Saved by Water

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CS1

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May 23, 2012
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You stated that being indwelt and coming upon mean different things concerning the Holy Ghost. As seen from scripture relevant to the rebirth experience this is not accurate. Notice Acts 10:44 says the Holy Ghost fell on the group. And in Acts 10:47 Peter clarifies that the group actually received the Holy Ghost.

Evidence that speaking in tongues accompanies the receiving of the Holy Ghost is provided in the following scriptures: Acts 2:2-4, 10:44-48, and 19:1-6.
rebirth is done in the person the Holy Spirit coming upon the believer is to do the work of the Lord
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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Paul made it quite clear that water baptism isn't required for salvation. It is a command to obey, for obedience.

To repeat, water baptism is required for obedience, not salvation.


I know your mind is made up, regardless of the facts. All these verses have been addressed.


The very many verses that mention no water baptism should be a clue to you.

Those who preach that water baptism is a requirement for salvation remind me of the believers who belonged to the Pharisee party and insisted that circumcision was required to be saved. Both ideas require human participation. Both are RITUALS ONLY.

Acts 15-
1 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”
2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.
3 The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad.
4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

Peter's response:
8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.
9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?
11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

If you don't see a direct parallel between your claims and the "party of the Pharisees", you just aren't looking.
The command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus has nothing to do with the OT law or circumcision. The people referenced in the scripture you present wanted the NT believers to obey those things in addition to obeying the NT mandate.
 

Wansvic

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Taking a few verses out of context and turning into a statement of faith is wrong. The blood of Christ washes sin away. If a person repents and believes on death row, he may never get the opportunity to be baptised. You really believe that water has some kind of magical sin removing power? You add the works of man to the free gift of salvation. Baptism is important, but not for the reasons you give.
Establishing what is true in God's word requires 2-3 scriptures the state the same thing. Obedience to water baptism for the remission of sin meets that criteria.

I believe what God says about water baptism as expressed in His word. And that belief along with obedience to the command brings about the reality stated; sins are remitted. My job was to believe and allow someone to immerse me in water as God said. God did the rest.

I have family members that are prison guards. They attest that inmates are afforded access to religious leaders for things such as baptisms. A State cannot legally restrain them. Keep in mind that nothing is impossible with God.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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The command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus has nothing to do with the OT law or circumcision.
Did I say that? No, I didn't. I pointed out the parallelism between what we read in Acts 15 and what you preach.

The believers of the Pharisee party insisted that one had to undergo circumcision (a ritual) in order to be saved.
You claim that one has to be water baptized in order to be saved.

Same principle in play. One MUST undergo a ritual in order to be saved.

The people referenced in the scripture you present wanted the NT believers to obey those things in addition to obeying the NT mandate.
Allow me to refresh your memory about the text:

Acts 15:1 - Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.

Maybe the color red is easier to read.

You're doing what they did, only using a different ritual.

Your view is:

Unless you are water baptized, according to the custom taught by wansvic, or whoever taught him, you cannot be saved.

The only difference is the names and ritual.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Establishing what is true in God's word requires 2-3 scriptures the state the same thing. Obedience to water baptism for the remission of sin meets that criteria.
If you can't quote any verse that makes this point, you only have an opinion.

And there are way more verses that leave out water baptism when dealing with what results in salvation than mention baptism.

But even so, you still miss the point. Salvation involves faith in Christ and being Spirit baptized. But you just refuse to accept the Word on that.

I have family members that are prison guards. They attest that inmates are afforded access to religious leaders for things such as baptisms. A State cannot legally restrain them. Keep in mind that nothing is impossible with God.
This doesn't show that water baptism is required for salvation.
 

Wansvic

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Baptism symbolises burial. What do you do when someone dies? You bury them. We die with Christ when we receive Him. (Colossians 3:3) We are buried through baptism. (Romans 6:4)...
You state we are buried with Jesus through baptism. Notice what Paul said beginning in the next verse: IF a person has been planted in the likeness of Jesus death, they will be also in the likeness of his resurrection. Paul's statement makes the point that water baptism is not optional. Being in the likeness of Jesus resurrection depends on obedience to the command to be baptized.

5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
 

Wansvic

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you twisted much and continue to do so

you cannot escape the fact that we are told the Holy Spirit seals us when we believe

so what do you do? you imagination it also states people speak in tongues at the same time could be possible even though no such reference is made

HOWEVER....you have messed up your Oneness doctrine because it seems you forgot that you do not believe a person is saved until they are water baptized

in your haste to deny what one verse states, you add to it but then forget that you must include baptism if you are Oneness

literally, your beliefs are blown out of the water but you hopelessly continue to add to scripture, subtract from scripture and put together passages that are not related

if you would simply believe the Bible as it is written, you would not have to work so hard at remembering what you said, when you said it and where you got it from

clearly, you are in over your head
I do believe the Bible as it is written. And I remember exactly what I've shared. Your accusations are unfounded.

The bible states we are to believe in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, repent, be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin and receive the Holy Ghost. Scripture shows that those who received the Holy Ghost spoke in tongues. I accept these as conditions associated with the NT rebirth. And they align with what Jesus said about being born again. Unless a man is born of water and Spirit he can not enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)
 

Wansvic

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Unless you are water baptized, according to the custom taught by wansvic, or whoever taught him, you cannot be saved.

The only difference is the names and ritual.
One need only to read their bible to see where "wansvic's custom" originated.
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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If you can't quote any verse that makes this point, you only have an opinion.

And there are way more verses that leave out water baptism when dealing with what results in salvation than mention baptism.

But even so, you still miss the point. Salvation involves faith in Christ and being Spirit baptized. But you just refuse to accept the Word on that.


This doesn't show that water baptism is required for salvation.
1. I have supplied scripture over and over that makes the point.
2. Scriptures are commonly relevant to one point or another. And should not be taken as excluding something pointed out elsewhere.
3. Water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus is stated as necessary.
 
S

SophieT

Guest
I do believe the Bible as it is written. And I remember exactly what I've shared. Your accusations are unfounded.

The bible states we are to believe in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, repent, be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin and receive the Holy Ghost. Scripture shows that those who received the Holy Ghost spoke in tongues. I accept these as conditions associated with the NT rebirth. And they align with what Jesus said about being born again. Unless a man is born of water and Spirit he can not enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)
we both know that is not true

but sadly, you do not seem able to let go of your Oneness doctrine and you keep insisting that unless you are water baptized you are not saved

according to you...NOT THE BIBLE...but according to you, we have to be immersed in water for salvation and even that has a formula. you believe that if a person was water baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, that person must be re-baptized using the name of Jesus ONLY

why is that? that is because, according to your doctrine, Jesus is actually the name of the Father and the Holy Spirit..which is why your group is called Oneness

water does not wash away sin....ONLY the blood of Christ washes away sin

you preach a different Jesus and a different gospel

your beliefs are not biblical

Unless a man is born of water and Spirit he can not enter into the kingdom of God.
and you would be the first to declare that Jesus was still under law here, so no application. however, because you think you can twist it to suit your narrative, you use it

your beliefs are not biblical
 
S

SophieT

Guest
One need only to read their bible to see where "wansvic's custom" originated.
I have several translation, including the KJ, which I was brought up on and not one agrees with you

we also have any number of translations available online and they also do not agree with you

54 pages of you denying what you actually do
 
S

SophieT

Guest
1. I have supplied scripture over and over that makes the point.
2. Scriptures are commonly relevant to one point or another. And should not be taken as excluding something pointed out elsewhere.
3. Water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus is stated as necessary.
no, no and no

you have not done anything but supplied documentation for your Oneness sect beliefs

you add or subtract or twist scripture....whichever is the most convenient for you at any given time

water baptism does not save
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Unless you are water baptized, according to the custom taught by wansvic, or whoever taught him, you cannot be saved.

The only difference is the names and ritual.
One need only to read their bible to see where "wansvic's custom" originated.
Nope. You do not understand the difference between real and ritual. Therefore, you CANNOT understand any teaching on "baptism". You only have eyes for water.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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I do believe the Bible as it is written. And I remember exactly what I've shared. Your accusations are unfounded.

The bible states we are to believe in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, repent, be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin and receive the Holy Ghost. Scripture shows that those who received the Holy Ghost spoke in tongues. I accept these as conditions associated with the NT rebirth. And they align with what Jesus said about being born again. Unless a man is born of water and Spirit he can not enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

you need to quote the word of God correctly.

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Receive the Gift

this can all be very easily understood if you agree with those who have already been baptized in the name of the Father-Son, and Holy Spirit is valid. Do you agree that those baptized in this manner, their baptism is vailed and they are saved?

Yes or no?
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
If you can't quote any verse that makes this point, you only have an opinion.

And there are way more verses that leave out water baptism when dealing with what results in salvation than mention baptism.

But even so, you still miss the point. Salvation involves faith in Christ and being Spirit baptized. But you just refuse to accept the Word on that.

This doesn't show that water baptism is required for salvation.
1. I have supplied scripture over and over that makes the point.
The only point you've made, unintentionally, is that you do not or cannot differentiate between ritual and reality. Even though it's been explained to you over and over.

2. Scriptures are commonly relevant to one point or another. And should not be taken as excluding something pointed out elsewhere.
But when you can't or won't discern between reality and ritual, you can't understand the difference.

3. Water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus is stated as necessary.
Water baptism IS necessary to show or demonstrate to others that you are being identified with Christ. But you've taken it way too far to claim that it is necessary for salvation.

In principle, you are teaching what the believers of the Pharisee party taught. Acts 15. They believed a ritual was necessary for salvation (15:1). You teach that water baptism is necessary for salvation.

Both are wrong.

You have water in your eyes. Every time you come to the word "baptism" you only see water. You completely miss the real baptisms where water ISN'T around. Like the Red Sea, Noah's ark, baptism of the Holy Spirit.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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it sad those who hold to baptism as the means for salvation when they will not see water washing as normal practice in Judaism.
Ceremonial washing was done before you went up to the temple. there were pools of water all over Jerusalem.

Why did John baptized outside of the city and not in one of these pools created for washing to go into the temple aera?

there were many reasons. Ceremonial washing is very important to the jews, but nowhere do we see it as means of salvation.
When John said to Jesus " I should not be baptizing you but I should receive your Baptism. Jesus said Suffer it to be so to fulfill all righteousness, Did Jesus need this water baptism for him to be saved? No.

The Baptism of Jesus, John said is the baptism of the Holy Spirit in chapter 1 of John.

in every baptism, does a person get baptized because the water saves them or they heard the Gospel message and accepted that message in faith than were baptized because of what they believed?

Roman chapter 10:9-10

If you confess with your mouth The Lord Jesu Christ and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the Dead You must be saved?

excuse me Paul said as he received this word from Jesus himself, you " Shall be saved".

nothing was mentioned about water baptism. In 1 Corinthians chapter 12 through 14 with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, Paul did not mention water baptism.

Water Baptism is important all should do so after they are saved to be obedient to the Lord. Yet tongues are not important for salvation.

this wrong mandate by some has caused some very bad foolishness.

Like:

trying to teach people to speak in tongues, is an error. telling them to repeat after me. Man ends up hurting the gift because they force others to accept it.

The Holy Spirit who is God knows the mind of God and is fully capable of empowering one to speak HE made the mouth.
Yet the Holy Spirit will never force one to speak in tongues, He is a perfect gentleman, and many I have seen touched by the Holy Spirit had a wonderful experience that was quiet, reserved, and powerful.
some receive in groups, others prefer to be alone, some are sitting, others stand.

we cheapen the Holy Spirit when man mandates foolish teaching that is not edifying and causes those who don't experience what you have the way you have to doubt their salvation they have.

That should concern you very much because Jesus said those who do this will be dealt with very seriously.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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we both know that is not true

but sadly, you do not seem able to let go of your Oneness doctrine and you keep insisting that unless you are water baptized you are not saved

according to you...NOT THE BIBLE...but according to you, we have to be immersed in water for salvation and even that has a formula. you believe that if a person was water baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, that person must be re-baptized using the name of Jesus ONLY

why is that? that is because, according to your doctrine, Jesus is actually the name of the Father and the Holy Spirit..which is why your group is called Oneness

water does not wash away sin....ONLY the blood of Christ washes away sin

you preach a different Jesus and a different gospel

your beliefs are not biblical



and you would be the first to declare that Jesus was still under law here, so no application. however, because you think you can twist it to suit your narrative, you use it

your beliefs are not biblical
You fail to realize that scripture itself expresses this truth. I'll make one last suggestion and walk away. Be obedient and be baptized
the way the apostles baptized everyone in the word; in the name of the Lord Jesus. I guarantee you won't be sorry you obeyed God's word.
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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FreeGrace2 said:
Unless you are water baptized, according to the custom taught by wansvic, or whoever taught him, you cannot be saved.

The only difference is the names and ritual.

Nope. You do not understand the difference between real and ritual. Therefore, you CANNOT understand any teaching on "baptism". You only have eyes for water.
Both are necessary as evidenced by the word.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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you need to quote the word of God correctly.

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Receive the Gift

this can all be very easily understood if you agree with those who have already been baptized in the name of the Father-Son, and Holy Spirit is valid. Do you agree that those baptized in this manner, their baptism is vailed and they are saved?

Yes or no?
No. I do not. The apostles obeyed Jesus' command in Matthew 28:19 by water baptizing everyone in the name of the Lord Jesus. Why? Because the Lord Jesus is who was crucified for every single individual.

If there is no significance in being water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus why doesn't the biblical record have even one baptism where the phrase I baptize you in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Ghost used?

Do you actually believe the apostles would have disobeyed Jesus? They did not. They obeyed his command by baptizing everyone in his name.

Instead of verbally beating up people who are pointing out what scripture actually says maybe the wise thing to do would be to accept what is clearly there in the word. And be obedient. Consider Paul rebaptized those who had not been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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it sad those who hold to baptism as the means for salvation when they will not see water washing as normal practice in Judaism.
Ceremonial washing was done before you went up to the temple. there were pools of water all over Jerusalem.

Why did John baptized outside of the city and not in one of these pools created for washing to go into the temple aera?

there were many reasons. Ceremonial washing is very important to the jews, but nowhere do we see it as means of salvation.
When John said to Jesus " I should not be baptizing you but I should receive your Baptism. Jesus said Suffer it to be so to fulfill all righteousness, Did Jesus need this water baptism for him to be saved? No.

The Baptism of Jesus, John said is the baptism of the Holy Spirit in chapter 1 of John.

in every baptism, does a person get baptized because the water saves them or they heard the Gospel message and accepted that message in faith than were baptized because of what they believed?

Roman chapter 10:9-10

If you confess with your mouth The Lord Jesu Christ and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the Dead You must be saved?

excuse me Paul said as he received this word from Jesus himself, you " Shall be saved".

nothing was mentioned about water baptism. In 1 Corinthians chapter 12 through 14 with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, Paul did not mention water baptism.

Water Baptism is important all should do so after they are saved to be obedient to the Lord. Yet tongues are not important for salvation.

this wrong mandate by some has caused some very bad foolishness.

Like:

trying to teach people to speak in tongues, is an error. telling them to repeat after me. Man ends up hurting the gift because they force others to accept it.

The Holy Spirit who is God knows the mind of God and is fully capable of empowering one to speak HE made the mouth.
Yet the Holy Spirit will never force one to speak in tongues, He is a perfect gentleman, and many I have seen touched by the Holy Spirit had a wonderful experience that was quiet, reserved, and powerful.
some receive in groups, others prefer to be alone, some are sitting, others stand.

we cheapen the Holy Spirit when man mandates foolish teaching that is not edifying and causes those who don't experience what you have the way you have to doubt their salvation they have.

That should concern you very much because Jesus said those who do this will be dealt with very seriously.
The NT water baptism has nothing to do with OT washings. Both water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost were required of NT believers.

Peter commanded the Gentiles to be water baptized in the name of Jesus and they received the Holy Ghost. (Acts 10)
Philip water baptized the Samaritans in the name of the Lord Jesus and afterward Peter and John assisted them in receiving the Holy Ghost. (Acts 8)
Paul water baptized the Ephesus disciples in the name of the Lord Jesus and laid hands on them to receive the Holy Ghost. (Acts 19)
Ananias told Paul to be water baptized and wash away his sins calling on the name of the Lord, and Paul also received the Holy Ghost. (Acts 9, 22:16)