How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,020
1,268
113
It does not look anything like what is being presented at your links, which I suspect are later editions from that of my hard copy (1871).

Well, just so you know, in no way does Liddell and Scott believe apostasia means to physically depart. According to Liddell and Scott Greek, the word "apostasia" in 2Th 2:3 means, "revolt" especially "in religious sense, rebellion against God".

Trying to suggest they think it means any form of a physical departing or rapture greatly misrepresents their position on the matter.
 
Aug 20, 2021
1,863
310
83
ἀφίστημι aphístēmi, af-is'-tay-mee; from G575 and G2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:—depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.ἀπόστολος apóstolos, ap-os'-tol-os; from G649; a delegate; specially, an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ ("apostle") (with miraculous powers):—apostle, messenger, he that is sent.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,113
113
Let's look at that.
[...]
"that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [departure of the church] first." Still sound good?
[the rest of your post is butchering the passage = ) ]


In verse 3a, the words "that day" refer back to the TIME PERIOD talked about IN VERSE 2--per the FALSE CLAIM that it "is ALREADY HERE [perfect indicative]" (the EARTHLY-located time period WE call "the Trib" or the "7 year period" [tho "the DOTL" also goes on to include the entire MK age as well--but that's beside the point, here, as that fact does not impact what this text speaks of...]



"3 that day [the DOTL TIME-PERIOD (7-yr aspect) commonly called the TRIB, from VERSE 2] shall not be present, if not shall have come THE Departure FIRST [Paul's Subject FROM VERSE 1--'OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM'--which "Rapture / SNATCH" is the means by which we GET THERE]..."



[this SEQUENCE is repeated 3x in this passage... and agrees with the SAME SEQUENCE that 1Th4 thru 5 ALSO shows, not to mention Rev...]
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,020
1,268
113
Here's a LINK to it:

https://archive.org/details/lexiconabridgedf00liddrich/page/92/mode/2up


Look at the RIGHT HAND page (pg 93), far RIGHT COLUMN... just about halfway down the page, under "apostasis"... you will DEFINITELY SEE the words I posted, listed under #2, there

That's not even right word! Sheesh, the word is apostasia not apostasis. Just because one is a later form of other does not mean it's ok to switch definitions. That's called definition fallacy. Newer versions of this book makes this even clearer. All you have been doing is misunderstanding the book you have and misrepresenting what information is provided to spin it into looking like it might support this word meaning a rapture when it does not. That's very bad and is very misleading. You need to be confronted every time you post your distorted version of Liddel's definition of these two words.

I'll circle correct word from page for those reading:


Apostasy Liddel.png
 
Aug 20, 2021
1,863
310
83
That's not even right word! Sheesh, the word is apostasia not apostasis. Just because one is a later form of other does not mean it's ok to switch definitions. That's called definition fallacy. Newer versions of this book makes this even clearer. All you have been doing is misunderstanding the book you have and misrepresenting what information is provided to spin it into looking like it might support this word meaning a rapture when it does not. That's very bad and is very misleading. You need to be confronted every time you post your distorted version of Liddel's definition of these two words.

I'll circle correct word from page for those reading:


View attachment 230876
Like run & running r same word one is present tense & possible future tense.Or r they way diff,,,????
 
Aug 20, 2021
1,863
310
83

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,113
113
Like run & running r same word one is present tense & possible future tense.Or r they way diff,,,????
"apostasia" - "LATER FORM FOR apostasis"

... that just means they are the same word, one being an older version of the word than the other. That's it.

The listings provided under each, are just showing how they are used (in writings of those eras) in each case (whether the older version of the word, or the "later form for" the same word).



Kinda like saying, back then they used the word "PREVENT" (1Th4:15) but today that same word is "PRECEDE" (SAME WORD)
 
Aug 20, 2021
1,863
310
83
"apostasia" - "LATER FORM FOR apostasis"

... that just means they are the same word, one being an older version of the word than the other. That's it.

The listings provided under each, are just showing how they are used (in writings of those eras) in each case (whether the older version of the word, or the "later form for" the same word).
k thanks..:)
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,020
1,268
113
Like run & running r same word one is present tense & possible future tense.Or r they way diff,,,????
More like running vs. jogging. Running is an older word that can have many different meanings while jogging is a newer word and has a more specific meaning.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,020
1,268
113
"apostasia" - "LATER FORM FOR apostasis"

... that just means they are the same word, one being an older version of the word than the other. That's it.
No, they are not the same word. While they share some similar definitions, apostasia does not carry all the same definitions that apostasis has. You can see that just by comparing their definitions. apostasia does not mean any form of a physical departure like apostasis might mean.


Let's look closer at apostasis:

http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/lsj/#eid=14160&context=lsj

ἀπό-στᾰσις, εως, ἡ, (ἀφίστημι) causing to revolt, συμμάχων Th.1.122; Ἰώνων ἀπὸ τῆς Λακεδαιμονίων συμμαχίας Arist.Ath.23.4. B. (ἀφίσταμαι) emanation, εἰδώλων -σεις Epicur.Fr.320. 2. slackness, of bandages, Gal.18(2).806. 3. defection, revolt, ἀπό τινος Hdt.3.128; τὴν Κυπρίων ἀ. πρῆξαι Id.5.113; τὴν Αἰγύπτου ἀ. παρασκευάζεσθαι Id.7.4; ἀ. ἐκ τῆς ξυμμαχίας Th.5.81; ἀ. πρός τινα Id.1.75; διπλῆν ἀ. ἀποστήσεσθαι Id.3.13; ἀ. τῶν Ἀθηναίων, for ἀπὸ τ. Ἀ., Id.8.5; but τὰς Μεσσηνίων ἀ. Pl.Lg.777c. 4. departure from, βίου E.Hipp. 277; separation of effect from cause, Procl.Inst.35; giving up, cession, ἀ. τῶν κτημάτων D.19.146; desisting from, disuse of, φάσεως S.E.P.1.192; τῶν ἀπροαιρέτων Arr.Epict.4.4.39. 5. distance, ἁ ἀφ’ ἡμῶν ἀ. Archyt.1; ἀφεστάναι τῇ αὐτῇ ἀ. ᾗπερ . . Pl.Phd.111b; ἀπόστασιν ὅσην ἀφεστηκὼς γίγνεται Id.R.587d, cf.546b; ἐκ μικρᾶς ἀ. Arist.Aud.800b7; τῇ ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς ἀ. Id.HA503a21; ἐκ τῶν ἀ. according to their distances, Id.Cael.290b22; of time, κατὰ τὴν πρὸς τὸ νῦν ἀ. Id.Ph.223a5; ἐξ ἀποστάσεως at a certain distance, Plb.3.114.3; ἐν ἀποστάσει Id.3.113.4, Phld.Herc.19.25; κατ’ ἀποστάσεις Hanno Peripl.13. 6. Rhet., employment of detached phrases, Hermog.Id.1.10, Aristid.Rh.1p.462S., Philostr.VS1.9.1 (pl.), Ep.73. 7. lapse, declension, Plot. 1.8.7,5.1.1. II. place where something is put away, repository, storehouse, Str.17.1.9, Philippid.14, Heraclid.Pol.72. III. Medic., suppurative inflammation, throwing off the peccant humours left by fever, etc., Hp.Epid.3.4 (pl.), Aret.SD1.9, Aristid.Or.47(23).68. 2. of diseases, transition from one to another, Hp.Epid.1.6; στραγγουριώδης ἀ. ib.3.1ά. 3. lesion of continuity, Gal.18(2).820. 4. degree of heat, cold, etc., Id.11.561, al.




I don't see that apostasis even appears at all in the bible. It's used in various Greek writings. This whole "departure from" that you are forcing into the definition of a different Greek word is not even used in the bible and isn't part of the definition of apostasia.




Kinda like saying, back then they used the word "PREVENT" (1Th4:15) but today that same word is "PRECEDE" (SAME WORD)
Those are two different words with a similar meaning, not same word as you claim.
 
Aug 20, 2021
1,863
310
83
FWIIW - I believe the original [good] manuscripts for the N.T. were the Koine Greek Textus Receptus.

In other words, it was originally written in Greek.

Consider the scope of this verse:

Revelation 1:

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Just/Only Israel?

Kinda doubt it...
Zechariah 12:10 Also = Rev 1:7 [No its suppose to the Ben Asher text..The Masorectic text.With some exception like those from the book of danel
 
Aug 20, 2021
1,863
310
83
No, they are not the same word. While they share some similar definitions, apostasia does not carry all the same definitions that apostasis has. You can see that just by comparing their definitions. apostasia does not mean any form of a physical departure like apostasis might mean.


Let's look closer at apostasis:

http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/lsj/#eid=14160&context=lsj

ἀπό-στᾰσις, εως, ἡ, (ἀφίστημι) causing to revolt, συμμάχων Th.1.122; Ἰώνων ἀπὸ τῆς Λακεδαιμονίων συμμαχίας Arist.Ath.23.4. B. (ἀφίσταμαι) emanation, εἰδώλων -σεις Epicur.Fr.320. 2. slackness, of bandages, Gal.18(2).806. 3. defection, revolt, ἀπό τινος Hdt.3.128; τὴν Κυπρίων ἀ. πρῆξαι Id.5.113; τὴν Αἰγύπτου ἀ. παρασκευάζεσθαι Id.7.4; ἀ. ἐκ τῆς ξυμμαχίας Th.5.81; ἀ. πρός τινα Id.1.75; διπλῆν ἀ. ἀποστήσεσθαι Id.3.13; ἀ. τῶν Ἀθηναίων, for ἀπὸ τ. Ἀ., Id.8.5; but τὰς Μεσσηνίων ἀ. Pl.Lg.777c. 4. departure from, βίου E.Hipp. 277; separation of effect from cause, Procl.Inst.35; giving up, cession, ἀ. τῶν κτημάτων D.19.146; desisting from, disuse of, φάσεως S.E.P.1.192; τῶν ἀπροαιρέτων Arr.Epict.4.4.39. 5. distance, ἁ ἀφ’ ἡμῶν ἀ. Archyt.1; ἀφεστάναι τῇ αὐτῇ ἀ. ᾗπερ . . Pl.Phd.111b; ἀπόστασιν ὅσην ἀφεστηκὼς γίγνεται Id.R.587d, cf.546b; ἐκ μικρᾶς ἀ. Arist.Aud.800b7; τῇ ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς ἀ. Id.HA503a21; ἐκ τῶν ἀ. according to their distances, Id.Cael.290b22; of time, κατὰ τὴν πρὸς τὸ νῦν ἀ. Id.Ph.223a5; ἐξ ἀποστάσεως at a certain distance, Plb.3.114.3; ἐν ἀποστάσει Id.3.113.4, Phld.Herc.19.25; κατ’ ἀποστάσεις Hanno Peripl.13. 6. Rhet., employment of detached phrases, Hermog.Id.1.10, Aristid.Rh.1p.462S., Philostr.VS1.9.1 (pl.), Ep.73. 7. lapse, declension, Plot. 1.8.7,5.1.1. II. place where something is put away, repository, storehouse, Str.17.1.9, Philippid.14, Heraclid.Pol.72. III. Medic., suppurative inflammation, throwing off the peccant humours left by fever, etc., Hp.Epid.3.4 (pl.), Aret.SD1.9, Aristid.Or.47(23).68. 2. of diseases, transition from one to another, Hp.Epid.1.6; στραγγουριώδης ἀ. ib.3.1ά. 3. lesion of continuity, Gal.18(2).820. 4. degree of heat, cold, etc., Id.11.561, a



Those are two different words with a similar meaning, not same word as you claim.
well lets c [Sigms alpha sigma] not in the [text-us Receptus thing] only like [Lambda omecron] type ending.
 
Aug 20, 2021
1,863
310
83
"apostasia" - "LATER FORM FOR apostasis"

... that just means they are the same word, one being an older version of the word than the other. That's it.

The listings provided under each, are just showing how they are used (in writings of those eras) in each case (whether the older version of the word, or the "later form for" the same word).



Kinda like saying, back then they used the word "PREVENT" (1Th4:15) but today that same word is "PRECEDE" (SAME WORD)
yea i ca see it [water mark] but that is not in the [textul Recetus] 1 from what i can c..the um um [sis] suffixes
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,113
113
Those are two different words with a similar meaning, not same word as you claim.
Merriam-Webster -

prevent
verb

pre·vent | \ pri-ˈvent \
prevented; preventing; prevents

Definition of prevent

transitive verb
1: to keep from happening or existingsteps to prevent war
2: to hold or keep back : HINDER, STOP —often used with from
3: to deprive of power or hope of acting or succeeding

4archaic
a: to be in readiness for (something, such as an occasion)
b: to meet or satisfy in advance
c: to act ahead of
d: to go or arrive before

[...]
First Known Use of prevent
15th century, in the meaning defined at sense 4c

History and Etymology for prevent
Middle English, to anticipate, from Latin praeventus, past participle of praevenire to come before, anticipate, forestall, from prae- + venire to come — more at COME

-- https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prevent

[end quoting from Merriam-Webster]


____________


What I said about this "prevent" word, as found in 1Th4:15, is that its DEFINITION is IDENTICAL to what we NOW say with the word "precede"--that is its MEANING (that's what they MEANT by its use in this verse in the 1600s when the kjv was written... archaic[!]... and THAT is pretty much my POINT about the other word... )

"Apostasia" simply means (at its most basic meaning) "departure," but WHAT KIND of departure is ascertained by the context where is it used, whether "a departure FROM MOSES" or "a departure FROM SOME FAITH ISSUE" or "a departure FROM SOME POLITICAL ISSUE" or the "departing OF A BOAT FROM A DOCK" or the "departing OF A FEVER" (etc etc...)

It is eisegesis to INJECT the phrase "FROM THE FAITH" into this 2Th2:3 context. Rather, we should allow the CONTEXT to INFORM US of just "WHAT KIND" of departure is intended here (and especially noting the FUNCTION of the definite article "the"... which is NOT used with this same word in Acts 21:21... Why is it HERE in v.3? What purpose does it serve, its function, and what does that tell us about what the text is conveying?)
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,020
1,268
113
"Apostasia" simply means (at its most basic meaning) "departure," but WHAT KIND of departure is ascertained by the context where is it used, whether "a departure FROM MOSES" or "a departure FROM SOME FAITH ISSUE" or "a departure FROM SOME POLITICAL ISSUE" or the "departing OF A BOAT FROM A DOCK" or the "departing OF A FEVER" (etc etc...)
No, the word does not have the meaning of a physical departure.

It is eisegesis to INJECT the phrase "FROM THE FAITH" into this 2Th2:3 context.
Also incorrect. That EXACTLY what kind of "falling away" that the word means.

Listen to Liddel on this:


A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
4,635
1,041
113
77
This threads title is misleading. The Pre Trib Rapture is popular in some Churches/Denominations. All those who adhere to the Nicene Creed believe in Christs second coming.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
No, pretrtib is the most unsound, with zero biblical evidence. Only post-trib is found in the bible, two different places:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture)

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.


A rapture before the second coming and before the resurrection is scripturally impossible and the second coming cannot happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat 24:29-30.
No, Post trib is the least

We are told when the “catching up“ occures, there will be no signs, It will happen as a thief unexpectedly, It can happen at any time, it is imminent.

Post trib when Christ actually returns to earth there are many signs, We can pretty much KNOW when it will happen (the abomination of desolation is the key marker) and there are many signs, Everyone who is a child of God will not only be looking for this day, They will be praying for it. And they will KNOW when it will happen.

We also have saved, already judged, and given their rewards people in the throne room, Who claim they were purchased by the blood. (If the rapture had not happened yet. These people would not be here)

we also have the bema seat judgment of Christ which must occur BEFORE these people are given their rewards of gold silver precious stones, or wood hay and straw. As well as their robes and many crowns.If post trib is when this happens. There is no enough time to rapture everyone, Put everyone through this bema seat judgment, Reward them, and prepair them to return to earth with Christ.

I am sorry my friend. But of all the views. Post trib is the most unbelievable and impossible position in my view.
 
Aug 20, 2021
1,863
310
83
No, Post trib is the least

We are told when the “catching up“ occures, there will be no signs, It will happen as a thief unexpectedly, It can happen at any time, it is imminent.

Post trib when Christ actually returns to earth there are many signs, We can pretty much KNOW when it will happen (the abomination of desolation is the key marker) and there are many signs, Everyone who is a child of God will not only be looking for this day, They will be praying for it. And they will KNOW when it will happen.

We also have saved, already judged, and given their rewards people in the throne room, Who claim they were purchased by the blood. (If the rapture had not happened yet. These people would not be here)

we also have the bema seat judgment of Christ which must occur BEFORE these people are given their rewards of gold silver precious stones, or wood hay and straw. As well as their robes and many crowns.If post trib is when this happens. There is no enough time to rapture everyone, Put everyone through this bema seat judgment, Reward them, and prepair them to return to earth with Christ.

I am sorry my friend. But of all the views. Post trib is the most unbelievable and impossible position in my view.
Deu 4:30
When thou art in tribulation, and all these things happen, in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice...He will???????
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,113
113
The 'falling away' is not the Rapture my friend.
It is a 'Departure' from the truth.
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thess 2: 10-12


Here ^ , you are simply conflating two distinct things:

1) ONE THING that must come *FIRST* (BEFORE it can then be TRUTHFULLY SAID "that the DOTL IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]");

[and]

2) what takes place once "the DOTL" has ARRIVED (with its "man of sin") which is WHEN "God SHALL SEND TO THEM great delusion, IN ORDER THAT THEY should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" (and the "THEM / THEY" of these verses is the SAME "THEM" that chpt 1:8 referred to "In flaming fire INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON THEM that know not God and...," speaking of NON-BELIEVERS / the UNSAVED / who are NOT SAINTS / who are PERISHING...)



Notice the following words in vv.9,11 (AFTER the DOTL has ARRIVED, with its "man of sin" at the START of the 7 Trib yrs--sometime FOLLOWING its and his ARRIVAL then the following comes into play...):

9 whose coming [/ ARRIVAL / presence / advent / parousia] is according to the working [G1753] of Satan, in every power, and in signs, and in wonders of falsehood [G5579], 10 and in every deception of wickedness unto those perishing, in return for which they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved. 11 And because of this, God will send to them a working [G1753] of delusion, for them to believe what is false [the false - G5579], 12 in order that all those...




But v.3 is telling of something DISTINCT FROM THAT ^ which must come *FIRST* BEFORE it can THEREAFTER be TRUE [a true claim] "that the DOTL IS PRESENT"...

...ONE THING must take place *FIRST* (BEFORE) before it can be truthfully claimed that "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (v.2) and that ONE THING said to be *FIRST* (per the text) is: "THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*"...

--one of the FUNCTIONS of the definite article, where this word does not ordinarily require a definite article, is to POINT BACK to something PREVIOUSLY mentioned in the text, not something FURTHER DOWN in the text... not forward to something that takes place once "the DOTL" is indeed IN PLAY (with its "man of sin" IN HIS TIME). So, no.

And the passage you brought forth for consideration is referring NOT TO BELIEVERS / SAINTS / the SAVED / Christians / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY / etc... supposedly [at least, in your mind and your suggestion] "falling away" / apostasizing... NO!

--The text in vv.9-12 TELL US *WHO* God SHALL SEND TO THEM great delusion, THAT THEY should believe THE LIE / THE FALSE / THE PSEUDEI ...(that is, IN / WITHIN / DURING the 7 Trib yrs--whereas the OTHER thing--"THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*"--takes place BEFORE it COMMENCES / BEFORE "the man of sin" even ARRIVES!)

You're simply CONFLATING two completely distinct items, here, incorrectly equating them. But many people do... you're not alone.