predestination vs freewill

[OIC1965]

I will attempt to go further into the subject of Baptism in the Spirit.

First we must establish, that Baptism in the Spirit, is a Baptism who's Executor is Jesus Christ. He is the one that Baptized believers into His Corporate Body with the agency of the Holy Spirit.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire:

In one sense, Christ baptized the local assembly, (Acts 1:5), which is Corporate and in the other, the Universal Assembly, which is also Corporate, (1 Cor. 12:13). No where in the Book of Acts is an individual Baptized in the Spirit. It is always done upon a Corporate assembly.

We both know, that being Born of the Spirit is Individual and a Sovereign work of Grace upon the Recipient. It is immediate and irresistible. Now we need to distinguish how the two - Born of the Spirit and Baptized in the Spirit - are different.

I will not belabor the points of being born of the Spirit, we are both well versed in the subject but will point out one important contrast. This contrast is found in the prepositions used. One is born of - ἐκ (out of) - the Spirit but one is baptized in - ἓν (Locative of Sphere) - the Spirit. Therefore, the New Birth comes directly out of or out from the Holy Spirit. Baptism in the Spirit, refers to one being in the "sphere" of the Holy Spirit. Said in other ways - being associated with the things of the Spirit and being in the influence of the Spirit.

Remember, The believers in Israel, during Christ's earthly ministry were being kept by the Lord Himself. (John 17:12). Their association was with Christ. He was their direct teacher and influencer. But when the Comforter came at Pentecost - the Holy Spirit - He took over as the keeper, teacher and influencer, until Christ returns. With Christ gone, the believers are now associated with the Spirit and the things of the Spirit. We are in the sphere of the Spirit and the Spirit directs our attention to our hope. A hope not yet seen. The hope that is in Jesus Christ. It is through the Scriptures and the Spirit's teachings that one witnesses for the cause of Jesus Christ. The world does not see our association with the Spirit because it is inward; but they may see our association with Christ because of our witness.

To prove and further explain the distinction, we need to go further back into the First Corinthian epistle.

Paul's lengthy argument, actually starts back in chapter 10. His emphasis is "union" with that which one does and with that which one observers. Either one, is associated with the Spirit, or Idolatry. Therefore, one walks in the Spirit or walks after this world. At the beginning of chapter 10, Paul begins with the association of National Israel. We are told, that all of Israel was baptized under the cloud and when they walked through the parted sea. This was a baptism unto Moses. This Baptism was also Corporate, as Israel was one large assembly. In other words, they were associated with Moses. This included both believers and unbelievers. While Moses was a "type" of Christ, he certainly was not Christ. Most of Israel was not following after the Lord but rather, after Moses.

Paul then pulls from this concept in chapter 12 - as he begins discussing spiritual gifts. The emphasis is on how these gifts are determined and to whom. There is much contention and jealousy over these gifts in Corinth because the Corinthians do not see the full purpose of these gifts. Paul argues for an united understanding of Christ's Body. Every believer that makes up the Universal Assembly, which Christ is building, are members of that Body. Every believer, has been given gifts by the Spirit, so as to place us for our intended purpose within the Body. In the local aspect of the assembly and in the Universal aspect of the assembly. Therefore, when the Universal aspect of the Body is complete, then all of it's members will also be present within the Body and equipped to exercise their particular role.

Paul then associates this union, to being baptized in the Spirit. He directs them to recent past history, when the Jewish believers and Gentile believers were baptized. This baptism, associates believers with the intended gifts and purpose of the Spirit. Just as "water" baptism associates believers with Christ's death and resurrection. Likewise, the cloud and sea, associated Israel with Moses. These gifts and member placement are predetermined.

Today, this association with the one Spirit, begins at the New Birth. The predetermined gifts and member placement are applied. We become associated with the work of the Spirit in our lives. We are made to drink from this one Spirit. These gifts become active as we progress through our conversion experience. The gifts not only become active in our conversion but mature as we mature in Christ. It is vitally important, that we notice the Greek word - ἐποτίσθημεν - translated: "made to drink" or "given to drink". This phrase, has an irresistible sound to it and should make us think of the New Birth. This association with the Spirit, was alluded too in this verse and helps define it's meaning.

John 7:37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink.

Christ was referring to the work of the Holy Spirit, who magnifies the work of Christ in the mind of the believer. We know that because our Lord said: "..If any man thirst...". There is no thirsting, if one has not experienced the Birth of the Spirit, (Regeneration). That Birth causes one to thirst, (Conversion), and his drink is from the one Spirit. That drink leads one to Jesus Christ and will continually magnify the Person and Work of Jesus Christ.

a. I agree with your first point.

b. Re your Second pointThe baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 and in other places in Acts was both corporate and individual.

c. I agree with the distinction of being born of the Spirit and baptized in the Spirit. I did not mean they are the same thing. I meant that they are two ASPECTS of the same event.

In my view, conversion of an individual is one event with numerous aspects that, regeneration, faith, justification, baptism into Christ’s death and body, initial sanctification, sealing, are all part of a conversion experience. I do not think you experience one without experiencing the others. In other words, a person that is regenerated is also justified, and a person that is justified has also already been baptized into Christ’s death.

d. Every aspect of our salvation is connected with our real union with Christ. And i am not speaking of pretemporal union, for even though we were elect and foreknown in eternity past, we were yet dead in our sins in time until we were called.

e. So God grants us the gift of faith, we believe, we are justified, baptized into Christ’s death, Spiritually raised to new life, and set apart by Grace.

F. I am in agreement with the paragraph that begins with “ Today this association with one Spirit…”.

G. I am in full agreement with the last paragraph.

 

[awelight]

I went to the text. Can you tell me what verse the second word is in? I only see logizomai.

The root of both is logizomai but there were two variants used. 1) ἐλογίσθη and 2) λογισθῆναι. No substantial difference in meaning, just in the tense and voice. However, in studying it out, I think the use of the word "Imputed" is a poor choice. I agree with the ASB, ASV and RS translators, that "Reckoned" is the better word. As in reckoning ones belief or action to be righteous. To consider the ones beliefs as righteous. Or to come to a logical conclusion that the act was out of righteousness.

 

[awelight]

So that is why I said we are placed/baptized into Christ’s body in time

a. Drink of one Spirit, baptized into Christ’s body are synonomous.

b. We drink of the Spirit in time

c. Therefore we are baptized placed into the Body in time.

I think we may have been saying the same thing in different ways. My mind may have had a preconceived notion of what you were saying because of it being biased on arguments with the Charismatics. They believe the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is something that comes later in time. You must be right with God and pray for it. As you probably know, the speaking in tongues and being Baptized in the Spirit are concurrent events, according to them.

 

[OIC1965]

The root of both is logizomai but there were two variants used. 1) ἐλογίσθη and 2) λογισθῆναι. No substantial difference in meaning, just in the tense and voice. However, in studying it out, I think the use of the word "Imputed" is a poor choice. I agree with the ASB, ASV and RS translators, that "Reckoned" is the better word. As in reckoning ones belief or action to be righteous. To consider the ones beliefs as righteous. Or to come to a logical conclusion that the act was out of righteousness.

I prefer “ credited” as in a balance being added that came from someone else, ( ie the righteousness that comes from Christ).

In the OT, sins were placed on “ forebearance” until Christ came to pay the debt for all of God’s people.

 

[OIC1965]

I think we may have been saying the same thing in different ways. My mind may have had a preconceived notion of what you were saying because of it being biased on arguments with the Charismatics. They believe the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is something that comes later in time. You must be right with God and pray for it. As you probably know, the speaking in tongues and being Baptized in the Spirit are concurrent events, according to them.

I do not believe in the charismatic view of Spirit baptism. My view is much closer to the conservative Baptist view. We pretty much agree. I may have been unclear, or we may define some words slightly differently, but I think we believe the same thing.

 

[OIC1965]

The root of both is logizomai but there were two variants used. 1) ἐλογίσθη and 2) λογισθῆναι. No substantial difference in meaning, just in the tense and voice. However, in studying it out, I think the use of the word "Imputed" is a poor choice. I agree with the ASB, ASV and RS translators, that "Reckoned" is the better word. As in reckoning ones belief or action to be righteous. To consider the ones beliefs as righteous. Or to come to a logical conclusion that the act was out of righteousness.

I pretty much have the same view of justification and imputation as this article.

https://www.ligonier.org/posts/doctrine-imputation-ligonier-statement-christology

 

[awelight]

I pretty much have the same view of justification and imputation as this article.

https://www.ligonier.org/posts/doctrine-imputation-ligonier-statement-christology

I too often read the works coming out of the Ligonier Ministries. As to that article, I loved this paragraph:

"There is also a second imputation. Christ's righteousness is imputed to us. He not only takes our debit, but we also get His credit. Christ paid the penalty we could never satisfy, but He also kept the law perfectly, which we can't do either. Consequently, God credits to us His righteousness. We stand before God clothed in Christ's righteousness. We can actually say that we are saved by works—not at all by our works, but instead by Christ's works, His perfect obedience, on our behalf. One theologian said that two of the most beautiful words in the Bible are for us. Jesus lived and died—and rose again—for us. All of His work was done on our behalf."

This is why I maintain, that the Elect's Justification, is out of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. He is the Person and the Worker of our Justification. We come to know of our Justification before God, through God given Faith.

There are those however, that teach that our Justification before God is "BY" our faith. This would make the preposition "BY", the means of Justification. Said in another way: It is because of our faith we are Justified. This teaching puts the Cart before the Horse. It is one of the arguments, the Wesley/Arminian uses to try to circumnavigate the fact that Salvation is all of God. They believe they can lay hold of this imputation by the shear force of their will. Just believe on Christ. However, we know it's not quite that simple. Christ has already worked out all of the Elect' Justification (the horse), and we acquire this imputed work when we are Born of the Spirit. (the cart). Order is then maintained - the Elect are following their Savior.

Thanks for the article.

 

[awelight]

I pretty much have the same view of justification and imputation as this article.

https://www.ligonier.org/posts/doctrine-imputation-ligonier-statement-christology

Additionally, I wanted to express this thought.

Sadly, on these electronic chats, we never really get to know the people we chat with. We can not visualize or hear the love of Christ and His Truth, through body language and/or pitch of the voice. We can only ascertain their true position in Christ by discussing Doctrine.

Those of us, who hold to the 5 Golden chains of Salvation, (Rom.8:28-30), are so frequently attacked by others, that it has made many true believers, hard and less loving. Not less loving towards the Lord but towards each other. We enter every chat, waiting and expecting to be attacked. We are suspicious of everyone we engage in conversation.

Jesus Christ wanted us to Love the Brethren with the same Love He had for His own. These constant attacks, by the unbelieving world, causes the believers skin to become tough and his/her position to become rigid. Before you know it, we have left our first love, just like the assembly in Ephesus and begin to act like we have arrived. I know personally, I have to fight against both daily.

In this chat forum, I did not call myself Chris, my real name but called myself "awelight". A reminder to myself, that I am just "A Wee Light", for the greater Light, Jesus Christ our Lord. The Scottish word: "wee", is how much knowledge, I believe myself to have.

You have stood for many of the Great Truth's of Scripture. We are in agreement upon the Doctrine of Soteriology, which includes Election, Predestination, Effectual Calling, Justification, Glorification and probably many more Doctrines as well. We may not always agree with every little Dot and Tittle but we work through those things, together. As such I rejoice in calling you Brother. May God Bless and keep you.

 

[awelight]

aweligh, I think the following verses unconditionally demonstrates that God's people are no longer of the earthly Israel but are now the elect, the saved. It is not possible that earthly Israel and the elect/saved could at the same time be the people of God - it must be that it is one or the other.
The Jews in time past , and even now, were/are a people designated as being Israel. On the other hand, the elect/saved in time past were not a people. Now however, God has removed Israel from their special role/place/relationship with Him, and instead has given it to the elect/saved and made them both a people, and His people: the new Jerusalem. By this replacement (and I don't mean by the corporate church but the eternal spiritual church), we can know that Israel's special place with God has ended. Please read vs 10 following carefully - thx






Yes, I agree with you that this it is getting unwieldy. So, when, and if, new thoughts or perceptions arise we
can discuss them individually point by point - should you desire to do so.

Roger, In reviewing your last post on the subject of the Assembly and Israel, I think what you stated here is your major stumbling block: "It is not possible that earthly Israel and the elect/saved could at the same time be the people of God - it must be that it is one or the other."

I say this with as much love as I can - If you come into the study of Eschatology, with the concept that Israel and the Assembly cannot coexist, then you have doomed any hope to seeing what Scripture is teaching. You place a blinder upon your understanding from the beginning.

Why do you attempt to restrain what God is capable of? (Rom. 11:33-35). As members of the Universal Assembly, it is not our concern what God is or will be doing with Israel. However, having said that, if God does not restore Israel, then the Assembly which Christ is building, has NO Tree to be grafted into. You seem, some how, to be linking the idea of National Israel to the subject of Salvation. Salvation is the same for all. Those elected out of Israel in the OT days and those elected as a remnant for the future Kingdom, (Rom. 9:27;11:5, 25-27), are all saved the same way. The same exact way, that the Elect that make up the Assembly are saved. The Distinction, is not about how Salvation works but the timing of both. Israel at this moment, is temporarily set aside while the Gentiles are being brought in, (Rom. 11:25). Salvation then returns to the elect Jews, who will constitute physical Israel - Only after the Assembly is complete. Therefore, God is not dealing with both at the same time, as you suggested. Our future Promises, are directly linked, to the restoration of Israel.

If God does not fulfill His promises to Israel, then there will be no earthly Kingdom - a Kingdom that all believers have waited for. The Kingdom of God, The Kingdom of Heaven, find there culmination upon a restored physical earth, with a restored physical Israel, ruled over by a physical King - Jesus Christ. If this were not true - then what did the Lord mean when He said these things in the Beatitude:

Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (First He mentions the Heavenly Kingdom - present tense).
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. (But it is tied to the earth, in the future).

Again, the Jewish believers had one paramount thing on their mind - the fulfillment of this promise.

Acts_1:6 They therefore, when they were come together, asked him, saying, Lord, dost thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?

I mentioned this passage before but you glazed over it and gave no response, The Lord had ample opportunity to dismiss the idea of a Coming Kingdom and Israel's restoration but He did not. Instead He said:

Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know times or seasons, which the Father hath set within His own authority.

Clearly, the Lord said nothing to dissuade them of the idea of a restored Kingdom to Israel but instead, said the times of it's restoration was none of their concern. However, the Father has designated a time. This reminds us of what the Lord said about the Great Tribulation days in Matthew 24:36. If there was to be no restoration of the Kingdom to Israel, then why would the Lord keep silent and not tell His own? If these verses, create a problem for ones ability to maintain a harmonious relationship throughout Scripture, then that one needs to rethink their stand on Eschatology.

I don't want our conversation to get to spread out, so I will give just a few more verses and call it quits.

The following verse of Prophecy, has already seen a partial fulfillment:

Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

While the completion of this Prophecy is still future, it was partly fulfilled in 1948. On may 14, 1948 - Israel declared itself a Nation. Before this time, Jews had no homeland and had not one, since the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. After WWII, the Jews began migrating back to the promised land. No nation wanted them. This caused strife among Arab nations and under a U.N. agreement, Jews could remain in the land but not make it their homeland. In defiance of the U.N. and the rest of the world, they raised the Star of David and restored the name Israel. Jews have been coming back home from all over the world ever since. This is the beginning of the ingathering discussed in these passages:

Amos 9:14, 15 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

Isa 11:11, 12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Joel 3:1, 2 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

All three of these areas of Prophecy, are talking about the same event. I give you this, from John Gill, as perhaps an interesting read on the verses of Joel:

I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat:
Aben Ezra and others are of opinion that this is the same with the valley of Berachah, where Jehoshaphat obtained a very great victory over many nations, 2Ch_20:1; but it does not appear to have been called by his name, and, besides, seems to be at a great distance from Jerusalem; though there may be an allusion to it, that as many nations were there collected together and destroyed, so shall it be in the latter day; and I am of opinion that no proper name of a place is here meant, as going by it in common, but is so called from the judgment of God here executed upon his and his people's enemies. So Jarchi calls it "the valley of judgments"; Jehoshaphat signifying "the judgment" of the Lord: Kimchi says it may be so called because of judgment, the Lord there pleading with the nations, and judging them: and in the Targum it is rendered,

"the valley of the division of judgment:''

and to me it designs no other than Armageddon, the seat of the battle of Almighty God, Rev_16:16; and which may signify the destruction of their troops;

and will plead with them there for my people, and for my heritage Israel; the people of the Jews, who will now be converted, who will have the "Loammi", Hosea 1:9-10, taken off of them, and will be called the people of the living God again, and be reckoned by him as his portion and inheritance; though not them only, but all the saints; all that have separated from antichrist, his doctrine and worship, and have suffered by him: (As to the meaning of the Loammi, see also: Rom. 11:8; 2 Cor. 3:15).

whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land; Kimchi refers this to the scattering of the Jews by Titus and his army, and the partition of Judea among them, which is not amiss; in consequence of which they are still a scattered people, and their land has been parted between Turks and Papists (d); sometimes inhabited by the one, and sometimes by the other, and now by both, on whom God will take vengeance; he will plead the cause of his people, by the severe judgments he will inflict on his and their enemies. This may respect the persecuting of the Christians from place to place, and seizing on their lands and estates, and parting them, as well as the dispersion of the Jews, and the partition of the land of Canaan.

Take care.

 

[rogerg]

Roger, In reviewing your last post on the subject of the Assembly and Israel, I think what you stated here is your major stumbling block: "It is not possible that earthly Israel and the elect/saved could at the same time be the people of God - it must be that it is one or the other."

Hi awelight,

Thanks for your post. However, before we discuss, so that we are both are working from the same basis(in order to bring
depth and contrast to the discussion), would you please provide a concise definition of the Israel you have in view,
and of what it consists?

 

[OIC1965]

I too often read the works coming out of the Ligonier Ministries. As to that article, I loved this paragraph:

"There is also a second imputation. Christ's righteousness is imputed to us. He not only takes our debit, but we also get His credit. Christ paid the penalty we could never satisfy, but He also kept the law perfectly, which we can't do either. Consequently, God credits to us His righteousness. We stand before God clothed in Christ's righteousness. We can actually say that we are saved by works—not at all by our works, but instead by Christ's works, His perfect obedience, on our behalf. One theologian said that two of the most beautiful words in the Bible are for us. Jesus lived and died—and rose again—for us. All of His work was done on our behalf."

This is why I maintain, that the Elect's Justification, is out of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. He is the Person and the Worker of our Justification. We come to know of our Justification before God, through God given Faith.

There are those however, that teach that our Justification before God is "BY" our faith. This would make the preposition "BY", the means of Justification. Said in another way: It is because of our faith we are Justified. This teaching puts the Cart before the Horse. It is one of the arguments, the Wesley/Arminian uses to try to circumnavigate the fact that Salvation is all of God. They believe they can lay hold of this imputation by the shear force of their will. Just believe on Christ. However, we know it's not quite that simple. Christ has already worked out all of the Elect' Justification (the horse), and we acquire this imputed work when we are Born of the Spirit. (the cart). Order is then maintained - the Elect are following their Savior.

Thanks for the article.

Yes, in that paragraph I think RC is speaking of two imputations: the imputation of our sins to Christ on the cross whereby He takes the penalty of sin on Himself, and the imputation of Christ’s righteousness to the believer.

Since salvation is by Grace through faith, I would hold that justification is by Grace through faith, not by or because of faith.

We are justified by the Grace of God, the Righteousness of the Christ and His Work on our behalf, and the Spirit’s application of Christ’s work through (secondary instrument) faith, which itself is a gift.

 

[OIC1965]

Additionally, I wanted to express this thought.

Sadly, on these electronic chats, we never really get to know the people we chat with. We can not visualize or hear the love of Christ and His Truth, through body language and/or pitch of the voice. We can only ascertain their true position in Christ by discussing Doctrine.

Those of us, who hold to the 5 Golden chains of Salvation, (Rom.8:28-30), are so frequently attacked by others, that it has made many true believers, hard and less loving. Not less loving towards the Lord but towards each other. We enter every chat, waiting and expecting to be attacked. We are suspicious of everyone we engage in conversation.

Jesus Christ wanted us to Love the Brethren with the same Love He had for His own. These constant attacks, by the unbelieving world, causes the believers skin to become tough and his/her position to become rigid. Before you know it, we have left our first love, just like the assembly in Ephesus and begin to act like we have arrived. I know personally, I have to fight against both daily.

In this chat forum, I did not call myself Chris, my real name but called myself "awelight". A reminder to myself, that I am just "A Wee Light", for the greater Light, Jesus Christ our Lord. The Scottish word: "wee", is how much knowledge, I believe myself to have.

You have stood for many of the Great Truth's of Scripture. We are in agreement upon the Doctrine of Soteriology, which includes Election, Predestination, Effectual Calling, Justification, Glorification and probably many more Doctrines as well. We may not always agree with every little Dot and Tittle but we work through those things, together. As such I rejoice in calling you Brother. May God Bless and keep you.

Amen, God bless you and yours and I trust we’ll meet on the other side of the river.

 

[awelight]

Hi awelight,

Thanks for your post. However, before we discuss, so that we are both are working from the same basis(in order to bring
depth and contrast to the discussion), would you please provide a concise definition of the Israel you have in view,
and of what it consists?

Fair enough. I will give you my answer without pulling in a lot of Scripture. But first, I want to reply to something I remember reading in one of your posts. I believe you said, something to the effect, that Scripture is spiritual or Scripture needs to be spiritualized.

Scriptures are the Words of the Spirit. They cannot be properly understood apart from a spiritual mind. They have a deep rooted spiritual message BUT they also have an important literal meaning. The enlightened mind, is able to see both the "Literal" meaning and the "Spiritually" discerned meaning lying beneath. A single verse of Scripture, is likened to a cut Diamond. The "literal" or "practical" meaning, is the Diamond itself. The "spiritually" discerned meaning, is the reflected light from within the Diamond. As one views the Diamond from many angles, one sees multiple ways in which the light is refracted. So to with every verse, there are many depths in which they can be applied.

In proper study, the believer is to first seek the literal or practical application. Then the spiritual meaning, as well as, the ability to weave that single thread into the tapestry. Both are assisted by the indwelling Spirit. Many Doctrinal errors are caused either by the "natural" mind, trying to make sense of Scripture or by the "spiritual" mind either: 1) Being indoctrinated into error, before they were Regenerated or shortly after, so unable to know the difference. 2) Entering into a study with preconceived bias. The first, causes one who has been quickened, to enter into the new life with a lot of "Religious Baggage". The second can and often does occur to all believers because there is darkness still in us. I thank God everyday, that I was not a "religious" person before He saved me. Therefore, I brought no "religious baggage" with me and was a clean slate to be worked upon.

Holy Writ is broken into three equal parts. 1) Doctrinal, 2) Practical Morality and 3) Prophecy. Very few believers are well balanced in all three. Most believers are well versed on one of these divisions. They are either Doctrinally strong or Prophetically strong or their strength lies in moral teachings. All of us, need to work on balance.

All Prophetical Scriptures, have both a literal meaning and a spiritually discerned meaning. Prophecy, may speak of a pending battle that Israel will soon endure (The Literal), while at the same time, having a larger meaning that will be fulfilled in the future. (The Spiritually discerned). The first can be ascertained by anyone who reads the Bible; the second only by those who are lead by the Spirit. In both cases, they will have literal applications. Example - Christ prophesied the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple and how it would be destroyed. The Temple was destroyed in 70AD. and not one stone was left upon the other. The literal fulfillment. The spiritually discerned meaning is: That God is setting aside the Jews, national Israel. He is scattering them like sheep. He will no longer except their sacrifices because they rejected THE Sacrifice. Again, Scripture tells us that national Israel was blinded and the Lord spoke in Parables so they could not perceive the Truth. That is the literal. However, the spiritually discerning mind asks - Why? The answer - If national Israel would have seen the Truth and excepted Jesus Christ for who He demonstrated He was, they would have made Him King. This would have interrupted the Lord's redemptive work and foiled God's plan. Thankfully, God's plan cannot be usurped. Nevertheless, even the believing Jews expected just that. Jesus Christ would be made King and establish the Kingdom to Israel. So when Christ mentioned His death and departure from them, it caused great anxiety.

I wanted to lay down this framework before I get into the subject of who Israel is. I will deal with that point in the follow-up post

 

[rogerg]

Fair enough. I will give you my answer without pulling in a lot of Scripture. But first, I want to reply to something I remember reading in one of your posts. I believe you said, something to the effect, that Scripture is spiritual or Scripture needs to be spiritualized.

I tend to look at it that God used the earthly as a representation and a demonstration of the spiritual for our edification
For issues that are of significance spiritually regarding His Gospel, God used the earthly as a demonstration of the spiritual,
the essence of which should not be confused as an equal to the spiritual:

[Mat 13:34 KJV]
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
[Mar 4:34 KJV]
34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

[Gal 4:22, 24 KJV]
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. ...
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

[Exo 25:9, 40 KJV]
9 According to all that I shew thee, [after] the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make [it]. ...
40 And look that thou make [them] after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.

[Heb 9:23 KJV]
23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.


[Heb 9:7-8, 11 KJV]
7 But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: ...
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
[Heb 9:13-14 KJV]
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 

[awelight]

Hi awelight,

Thanks for your post. However, before we discuss, so that we are both are working from the same basis(in order to bring
depth and contrast to the discussion), would you please provide a concise definition of the Israel you have in view,
and of what it consists?

So how do I see Israel in the Scriptures. A basic understanding of the past, present and future relationship to God.

Past - God chose for himself a nation out of the world. It would become known as Israel. Why He chose Israel, is a mystery, just as why He chose any of the Elect is a mystery. He established a Covenant relationship with them. Jehovah, is the Covenant name of the Lord with national Israel. Through this Nation, which God chose, would be the sole source or conduit by which the world would see the revelation of the living God. They were given the Law. They had the Tabernacle and the Holy of holies. They possessed the Ark of the Covenant, the physical representation that God was with them. Through Israel, the Lord of Glory would be born. There were Elect Jews among the non-believing Israel. The true citizens of Israel.

However, because of their disobedience and hardness of heart - they were often thrown into punishment. It was not the Elect Jews that were disobedient but the unbelieving Jews. However, because of the Covenant and for it's sake, The Lord would hear their cries and bring them back because of their repentance. Howbeit, the repentance was only temporary because the reason for their repentance was not genuine. They repented out of the harshness of their punishment, not out of a good heart. Nevertheless, because the Lord's love for his Elect people and the nation, He would restore them. This last point is very important going forward. If God had intended to break the Covenant relationship with Israel, surely he would have done it long ago. Instead, the OT Scriptures demonstrate his longsuffering towards Israel. Again one should ask - Why? Why is God being so patient with national Israel? Because He has a long term plan. The Israel of the past and present, with all their disobedience, will not usurp God's plan for national Israel.

Present - In Christ's day, Israel has been set aside and is temporarily blinded as in the national aspect. This occurred because of their hardness of heart and the perversion of the Truth. National Israel, could no longer serve as a viable conduit for the Truth of God. Jesus Christ came to deliver the unadulterated Truth and to make clear the fallen state of National Israel. Jesus also made clear, that eternal salvation was not by or through the Law but out of the Spirit. The Jews knew this Truth once but now, had perverted this great Truth. He distinguished the difference between the "natural" seed of promise with the "spiritual" seed of promise. Additionally, He made it clear that the Jews of National Israel, did not have redemptive life because of their bloodline. Nationally speaking, the Jews were a lost and blind people and useless to the Lord. This is how far Israel had fallen from the Truth, in a little over 400 years, while God was silent.

However, this was always God's plan. To use the uselessness of National Israel, to bring Salvation unto the Gentiles. This is why Scripture speaks of their hardness of heart and blindness, as a good thing for the Gentiles. A people that were not a people. This opened the door for Salvation to the Gentile nations. I want to stress at this point, a similarity between Jew and Gentile. God chose Israel as His chosen nation. Gentiles make up nations. In Scripture, there are only to groups or nations if you will. Jews who make up national Israel and Gentiles who make up nations. In both cases, the Elect Jews will make up National Israel, (However there are some Gentiles mixed in) and the Elect Gentiles will make up the Assembly/Church, (However, there are some Jews mixed in).

The Assembly, which Christ is building today, is a distinct organism. It serves several functions while Israel is blinded. They are:

1) All elected believers, are primarily Gentiles.
2) They constitute Christ's Body - a term never given in the OT. Israel is Jehovah's by Covenant and the Assembly is Christ's by Covenant.
3) The Assembly is the "conduit" for the Truth today. Replacing the role of Israel.
4) The Assembly is a living organism, both in the local aspect and the finished Universal aspect.
5) The Assembly has taken over the role as priests, replacing the Levites and has a High Priest in Jesus Christ.
6) The "taking up" or Rapture, is a promise to the Assembly and not Israel or the world.
7) The inheritance of the Assembly is Jesus Christ. Not the earth, not the Kingdom nor any other material thing.
8) A purpose of the Assembly, at this time, is to anger and make Jealous Israel. They were once the center of God's world but now they watch themselves fade in importance. They no longer have the Truth of God, the Assembly proclaims it. The idea of the Gentiles becoming true believers, infuriates them. They are dependent upon help from others. They are physically attacked daily, by their enemies. There is no peace or rest. In short - The Lord is letting them see what it is like, for some two thousand years, to not have the comfort of her loving husband. Yet, He still loves her.

Future - The next part has to do with Eschatology. If you are of the A-Millennial mindset, then nothing I say here will mean much. The A-Millennialist, has spiritualized the literal prophetical meaning of texts, to the point, they have no literal meaning at all.

As an Example: The A-millennialist believes, that the Scriptures about the "Great Tribulation", took place in 70AD. Therefore, they do not believe in a future Tribulation period. This is why they believe the Assembly, is the new Kingdom, the new Israel and has replaced national Israel. If one starts out, with the idea, that the Great Tribulation has already taken place - then you MUST spiritualize the meanings of prophecy in order to keep this concept intact. However, to believe that these things took place in 70AD. is not being honest with the Scriptures. Many of the prophecies, for that time period, did not take place. None of Matthew 24:29-31 took place in 70AD.

Nevertheless, The Covenant Lord will bring to fruition His Promise of the Kingdom to Israel. After the Assembly is complete and is removed - before the seven years of Tribulation upon Israel and the world, there will be no witness left for Christ. That is why the 144,000 Jews are sealed. Theses elected witnesses, will be preaching Christ and His Gospel during the Tribulation days. Many Jews will believe upon their witness. and some Gentiles. These are the elected Tribulation Saints. At the end of the Tribulation, The Lord will return in Glory and at that time, will establish the Kingdom to a restored national Israel. This begins the future Millennial Reign. It is a thousand years of reign before the last chapters of Revelation. All who are in the physical Millennial Kingdom, are made-up of elected individuals. Both Jew and Gentile. They came out of the Great Tribulation. During the Millennial Reign of Christ, there is national Israel and other Gentile nations. There are both, those still in a natural bodies, howbeit bodies apart from disease and those in glorified bodies. The New Jerusalem (Rev.21), is still in the Heavens and the old Jerusalem on earth. Those in glorified bodies will go back and forth between Heaven and Earth. The Assembly is in the Heavens but will have earthly duties. After the thousand years, the issue of human and angelic rebellion, sin, death and the Devil will be dealt with once and for all. There will be a new heaven and a new earth - free from sin forever. The new Jerusalem comes down where the old Jerusalem was, representing the Lord and His Holy City being with man forever. The Millennium ends and everything slides into Eternity.

Hopefully, this explains what is meant by National Israel. But as stated earlier, if you don't hold to a Futurist point of view, then much is meaningless. The A-Millennialist destroys the beauty of the Millennial Kingdom. and in doing so, loses the blessing of the vital importance and purpose of it. The lesson to be learned from it in God's Eternal Redemptive plan.

 

[awelight]

I tend to look at it that God used the earthly as a representation and a demonstration of the spiritual for our edification
For issues that are of significance spiritually regarding His Gospel, God used the earthly as a demonstration of the spiritual,
the essence of which should not be confused as an equal to the spiritual:

[Mat 13:34 KJV]
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
[Mar 4:34 KJV]
34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

[Gal 4:22, 24 KJV]
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. ...
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

[Exo 25:9, 40 KJV]
9 According to all that I shew thee, [after] the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make [it]. ...
40 And look that thou make [them] after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.

[Heb 9:23 KJV]
23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.


[Heb 9:7-8, 11 KJV]
7 But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: ...
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
[Heb 9:13-14 KJV]
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

I see what you are doing there but I really don't see how your reply is in alignment with my first post. It told me nothing in reference to what you got out of it.

 

[rogerg]

I see what you are doing there but I really don't see how your reply is in alignment with my first post. It told me nothing in reference to what you got out of it.

Don't follow your point? What I got out of what? I was demonstrating in a few verses how God uses earthly parables and
allegory, etc to demonstrate and depict the spiritual, with the spiritual being their essence, not the earthly.
BTW, I wasn't replying to your first post but your second if that helps clarify.

[2Ti 2:15 KJV] 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

5) The Assembly has taken over the role as priests, replacing the Levites and has a High Priest in Jesus Christ.

Precious friend, I agree with Most of your post, but cannot find "priests or priesthood" For The GRACE Assembly Of The Body Of CHRIST, In The Revelation Of The Mystery (Romans - Philemon KJB!), but, I have found the following:

{adopted, dear} children of {the Living God, light, the day, Abraham, promise}, believers, sons {of God}, daughters, brothers, sisters, brethren {beloved, carnal, faithful, and spiritual}, babes In Christ, {young, aged} men/women, {dearly} beloved {of The LORD}, members {in particular, one of another}, servants {of Christ}, saints, ministers, fellowlabourers, workers, co-labourers {with God}, elect of God, followers of God, heirs/joint-heirs, the temple {of God}, comforters, walkers, runners, kissers, greeters, saluters, sufferers, groaners, prayer partners, rejoicers, warriors, wrestlers, And, ambassadors of Christ!

Did I "miss it" somehow?

 

[rogerg]

So how do I see Israel in the Scriptures. A basic understanding of the past, present and future relationship to God.

Guess I may not have been specific enough in my question to you. I thought the context we were discussing Israel in, was for a concise definition of Israel, the Israel that you see being brought forward from times past into times future. I don't find that definition being present in your reply, although I might have missed or misunderstood it. I know you identified a supposed 144,000, but respectfully, that didn't answer my question. For example (and just as examples), would you consider every Jew who ever lived will also be its citizens, or, just those alive at the end, or something in-between, and if in-between, then under what criteria will they be chosen? Which geographical boundary on earth will be its borders, given earth is to be destroyed? In other words, it seems to me, that
for an earthly Israel (future) to truly be Israel(according to your definition) - for it to have the name of Israel - must be comprised and consist of every permutation of Israel which has ever existed throughout time with every Jew who has ever existed as a part of it, otherwise, it ain't Israel. If it is not that, then what is it?

 

[awelight]

Guess I may not have been specific enough in my question to you. I thought the context we were discussing Israel in, was for a concise definition of Israel, the Israel that you see being brought forward from times past into times future. I don't find that definition being present in your reply, although I might have missed or misunderstood it. I know you identified a supposed 144,000, but respectfully, that didn't answer my question. For example (and just as examples), would you consider every Jew who ever lived will also be its citizens, or, just those alive at the end, or something in-between, and if in-between, then under what criteria will they be chosen? Which geographical boundary on earth will be its borders, given earth is to be destroyed? In other words, it seems to me, that
for an earthly Israel (future) to truly be Israel(according to your definition) - for it to have the name of Israel - must be comprised and consist of every permutation of Israel which has ever existed throughout time with every Jew who has ever existed as a part of it, otherwise, it ain't Israel. If it is not that, then what is it?

Roger, the answer was in the - future - section of my post.

Is earth made new before or after the Millennial Reign? If you BEFORE, then everything I say is pointless to you. That simple.

As pointed out in my post, the Millennial Kingdom is on this present earth. All those that enter into the Kingdom are the survivors of the Tribulation. God's elect from that time period. Both Jew and Gentile. The elect, that have gone onto Glory, are in the Heavenly Mansion. Sinners have been removed from earth and go into Judgement. Jerusalem will be rebuilt out from the destruction of the Tribulation days. Weapons will be turned into plows. Diseases will end. The Lord will bless the earth with proper weather and rains when needed. The Lord will Reign from Jerusalem. Those on the earth shall still be given in marriage and have children. The earth's population will increase rapidly. Death is rare and individuals live for a very long time. Judgement, is swift and permanent under the Lord's rule of Iron. While everyone, going into the Millennial Kingdom were saved individuals - their offspring still suffer from the sin nature. A nature passed on by flesh and blood. There is peace and rest upon the people of Earth. The population of this earth, will consist of both "flesh and blood" and "flesh and bone" In other words, Those still in human bodies and those in glorified bodies. Those in human bodies do not have access to the Heavenly aspect of the Kingdom - yet. Those in glorified bodies (OT, Assembly and Tribulation Martyrs - who have passed into life through the valley of the shadow of death.) move freely from Heaven to earth and back again.

At the end of the Millennium. Satan, that old Dragon, will be loosed for a short season and go about tempting those on the earth. Many will follow him into a final battle against Jerusalem. When Jerusalem is completely surrounded, the Lord will call down fire upon them and they are instantly swept into the lake of fire. Then the Devil is cast in. Along with sin and death.

There is Scripture for all of the above points. Here are a few:

Psalm 2:6 Yet I have set my king Upon my holy hill of Zion.

Isa_65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days; for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed. (Extended life)
Compare that verse to this verse:
Rev_21:4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. (No death)

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It is at this point, we see the subject of Rev. 21 and 22. The Kingdom as related to it's Eternal existence.

So does this Israel have boundaries in the Millennial Kingdom? Yes. The boundaries promised by God. Is Jerusalem within those boundaries? Yes. I can't define it much better than this.