choose Christ.” (Chosen By God, pp.72-73)

But not all Calvinists agree

Calvinist, Charles Spurgeon, explains: “If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. But you will tell me that I ought to preach it only to those who repent of their sins. Very well; but since true repentance of sin is the work of the Spirit, any man who has repentance is most certainly saved, because evangelical repentance never can exist in an unrenewed soul. Where there is repentance there is faith already, for they never can be separated. So, then, I am only to preach faith to those who have it. Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners.” The Warrant of Faith


One of these man contradict the bible, which do you think it is?

I give you a few clues

God stimulates the lost via the Holy Spirit who “convicts” (Joh_16:8-11), “pricks” (Act_26:14), “pierces” (Act_2:37) and “opens” hearts to receive Him. (Act_16:14). (Jesus “seeks” (Luk_19:10), “knocks” (Rev_3:20) and “draws” (Joh_12:32) with the “living and active” (Heb_4:12), supernatural “power” of the word of God (Rom_1:16), which produces “faith” in its hearers (Rom_10:17), through which we are made born again (1Pe_1:23).

You said that my understanding, would have one making a decision while they were still "dead" in trespasses and sin. And your right that is just what the bible says, so glad to see you got the right. And I even agree with you about Eph 2:1-2 “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked...” and when we look at Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. That’s really clear don’t you think. Those that were dead in there sins were able to hear the gospel message, believe it and be saved. That is the fantastic good news of the bible. We should all rejoice that God in His love has made salvation available to lost sinners. As Christ Jesus said in Mat_9:13...'I DESIRE MERCY AND NOT SACRIFICE.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

Strange why you would suggest that we shout the gospel message at a corpse, they can’t do anything. That is why Christ Jesus is proclaimed to the living that are dead in their sin.

If you hold to the WCF then your claim that man is condemned because of their association with Adam really falls flat. The WCF makes it clear that your position is that God controls all things ”God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass” do you now deny this. So God has decreed all thing, not some things. So nothing has not been decided by Him. So if that is true, and you say it is, then in what way can man overrule the decrees of God. Everything that happens good or bad has been decreed. Remember “unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass”. So that is why I say that under your calvinist system man does indeed have an excuse, God made me do it. Every though, desire & deed all were designed and made certain by your calvinist God. You cannot have it both ways although I am sure you will try.

You call it a hidden mystery as to whom God chose and why but that is just a cop out. God chose to save those that freely put their trust in Christ Jesus. That is the who and the why. The truth of salvation can easily be found in the bible once you remove your calvinist glasses.

As for 1 Cor. 10:13 If humans are causally determined to do everything we do, then “the way of escape” was not a possible option for those who sin. “The way of escape” on Calvinistic determinism, was nothing but an illusion! Only if man truly has the power to genuinely choose between alternatives, can we say that “the way of escape” was a possible option for those who sinned. This verse presupposes libertarian free will. It presupposes that the listener does not have to sin. He’s faced with A (succumb to temptation) or Non-A (the way of escape). He can choose either and is responsible for whichever one he chooses. As a determinist these options are not there for you.

I appreciate your response and the time you took. However, I keyed on one point you made: "You said that my understanding, would have one making a decision while they were still "dead" in trespasses and sin. And your right that is just what the bible says, so glad to see you got the right."

If you truly believe, that a person makes a decision out of their "Darkened" nature for Christ; therefore, having one make a decision that is contrary to their nature, a nature that is at enmity with God, I don't know what to say. This defies commonsense - let alone Scripture. I leave you to your beliefs. My attempt, in exchanges with you, was to get you to think about these things in a logical fashion. However, I have no desire to debate for the sake of debate.

 

[awelight]

Please address my question.


I will not go searching through looking for your posts.

Then you are not interested in Truth and show your unwillingness to "search", so ye can find. Personally, I would change my stand in a heart beat if one shows that it is irrefutable error.

 

[rogerg]

Part2

I included those to because you said “No one of themselves can, or would, "trust in His son" but when you look at the verses that I showed you you can see mans free will to either accept or reject Christ Jesus. But it seems that is beyond your understanding or perhaps you just want to ignore what the bible shows.

Well since we have covered, faith is not a work already I will not go there again.

Now about Adam & Eve what did you mean by how I define good and evil? And another question who were the everyone else in your “Adam and Eve, who were created in the image of God, understood what the penalty was for themselves and everyone else when they chose to violate God's command to not eat the of the tree.” Since there was no everyone else at the time. You added text starting at “Until the entrance of the law…” are you referring to when Moses received the law or what.

Faith is a work. The following verse tells us that faith is both a work and that it is God's work.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

See my part 1 post (of today) for a more detailed explanation of faith and works - that faith is definitely a work.

I said “He went to the cross {Christ Jesus} and made atonement of our sins available to all.” You again did not read and instead put in your own pre-loaded ideas into the text. Did you not see the word “available” in my comment? Your whole comment is based on an errant reading of my comment so does not warrant a reply except to say please reply to what is written not what you think was written.

I don't understand your comment, be more specific and identify where in my reply I've misunderstood you.


if, by His offering, Christ had made atonement available to "all" (as you believe), then "all" (everyone) must be forgiven because their transgressions have been paid in full. If paid in full, no one can be subject to judgement by God since God accepted Jesus's offering and was pleased with it and Him. So, it is impossible that atonement was made "available" for "all", but instead is only for those whom it had been given and He had chosen.

Look at it this way: to not have faith in Christ is a sin since we are all commanded of God to believe. So, only when the sin of not believing is forgiven (and we all start life not believing), can anyone come to a true belief in Him. Therefore, our forgiveness, our salvation, and our becoming born-again MUST be a prerequisite to, and a predecessor of , our belief.

Regarding the definition of good and evil, I meant that people can differ on what the tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents. I don't know what your understanding of it is. Mine is that its fruit represents law with the desire to achieve the law's requirements by our works, believing that it would bring us righteousness with God, but instead it only brings sin and death. When Adam and Eve ate of it, they, and all mankind were placed under and assessed by law, which before then, wasn't present.

I included those to because you said “No one of themselves can, or would, "trust in His son" but when you look at the verses that I showed you you can see mans free will to either accept or reject Christ Jesus. But it seems that is beyond your understanding or perhaps you just want to ignore what the bible shows.

I provided multiple verses to you to demonstrate that no one can come to the Father unless it is given them. Here is one again- read it carefully

[Jhn 6:65 KJV]
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

I read through your comments and what comes to mind is you must be joking, how could anyone misread a text that badly. You keep saying faith is a work but even your KJV says you are wrong. Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. KJV Notice the righteousness is based upon the person believing. His faith is reckoned, counted, computed or calculated for righteousness. Faith in Christ Jesus, and his blood, is the ultimate ground of justification with God. Your argument that faith is a work falls flat. It is time for you to give that one up.

"worketh not , but believeth on him" BECAUSE true faith is given by God to His chosen as a gift: Christ's work, not theirs.

Here it is again:

[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Having read over your posts I can see that you are in need of some theological direction. You have expressed views that are not biblical but when pointed out to you you just close your eyes. Perhaps in the future you will accept sound teaching from someone but as for now that does not seem possible for you to accept.

lol. It seems that you have chosen to ignore the rules and directions the Bible sets forth for its interpretation, such as that
no verse of prophecy is of any private interpretation and that the spiritual meaning in the verses must be found and be compared with spiritual in other verses, to come to correct understanding. The Bible is NOT to be read and analyzed the same way you would read and analyze any other book. It's gospel message will not be found unless you follow its instructions, which, to this point, it seems you either don't understand or have chosen not to follow, which is why you keep coming back to a trust in yourself instead of God.

 

[OIC1965]

In my original statement, I said:

"The fact that this spiritual life in Christ, must be worked out in temporal steps, does not nullify the Eternal reality."

By your question, I see you are still stuck in the Temporal gear. So be it. I will answer on a Temporal level - the steps worked out - from the above sentence but I must say, I thought you already knew where I stood on this.

An Elect person is born into this world physically and is mated to his eternal soul. Conception being the work of a man and a woman - the soul, being the work of God. Being born, he comes forth as a liar. Possessing a fallen nature - he is darkness and at enmity with God. At the appointed time he is regenerated by the Spirit. This alters the nature and makes alive his spirit. He hears the Gospel message and is effected by it. Drawn to Christ, he professes Him as Lord and Savior. Kept in and by the Spirit, he perseveres to the end.

Those are the basic Temporal steps, as you requested. However, this has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

To answer your direct question - From the Temporal perspective, NO. Not until Bob is regenerated.
From the eternal prospective, YES. Because God has bestowed His Grace upon Him, before the world began. As such, the person's time with a darkened nature, is not seen by God because the sins of that person and all of the Elect have already been put away.

You keep missing my basic point. That which began in Eternity and will end in Eternity. This is Eternal Security. You keep worrying about the Temporal aspects - what happens here and before what - can there be time gaps or not? There are answers to these things for sure but they don't really matter. What God purposed in Eternity, WILL take place. Therefore, God having purposed for the Elect, Salvation, it will take place and nothing can stop it, not even by or through the Elect.

Since you asked me a Temporal question, let me ask you an Eternal question. What does this verse mean:

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

No. What I said is that those elect persons who have not yet believed are yet spiritually dead, (Ephesians 2:1), therefore the non temporal aspect of election has little to do with what we were discussing, at least from my perspective.

“You, being dead in trespasses and sins…” He has made alive Ephesians 2:1 and forward.

Elect are dead before they believe. Therefore the non temporal aspect of election seems to be irrelevant to what we were discussing, imo.”

 

[OIC1965]

Okay!!!! Let us rejoice together. This is the true principle of Monergeism. The preparation of the heart for the Word.

Don't care if it conforms, don't like labels.

If we agree on this, I am content.

 

[OIC1965]

There is a sense in which I agree with your statement and there is a sense wherein I do not. This is what I am thinking here.

Yes, to have spiritual life and that abundantly, it is in Christ. But I think you are over simplifying this statement. In reality it is very complexed. All that will have spiritual life are in Christ. Jesus Christ is the Executor of His Father's Purpose but the Holy Spirit is the Agency of it. Example: The Father determined to create the Heavens and the Earth. The Son spoke the Words - Let there be light" The Holy Spirit brought about what was spoken.

Therefore, the Words of Christ are life and the Holy Spirit performs that Life. Here are some of the verses that show the Holy Spirit's agency:

Gen 1:2 And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
While the Holy Spirit is the agent of the new birth - the Words of Christ are both spiritual and life giving. The first is "Positional" - the Holy Spirit carries out what the Father has already determined. The second is "Conditional" - if we walk in the Words of Christ, we will have life abundantly. (Jn.8:12; Rom.6:4; Rom.8:1, 4; Gal.5:16,25; Col.1:10)

Mat_10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Rom_8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

2Co_3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life.

Gal_6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Rev_11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

As we see in some of these verses, the Spirit is associated with this life. These passages are all about those who are in Christ, yet we see that the Holy Spirit is the agency of this Life. Just as He was the Agent of Creation working in concert with the Son, as purposed by the Father. Literally, in everything to do with creation and Salvation, all three members of the Godhead are involved.

The important difference, lies in this fact: That the work of the Father and the Holy Spirit, point to and are for the Glory of the Son. Both operate in one accord, out of the Love of the Father for His Son.

The Holy Spirit indwells us and baptizes us into Christ, that is Life.

We were dead in trespasses and sins.

God quickened us.( made us alive)

That life is communicated through our union with the Person and Work of Christ through the Work of the Spirit.

There is no life apart from that union with Christ.

We were not in that life-giving union before Ephesians 2:1, being dead in trespasses and sins

So the pre temporal aspect of election, while true, does not address my point.

 

[OIC1965]

You're quite a dark personality that has very erratic inconstant thoughts.
John 1 tells God is Jesus. Never said anything different. As anyone reading here that is not you knows.
You defend tritheism. Not monotheism.

John 1 does not say “ God is Jesus”. That is a highly inaccurate way of reading the text. It says “ The Word existed eternally ( pretemporally/before time) as God, and was made flesh ( in time)

In the phrase the “Word was with God”, the Word (being the subject) is shown to be a distinct person from the One He was with (God). Yet the “Word was God” shows that the Word Himself is God.

We see two distinct persons being called God, (the Holy Spirit being the third, not mentioned here but in other places)

Like the Baptismal formula

 

[rayzor]

i saw this word & i was like what does this mean?
Definition of "soteriology" - Merriam-Webster



Soteriology definition is - theology dealing with salvation especially as effected by Jesus Christ.

 

[Justified]

I appreciate your response and the time you took. However, I keyed on one point you made: "You said that my understanding, would have one making a decision while they were still "dead" in trespasses and sin. And your right that is just what the bible says, so glad to see you got the right."

If you truly believe, that a person makes a decision out of their "Darkened" nature for Christ; therefore, having one make a decision that is contrary to their nature, a nature that is at enmity with God, I don't know what to say. This defies commonsense - let alone Scripture. I leave you to your beliefs. My attempt, in exchanges with you, was to get you to think about these things in a logical fashion. However, I have no desire to debate for the sake of debate.

Being that you seem to be coming at this from a calvinist point of view I can see that we will never agree as from my perspective calvinism is not biblical. You run the bible through your so called "doctrines of grace" and that is errant theology. That being said I do not see any reason to continue this interaction.

 

[Justified]

No it's by Christ's faithfulness.

Rom 3:26 does not address who, or why, someone comes to a belief in Christ and therefore can not support your position.
In other words, the identification of those who are justified is not addressed in this verse.
My point is that those who come to a true faith in Christ, gain that faith as a result of salvation -- not because salvation was caused by their faith.

"[Rom 3:26 KJV]
26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

[Eph 2:8 KJV]
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Consider what you are saying: that we are saved by our work of faith. Were that so, then we would be our own savior

In Rom 3:28 it is Christ's faith, not ours
[Rom 3:28 KJV] 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Consider that in verse 3:26, we are informed that Christ is the justifier ("His righteousness"), but, according to your interpretation of 3:28 man becomes the justifier ("a man is justified by faith"), so if Christ is the justifier as we are told in 3:28 but man is the justified by his own faith, then a contradiction exists.
Read both verses closely - it can't be the way you've interpreted them because by that they would be in conflict with each other. However, with my interpretation in that both the justifier and the faith are Christ's, both verses come into complete harmony- which harmony must always be present within the Bible.

The same response also applies to Rom 5:1



"in" is in the verse but only in one part. If God wanted to say "faith in Christ" throughout, He would have used "in" throughout - "in" is an actual Greek word. But, because "in" is present in only one place, and not in the others, the interpretation for the others MUST be that is by Christ's faith (not ours) since "in" isn't there.
Christ was perfectly faithful to the God the Father in accomplishing that which had been assigned to Him by the Father. That is the faith which is in view when "faith of Christ" is used and the faith that saves: we are saved by Christ's faithfulness, not ours - all of our works are as dirty rags to the Father, none worthy of salvation.

No, I didn't read your quotes because I don't read Calvin and so they are not pertinent to the discussion as far as I'm concerned.



Here's what Php 3:9 really says:

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Same disagreement as with Gal 2:16




No, that is not what James is saying and what you said isn't logical. Doesn't the verse say "faith without works is dead"? So faith has to have works, right? If faith does not have works within it, it is dead. If dead, then it is not true faith.
Christ is the only person who ever lived to have both faith and works. Should we claim that our faith is self-generated faith and that it is a saving faith, then we'd better have the required works to go with it too or we've failed, our faith is dead, and we're under judgement, that is, according to your interpretation. Further, those works better be perfect and fully complete.

in Jas 2:18, Christ is the "man". Christ said this to illustrate that He alone, and HIs works, are the only measurement by which anyone else's works would/could be measured, should they choose to be justified by them.

[Jas 2:18 KJV] 18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Faith is a gift and as a gift is not a work and that is the only that way faith is not a work. "His faith is counted for righteousness":
The "His faith is counted for righteousness" below is Christ's faith, not ours



I'll post part 2 later. I will say however, that, based upon your reply, you definitely do not believe that Christ is the Savior or that you don't understand what a Savior is. If you do believe Christ is the Savior, explain what you believe that to mean?

When I have pointed out to you what the bible says on a subject you respond with no don't agree. That's fine as not everybody sees things the same way. But when I give you quotes from various bible teachers even those that hold to some of the same views you have expressed you say sorry don't agree or do not care as you only read the bible. You say that you do not read other theological books just the bible. So I have to conclude that you do not have anyone that you learn from but instead just trust in your own understanding of scripture.
Since your response is always no do not agree it seems as we have reached an dead end. So I see no value in carrying on this interaction.

 

[rogerg]

No. What I said is that those elect persons who have not yet believed are yet spiritually dead, (Ephesians 2:1), therefore the non temporal aspect of election has little to do with what we were discussing, at least from my perspective.

If you don't mind me asking, I'm not sure that I understand the "not yet believed and are yet dead" part of your reply. I guess it could be viewed from several different perspectives and I'm not sure which you had in mind. In any event, to me, spiritual life is given
to the elect at this instant:

[Rom 8:2 KJV]
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

That is, when God moves (so to speak) an elect from the under law of sin and death to being under the
law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, by that, have they been granted spiritual life.

Do you understand it differently? Thx.

 

[OIC1965]

If you don't mind me asking, I'm not sure that I understand the "not yet believed and are yet dead" part of your reply. I guess it could be viewed from several different perspectives and I'm not sure which you had in mind. In any event, to me, spiritual life is given
to the elect at this instant:

[Rom 8:2 KJV]
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

That is, when God moves (so to speak) an elect from the under law of sin and death to being under the
law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, by that, have they been granted spiritual life.

Do you understand it differently? Thx.

It means that a person who is foreknown and predestined of God (elect), is dead until God raises them, even though they are foreknown and predestinated

Now my argument was that a person is not alive spiritually until they are “ in Christ”

Awe light countered with pretemporal election, saying we were always in Christ from eternity past.

My reply is that this does not answer my objection, because though they be foreknown of God and predestinated, they do not have life until God raises them in time

Ephesians 2.

 

[OIC1965]

It means that a person who is foreknown and predestined of God (elect), is dead until God raises them, even though they are foreknown and predestinated

Now my argument was that a person is not alive spiritually until they are “ in Christ”

Awe light countered with pretemporal election, saying we were always in Christ from eternity past.

My reply is that this does not answer my objection, because though they be foreknown of God and predestinated, they do not have life until God raises them in time

Ephesians 2.

We are raised to spiritual life when we are baptized by the Spirit into Christ’s death and resurrection. (Romans 6). There is no other way to life than that.

 

[rogerg]

We are raised to spiritual life when we are baptized by the Spirit into Christ’s death and resurrection. (Romans 6). There is no other way to life than that.

Okay thanks - I'll ponder that

 

[OIC1965]

Okay thanks - I'll ponder that

You quoted Romans 8:2. The verse that immediately follows tells us that the passing from the Law of sin and death to the Law of the Spirit of life is accomplished by the Work of Christ, right?

 

[rogerg]

You quoted Romans 8:2. The verse that immediately follows tells us that the passing from the Law of sin and death to the Law of the Spirit of life is accomplished by the Work of Christ, right?

Hmmm. Maybe. It probably fits what you're saying, or, off the top, to me, it could also mean that the condemning of sin had to occur first(through Christ), and then the receiving spiritual life (which the condemning of sin permitted), might be as a part of, or simultaneous to being freed from the law of sin and death, unto the the law of life(which law is also Christ). In other words, Christ put sin away for those He has chosen as the first step, and as the second step, He moves them individually at a time of His choosing, out from under the law of sin and death to Himself. It gets kind of murky (to me) and hard to distinguish where one ends and another begins, or, if everything is simultaneous and synonymous of each other.
Good luck understanding that - not too clear - sorry

[Rom 8:3 KJV] 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

 

[OIC1965]

Hmmm. Maybe. It probably fits what you're saying, or, off the top, to me, it could also mean that the condemning of sin had to occur first(through Christ), and then the receiving spiritual life (which the condemning of sin permitted), might be as a part of, or simultaneous to being freed from the law of sin and death, unto the the law of life(which law is also Christ). In other words, Christ put sin away for those He has chosen as the first step, and as the second step, He moves them individually at a time of His choosing, out from under the law of sin and death to Himself. It gets kind of murky (to me) and hard to distinguish where one ends and another begins, or, if everything is simultaneous and synonymous of each other.
Good luck understanding that - not too clear - sorry

[Rom 8:3 KJV] 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

How do you understand the phrase “ condemned sin in the flesh?”

I understand it to mean that our sins were judged at the cross. Christ took the penalty of our sins, and so the sin debt is paid.

At the cross, our sins were judged, so we will never be condemned but have passed from death to life.

This transaction is the basis of our justification

Yet justification is declared on the one who believes in Christ Jesus

And that perfect and complete justification is the basis of our being delivered from the Law’ s curse.

And it is the Law’s condemnation that is the basis for our bondage and slavery to sin

Once that condemnation is removed, the dominion of sin is broken.

All of it is wrapped up in what Christ accomplished in His death ( and resurrection)

It’s all clearly laid out in Romans 4-8

 

[OIC1965]

How do you understand the phrase “ condemned sin in the flesh?”

I understand it to mean that our sins were judged at the cross. Christ took the penalty of our sins, and so the sin debt is paid.

At the cross, our sins were judged, so we will never be condemned but have passed from death to life.

This transaction is the basis of our justification

Yet justification is declared on the one who believes in Christ Jesus

And that perfect and complete justification is the basis of our being delivered from the Law’ s curse.

And it is the Law’s condemnation that is the basis for our bondage and slavery to sin

Once that condemnation is removed, the dominion of sin is broken.

All of it is wrapped up in what Christ accomplished in His death ( and resurrection)

It’s all clearly laid out in Romans 4-8

And it is in our union with Christ and in His death and resurrection that these things are realized

 

[rogerg]

How do you understand the phrase “ condemned sin in the flesh?”

I understand it to mean that our sins were judged at the cross. Christ took the penalty of our sins, and so the sin debt is paid.

Guess the first way to answer you is with a question: when Paul said the
law of life itself had made him free from sin and death, what exactly did he mean? I myself am not entirely sure.

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.