Are we saved by faith alone or is works necessary?

[Pilgrimshope]

Scripture must harmonize with Scripture. In James 2:21, notice that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac on the altar resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete, like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22, he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

yeah it doesn’t say faith is completed by the work at all huh ?

the idea brother is we first believe what God said and then we’re going to do it faith doesn’t make no works necassary faith is when you believe the blessing God promised would come if you do what he said because you believed it .

if God spoke to you and said go out to your mailbox there’s million dollars in it and you believed what he said what would the result be ? Would you say you believed it and then never to do what he said ? Or would you believe and get up and check your mailbox even though your the mailman and didn’t put it in there ?

I’m guessing if you believed what God said you would get up and get the million and not hope for it to appear on your bank account that’s faith like Noah was told the wrath was going to flood and to veils his ark he believed and did it so faith wrought Noah’s works and he was saved by the righteousness of faith

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Had Noah “ believed “
And then said I have other more pressing issues lord and never built his ark that belief would have been in vein and dead faith and Noah would have ended up in the same position the rest were in

faith comes first from this

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭

And the fruits come after but if we reject this part

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we don’t have faith we just read a line from an epistle talking about faith. And not actually explaining what it is James is to be taken on with what Paul said about faith so we don’t think Paul was saying “ you don’t need to obey Gkd because you have faith “ we actually do , faith is what makes us move and do that so we are saved without the evidence coming forth ot can’t save us.

But I’m not sure your position is this the gospel ?

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1, 14-15‬ ‭

or are you here to explain Paul created a different one ?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

His blood saves those who call upon the name of the Lord.

yeah why acknowledge scriptire i suppose when one already has his own way worked out

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Why? Why not apply whatever you’re reading to the audience? To whom is the writer speaking to, to whom does the doctrine apply?

The entire Bible is written for you, but not all of it is written to you.

yea if someone doesn’t believe it’s not for them

 

[John146]

yea if someone doesn’t believe it’s not for them

Are you building an ark? Why not? Didn’t God command to? Have you gone to Nineveh yet? Why not? Do you obey Jesus in the following...

Matthew 10
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Are you building an ark? Why not? Didn’t God command to? Have you gone to Nineveh yet? Why not? Do you obey Jesus in the following...

Matthew 10
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

why are you so set against this ?

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

talk about kicking against the pricks I have no clue why you fear the word of Christ but it’s awefully irritating to take time to read the circles you spin to get around it here you do accept paul right ?

so where does this fit in

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:16, 19-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-7‬ ‭

but go ahead and wuote the grave verses that make this all irrelevant

 

[Justified]

Christs faith was demonstrated by his obedience unto death, even the death of the cross. His faith justifies the believer. Does his shed blood save?

"His faith justifies the believer." Did you bother to read any of my post? John 146 if you are going to respond at lest make it look like you read the post you are responding to.


Well call be surprised! I note that you did not respond to what I pointed out to you in post # 84. Why is that? Perhaps because it shows that you are wrong in your use of "of Jesus" I even used your KJV bible to show your error. What no answer?


So now you try a different tack, will you never learn? Your view is just not sustainable. You have to read into the scriptures what you want to find. Just try reading what the text says.

"Does his shed blood save?" Well now that is a good question, is it His {shed blood / death on the cross} that saves or is it when people turn to Him in faith that saves.

Well what does the bible say

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. KJV

So we see that the atonement sacrifice shed it’s blood in other words it died. The people believed God when He said that He would forgive their sins. cf Lev_16:15

So to answer your question “Does his shed blood save?” In a word NO. The shed blood of Christ Jesus does not save but it is the means of our salvation.

Paul makes this abundantly clear in:

Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

Christ is thus represented as the medium, the offering, the expiation, by which reconciliation is produced between God and man. Through faith or by means of faith. The offering will be of no avail without faith. The offering has been made; but it will not be applied, except where there is faith. Christ Jesus has made an offering which may be efficacious in putting away sin; but it produces no reconciliation, no pardon, except where it is accepted by faith.

So once again I have shown you that it is not Christ Jesus’ faithfulness that saves, it is our faith in the object of our faith Christ Jesus.

 

[Blik]

What is required of man is belief...believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. That’s our part. Christ did all the work. I have His righteousness!

If we believe Christ wouldn't that have to include what Christ says? If we let Christ take over our self, wouldn't that mean that we try to follow him in all Christ says and does. That would take us back to what Christ says about doing his will.

 

[John146]

"His faith justifies the believer." Did you bother to read any of my post? John 146 if you are going to respond at lest make it look like you read the post you are responding to.


Well call be surprised! I note that you did not respond to what I pointed out to you in post # 84. Why is that? Perhaps because it shows that you are wrong in your use of "of Jesus" I even used your KJV bible to show your error. What no answer?


So now you try a different tack, will you never learn? Your view is just not sustainable. You have to read into the scriptures what you want to find. Just try reading what the text says.

"Does his shed blood save?" Well now that is a good question, is it His {shed blood / death on the cross} that saves or is it when people turn to Him in faith that saves.

Well what does the bible say

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. KJV

So we see that the atonement sacrifice shed it’s blood in other words it died. The people believed God when He said that He would forgive their sins. cf Lev_16:15

So to answer your question “Does his shed blood save?” In a word NO. The shed blood of Christ Jesus does not save but it is the means of our salvation.

Paul makes this abundantly clear in:

Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

Christ is thus represented as the medium, the offering, the expiation, by which reconciliation is produced between God and man. Through faith or by means of faith. The offering will be of no avail without faith. The offering has been made; but it will not be applied, except where there is faith. Christ Jesus has made an offering which may be efficacious in putting away sin; but it produces no reconciliation, no pardon, except where it is accepted by faith.

So once again I have shown you that it is not Christ Jesus’ faithfulness that saves, it is our faith in the object of our faith Christ Jesus.

Not sure why you responded in such a manner. Of course I believe that salvation is through the shed blood of Jesus. His faith led him to the cross.

 

[John146]

If we believe Christ wouldn't that have to include what Christ says? If we let Christ take over our self, wouldn't that mean that we try to follow him in all Christ says and does. That would take us back to what Christ says about doing his will.

Yes, obedience is our goal but not required for salvation. We will be judged for our labor not sin. He judged our sin at the cross.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Amen and amen

Sadly people want to instill works in the equation. In the case of the op. Works of the law.

And they want us to follow them into this self righteous religion

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually there is no such thing as saving faith mentioned in the Scriptures. Faith is faith. It is the object of our faith that matters. Christ is the Saving One. Not our faith. There is no specific special type of faith that saves, but simply a specific SAVIOR.
Faith does not always result in actions/works.

Now I disagree here.

True faith comes from a complete trust in someone. If you trust that person. Your going to tend to agree with them. Which means your not going to continue to live as you did before. There will be some change.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Dead. Not non-existent. That passage in James is about believers' faith in their Christian life, not their initial faith for salvation. If in their Christian life they say they have faith but they don't have works, then their faith is dead/useless/unprofitable. Certainly no one else will profit from it. This does not mean they never believed on Christ. It's an entirely different subject.

Again I disagree.

He is talking about mere believers (even demons believe yet tremble)

these are hearers of the word only not doers. They have what James calls a dead faith. Which is in reality no faith at all.

It would be like me saying I trust my boss. Yet I never do anything he asks me to do. And always do things contrary to what he says. I claim by my mouth I have faith. But by my actions. What I claim by my mouth is not justified.

Abraham believed God. And it was accounted to him as righteousness. He proved his faith not only to himself. But other men. And to us who study his life. By the works which he did later in life. And also by the sin he commited. He also proved he is just like the rest of us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i find those r the one that can't think or can't yet ,,,or the kind that just like 2 disagree.Nobody iv talk 2 thinks 1 has 2 work for salvation only that 1 will if their around long enough.

A lot of people believe this

They claim salvation can be lost if we do not keep up works. Or if a person does not change their life to live as they think they should (usually works of the law)

they deny they teach works. But by their words they contradict themselves

 

[Evmur]

Titus 3:4-8 “But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

Does this mean that the faith they speak of is of the mind only, or does our faith have to include acting out our faith?

Scripture does not answer this question directly, but James tells us faith without works is dead and Christ tells us that being a Christian is not a matter of only how we think but includes what we do.

"Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven."(NASB) Matt. 7:21

We put actions to our faith, He says repent and we do repent, He says believe and we do believe, He says be baptized and I certainly have, this was and is my confession.

Most importantly we have received Him and He has made His dwelling in us.

We seek to do all He tells us to do.

Much of what He tells us to do is very difficult when the church is so backslidden.

 

[Evmur]

We put actions to our faith, He says repent and we do repent, He says believe and we do believe, He says be baptized and I certainly have, this was and is my confession.

Most importantly we have received Him and He has made His dwelling in us.

We seek to do all He tells us to do.

Much of what He tells us to do is very difficult when the church is so backslidden.

God not only reigns through us He also reign because of us. He governs this world by the church.

That is no small matter.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus did all the "work" on the cross. We live through His work by believing and knowing Jesus Christ is our Salvation. Jesus said "It is Finished"

His commandment is to love one another. If we believe we have to work for our Salvation, then Jesus died in vain.

I knew of one Christian that told me they heard of someone who was in need of food for their family, so she went out and brought them food. She stated that she kept her name ANONYMOUS. Well unfortunately she is no longer anonymous because she told me. 😒

What a waste of a good deed. So do you think God was really impressed by her Christian work?

Sadly its human nature to boast of our works.

Amen, We do things out of love, Not out of obligation. People make works an obligation and in turn it turns to self righteousness, and not Christ’s righteousness

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I totally agree. Our faith saves us, I've never said anything to the contrary. But our works are evidence of our faith, and our works make our faith complete. Without works, our faith is incomplete and insufficient.

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was COMPLETED by his works;"—James 2:22

Its so sad God can not know if our faith is living or dead until we first do works.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Im justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I'm glad you believe, but James said even the demons believe. Belief is only half the picture. Failure to understand that we must also bring forth fruit in keeping with repentance is to ignore half of the scripture you don't like. It's equivalent to Noah building the ark then refusing to get on.

 

[gb9]

Again I disagree.

He is talking about mere believers (even demons believe yet tremble)

these are hearers of the word only not doers. They have what James calls a dead faith. Which is in reality no faith at all.

It would be like me saying I trust my boss. Yet I never do anything he asks me to do. And always do things contrary to what he says. I claim by my mouth I have faith. But by my actions. What I claim by my mouth is not justified.

Abraham believed God. And it was accounted to him as righteousness. He proved his faith not only to himself. But other men. And to us who study his life. By the works which he did later in life. And also by the sin he commited. He also proved he is just like the rest of us.

i look at how God called Abram as a perfect example of saved by grace through faith for good works.

God called Abram. ( grace) Abram believed ( faith). Abram took his family and left his homeland. ( works)

 

[mailmandan]

I’m guessing if you believed what God said you would get up and get the million and not hope for it to appear on your bank account

Of course.

that’s faith like Noah was told the wrath was going to flood and to veils his ark he believed and did it so faith wrought Noah’s works and he was saved by the righteousness of faith

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Had Noah “ believed “
And then said I have other more pressing issues lord and never built his ark that belief would have been in vein and dead faith and Noah would have ended up in the same position the rest were in

Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith and not the origin of it. Building the ark demonstrated that Noah believed God about flooding the earth and the ark saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:17) If Noah would have refused to build the ark, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith in what God told him about flooding the earth, but of course, that was not the case.

faith comes first from this

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭

And the fruits come after but if we reject this part

Faith does come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate a lack of root. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Amen!

we don’t have faith we just read a line from an epistle talking about faith. And not actually explaining what it is James is to be taken on with what Paul said about faith so we don’t think Paul was saying “you don’t need to obey God because you have faith“ we actually do, faith is what makes us move and do that so we are saved without the evidence coming forth or can’t save us.

Obedience is not forced or legalistic for those who are truly born of God.

But I’m not sure your position is this the gospel ?

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1, 14-15‬ ‭

or are you here to explain Paul created a different one ?

The word "gospel" simply means "good news." Jesus was preaching the gospel of the kingdom to Israel. John the Baptist preached the gospel of the kingdom, which was, "..Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 3:2) Before the cross, the content of the gospel that Paul later taught and came to him through a revelation of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12) was still a mystery.

Jesus Christ sent the twelve to preach only to Israel. Matthew 10:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ The disciples were specifically told to go only to the people of Israel, and they were not yet preaching anything about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

In 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, we see that the gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) In this age, there is a distinct element to the content of the gospel which is called "the mystery of the gospel" (see Ephesians 6:19 and compare with Colossians 1:26-27; 4:3). This new revelation is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise (Ephesians 3:6). Such equality, Jew and Gentile united together in one body was previously unknown. The distinct message of the church is that Jew and Gentile alike may believe the gospel and be united together into ONE BODY. (Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 12:13)

Ephesians 3:1 - For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ..