Eternal Security: What do you do with James 2?

[BillG]

I believe scripture tells us that it does have something to do with eternal security.

Jesus said that it isn't those who say Lord, Lord that enters the kingdom but ones who do the will of the Father.

It is like this: you can believe with faith that Christ can save you, but not believe what he says about murder or judging others. Just because you believe in one thing he tells us does not mean you have complete faith in the Lord.

Firstly and I am sure you believe that complete faith in the Lord is not perfect faith?
If it is then by our we have a problem.

I posted

Matthew 25:37-40
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

In my response to this thread.

Yes Jesus did say

Matthew 25:41-45
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

And as I tried to convey that those who have genuine faith will have works.

Those who were assured by Jesus and called him Lord.
They did works, as a result of faith.

Those that called Jesus Lord and rejected were rejected did not do the works of those who Jesus commended.

Those who were commended truly new him aka faith.

Those who were not and called him Lord are rejected.
He was not Lord of their lives.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Never said anything different.

Yes works will follow, that's the result of faith.

If one does not show works then one has to ask the question why?
It not a cut and cold case.
Even Jesus said we will produce works at varying levels.

Yet before writing people off we need to come alongside in love and seek why.

The first verse in John

James 2:1

Beware of Personal Favoritism
1 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality.

He is addressing the very people who he calls brethren, which could also be translated as brothers.

I have posted on this thread and I asked you if you read it and yet you quoted just one sentence. I am not sure you read it fully.

But anyway that post was along the lines of

"Works do not save us, faith saves us"

I quoted

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

See I believe that.
Yet you intimated I did not.

no I was just supporting what you said actually we should get away from always perceiving an attack

I read your post and agreed

 

[Chester]

Your answer Is not clear,was the thief on the cross saved by faith alone In CHRIST alone to the glory of GOD alone OR were works necessary for him to receive salvation I’m not talking about what would the thief on the cross have done If he got saved and he wasn’t on the cross?

LOL! Part of it is our use of words - I think it is very clear to say the thief was saved by (God's) grace through faith (in Jesus), and not of works. I see no need to add "alone" to any of those words.

If I would say he was saved "by faith alone in Christ alone to the glory of God alone" then I would be using some man's words - and those words carry implications that might not be what I think the Bible teaches. One problem with your version is simply that Biblically "faith alone" is a dead faith. So I do not agree with the wording or the implications of this statement.

So, no, the thief was not saved by "faith alone in Christ alone to the glory of God alone". Nor was he saved by works.

He was saved by God's grace through faith, not of works: but then he became the workmanship of God.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

LOL! Part of it is our use of words - I think it is very clear to say the thief was saved by (God's) grace through faith (in Jesus), and not of works. I see no need to add "alone" to any of those words.

If I would say he was saved "by faith alone in Christ alone to the glory of God alone" then I would be using some man's words - and those words carry implications that might not be what I think the Bible teaches. One problem with your version is simply that Biblically "faith alone" is a dead faith. So I do not agree with the wording or the implications of this statement.

So, no, the thief was not saved by "faith alone in Christ alone to the glory of God alone". Nor was he saved by works.

He was saved by God's grace through faith, not of works: but then he became the workmanship of God.

I find the thief who was saved interesting in that we don’t know his works other than he had sinned and was put to death for them.

many would say he wasn’t baptized but we actually don’t know that we know he wasn’t baptized on the cross but it’s very possible he was baptized here

“And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬


We know he confessed his sins on the cross , but we have no clue about his life’s work we know he was a sinner but that’s true of all of us how did he treat the poor and neglected of society ? Did he judge others and refuse to forgive them ? Was he looking with list at others ?

he is a bit of a mystery because we know so little of his life only the moment of his death is sure and the eternal life that followed

 

[BillG]

no I was just supporting what you said actually we should get away from always perceiving an attack

I read your post and agreed

I am really sorry.

I have looked back through this thread and I cannot the one line I thought you responded to on here.

My initial thoughts are maybe its on another thread we are on.

Maybe OSAS or saved by water.

Anyway I apologise and I agree totally from always perceiving an attack.

Alas I fall foul of that because the threads that I am on at the moment all 3 of them mean a lot to me because I suffered severe doubt as a result of what these threads are preaching.

The doubts were there before and really affected my walk with Jesus.

So I am very passionate to come against it.

But yes I let my emotions get in the way.

Please always feel free ask me to calm down.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I am really sorry.

I have looked back through this thread and I cannot the one line I thought you responded to on here.

My initial thoughts are maybe its on another thread we are on.

Maybe OSAS or saved by water.

Anyway I apologise and I agree totally from always perceiving an attack.

Alas I fall foul of that because the threads that I am on at the moment all 3 of them mean a lot to me because I suffered severe doubt as a result of what these threads are preaching.

The doubts were there before and really affected my walk with Jesus.

So I am very passionate to come against it.

But yes I let my emotions get in the way.

Please always feel free ask me to calm down.

dear brother in all
My interactions with you here , there has never once been an occasion for you to be sorry toward me , I am always encouraged by your posts and have yet to find an offense in any of your words to me or others .

if we weren’t passionate about the gospel and scripture we probably shouldn’t be here discussing our beliefs
your my “big “ brother and I hope that feeling of sorry flies far away regarding me or our interactions here you are a blessing and I always thoroughly read your posts and find much edification even if i don’t have time or feel compelled to respond or if I do and it comes off as an argumentative point

you’ve been a blessing to me since I’ve been here and I’ve learned some of what I believe reading some of your thoughts and considering them as I do from a few others here

you are appreciated even if from far away

 

[BillG]

dear brother in all
My interactions with you here , there has never once been an occasion for you to be sorry toward me , I am always encouraged by your posts and have yet to find an offense in any of your words to me or others .

if we weren’t passionate about the gospel and scripture we probably shouldn’t be here discussing our beliefs
your my “big “ brother and I hope that feeling of sorry flies far away regarding me or our interactions here you are a blessing and I always thoroughly read your posts and find much edification even if i don’t have time or feel compelled to respond or if I do and it comes off as an argumentative point

you’ve been a blessing to me since I’ve been here and I’ve learned some of what I believe reading some of your thoughts and considering them as I do from a few others here

you are appreciated even if from far away

Wow truly humbled by what you have said.
I really don't know what else to say other than God is good and he gives us people like you and me to build each other up.

God bless you my brother in Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

The thief had faith - that is clear.
The thief gave a verbal testimony - that is works - that is clear.
But he was not saved by his works, but by his faith: but like all faith that saves his faith was not a "faith alone," for such a faith is dead.

My view is that the bit about "faith alone" (without works, being dead) isn't saying that someone's faith is useless or they aren't saved. The Bible makes it very clear in plenty of places that faith in Christ is sufficient for salvation.

James can't just come along and say "faith without works is dead" and undermine the gospel of Christ. James is saying that something is dead, but it isn't salvation that is dead. I think he's just saying that you can have faith, but people with real, genuine, sincere, convictions act on their faith.

Faith with works is lively and vibrant and energetic. Faith without works is stale, stagnant, dead in regards to effecting change on Earth.

That's just how I'm seeing it anyway.

 

[Blik]

I find the thief who was saved interesting in that we don’t know his works other than he had sinned and was put to death for them.

many would say he wasn’t baptized but we actually don’t know that we know he wasn’t baptized on the cross but it’s very possible he was baptized here

“And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬


We know he confessed his sins on the cross , but we have no clue about his life’s work we know he was a sinner but that’s true of all of us how did he treat the poor and neglected of society ? Did he judge others and refuse to forgive them ? Was he looking with list at others ?

he is a bit of a mystery because we know so little of his life only the moment of his death is sure and the eternal life that followed

I agree. I think it is wrong to think of this truth as anything but what it tells us. There are many things we don't know about it, but many people assume they know and say it tells them about how the Lord acts. We don't know if the thief would accept baptism, we aren't to assume one way or the other. We don't know if he would live his faith or not if his life wasn't taken then.. All we know is the truth that his faith in the Lord resulted in the Lord saving him.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Wow truly humbled by what you have said.
I really don't know what else to say other than God is good and he gives us people like you and me to build each other up.

God bless you my brother in Jesus.

that’s it exactly brother we’re meant to lift each other up and it’s the good lords design for all Of us I can’t wait to be singing “worthy is the lamb “ in eternity with our huge eternal family one day!!

What glories will be hereafter

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I agree. I think it is wrong to think of this truth as anything but what it tells us. There are many things we don't know about it, but many people assume they know and say it tells them about how the Lord acts. We don't know if the thief would accept baptism, we aren't to assume one way or the other. We don't know if he would live his faith or not if his life wasn't taken then.. All we know is the truth that his faith in the Lord resulted in the Lord saving him.

amen indeed and as far as his further works he wasn’t really able to do much at the time but Jesus was looking into his heart of faith

 

[Pilgrimshope]

My view is that the bit about "faith alone" (without works, being dead) isn't saying that someone's faith is useless or they aren't saved. The Bible makes it very clear in plenty of places that faith in Christ is sufficient for salvation.

James can't just come along and say "faith without works is dead" and undermine the gospel of Christ. James is saying that something is dead, but it isn't salvation that is dead. I think he's just saying that you can have faith, but people with real, genuine, sincere, convictions act on their faith.

Faith with works is lively and vibrant and energetic. Faith without works is stale, stagnant, dead in regards to effecting change on Earth.

That's just how I'm seeing it anyway.

works without faith is useless , but the seed of faith will move us into doing good rather than evil works and this process saves us . Because we’re going to answer for our works both good and bad

When we say good works it seems
We’re just talking about doing what’s right towards one another in Gods eyes .

alot Of Christians already do many good works that Christ teaches because of the faith in thier heart but they don’t realize it because they aren’t seeking God by works but they are planted firmly in faith as you are suggesting here.

Our works are very relevant regarding salvation because of this truth

“Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when Paul insists on this

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s because that will move us into good works and becoming zealous for them by faith first in Christ and hearing the truth about our deeds who believe

 

[SomeDisciple]

A few things in response

1. James is talking to people who have NO WORKS. Not to people who had works, then stopped them when tested.
2. Paul spoke of any works, In titus 3 he said not by works of righteousness which we have done. This would include any work of righteousness. In Rom 4 he spoke of abraham, There was no law when abraham was doing his sanctifying works. So he could not be talking about the law. We must be careful and interpret correctly. Which in context. Some of what paul said was concerning the law ( as the jews were trying to insert the law to the gospel) but not every time. Pauls letters were to gentiles who did not have the law. Not jews. So again, We must interpret paul as they would interpret him
3. Paul said lest anyone should boast. We boast or take credit for works when we claim any work we do is part of our salvation. A person who thinks they must be water baptised to be saved, boast of saving themselves by the fact they were water baptized. Add any work and you come up with the same conc;Union. If works are done in order to earn, keep maintain or not lose salvation. It is a works of boasting and we take the credit and not God.
4. Abraham offered his son up decades after he was considered righteous by God, God did not wait until this act to declare abraham was saved. In fact it took along time for abraham to gain this much faith. Just look at his earlier years. Where he lacked faith in things concerning a son, which led to adultry and a son out of wedlock.

1. That's true.
2. I still think in any case he was talking about works as under the law, in the broadest sense- the conscience is a law in itself for those without the law.
3. I'm pretty sure Paul isn't talking about Baptism.

"Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith.
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law"

You can't boast about anything you do in Christ, anyway, because it's your reasonable service. Anyone saved by the works of the law could boast, because they were super-duper holy, but nobody can boast, because nobody can keep the law.

The idea that you are taking any credit away from God doesn't make sense to me, because nothing would matter if Jesus didn't do his work. He still gets all the Glory. We just believe in what he did, and doing what he says demonstrates that belief.

4) Well, James says that his offering of Issac fullfilled the scripture that said he believed God and was accredited with righteousness. Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but I'm not gonna argue with James.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1. That's true.
2. I still think in any case he was talking about works as under the law, in the broadest sense- the conscience is a law in itself for those without the law.
3. I'm pretty sure Paul isn't talking about Baptism.

"Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith.
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law"

You can't boast about anything you do in Christ, anyway, because it's your reasonable service. Anyone saved by the works of the law could boast, because they were super-duper holy, but nobody can boast, because nobody can keep the law.

The idea that you are taking any credit away from God doesn't make sense to me, because nothing would matter if Jesus didn't do his work. He still gets all the Glory. We just believe in what he did, and doing what he says demonstrates that belief.

4) Well, James says that his offering of Issac fullfilled the scripture that said he believed God and was accredited with righteousness. Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but I'm not gonna argue with James.

1. Paul said that what Abraham did with his son is NOT what he was justified by. James said it is. So lets try to resolve the difference.
2. If I can boast of getting circumcised And that is what help me get saved. I can boast of being baptized and that is what helped me get saved. in fact. You can add any work you want. If I did to earn, maintain or keep my salvation. I have boasted of helping save myself
3. Remember, In romans 4 Paul also called it earning a wage. If I pay my debt by works of any kind. I am earning a wage, and not recieving a gift.
4. Abraham did justify his faith. But not before God. Again, I ask, Did God not know if Abraham’s faith was real? Of course not. If he did not know. He would never have given him his righteousness. Yet again, How many people have so great of faith they are willing to offer their child. I do not have faith God will raise my child. Do you? How long did it take for abraham to gain that much faith? Remember, He laughed at God when God told him Sarah would have a child. And his faith was so weak he committed adultry with his maid. I hope you do not believe Abraham was not saved at this time. That would be troubling.
5. We do take credit away from God. God said he would share credit with now one. We are saved in Christ and in christ only. Not by any works of righteousness we have done, are doing or will do. But by Gods mercy.
6. The tax collector was justified because he got on his knees in brokenness and called out to God. Can he boast?
7. The religious person who thought he had faith in God and was saved by faith and works. Did he go home justified? Of course not.

 

[mailmandan]

What this thread has shown me is that the doctrine of faith alone has brainwashed a great many people. When verses like those in James 2 appear they don't know what to do with them so they just revert to the standard faith only doctrine: "Well, I just know we're saved by faith alone, end of story." Or they redirect to something written by someone else because they have no ideas of their own on James 2.

Some have used mental gymnastics, and some have resorted to the ridiculous, like: "God doesn't decide who is of genuine faith and who is isn't."

Some have stated works are evidence of faith but they play no role in our salvation. I agree, works are evidence of our faith, but they play a very important role in our salvation.

Unfortunately, many have accepted the false doctrine that you believe, say the sinner's prayer and you're in the club. . .forever. But this simply isn't true.

I've been accused of not considering all of scripture, so let's look at some other scripture:

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."—1 Corinthians 1:18

We're saved—we're being saved—and we will be saved. Salvation's an ongoing process and works—or actions—for those afraid of the word works are just as necessary as faith.

There it is. You teach salvation by faith AND WORKS in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..)

There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get confused by works-salvationists.

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and not the basis or means by which we obtain or maintain salvation.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

There it is. You teach salvation by faith AND WORKS in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..)

There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get confused by works-salvationists.

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and not the basis or means by which we obtain or maintain salvation.

It isn’t actually contradictory

this

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if we don’t allow for the rest of scripture makes it seem like a contradiction with this

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a phrase or two from Paul selectively offered doesn’t omit the rest of scripture but leads to a fuller understanding when we allow it all in. James is acceptable as well as Paul John and Peter

once we believe we’re meant to be in this section hearing this

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

salvstion for man is always because of Gods grace and through faith faith however doesn’t omit works and doesn’t contradict doing the things God has said will save us it’s the means by which we do those things

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It isn’t actually contradictory

this

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if we don’t allow for the rest of scripture makes it seem like a contradiction with this

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a phrase or two from Paul selectively offered doesn’t omit the rest of scripture but leads to a fuller understanding when we allow it all in. James is acceptable as well as Paul John and Peter

once we believe we’re meant to be in this section hearing this

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

salvstion for man is always because of Gods grace and through faith faith however doesn’t omit works and doesn’t contradict doing the things God has said will save us it’s the means by which we do those things

You left romans 4 out my friend.

 

[pottersclay]

Eternal security is found in Christ Jesus...not the belief of him but the works and fulfillment he has done.
He will not leave one thing undone for all will be fulfilled.
The word of God is honored above his name it is up to us what we will do with his word.
James tells us to be a doer not just a hearer. We were given power and guidance from above to continue the ministry and prepare the way for our coming king.
Thinking you can score a touch down sitting on the bench is not even feasible.
We are to sow, water, and harvest the fields of the king.

 

[wattie]

This isn't another thread on faith v. works. It's a question to those who do believe in eternal security. I'd like to hear your comments.

Three scriptures in James 2 present a very serious problem for faith only. They are:

James 2:14

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"

James 2:17

"So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

James 2:22

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;"

What do you do with these scriptures?

Ignore them?
Pretend they don't exist?
Are the mistranslated or misunderstood?
Should James be removed from the canon?

I'd like to hear your explanations for why these scriptures don't mean what they apparently mean.

Here in James is the two kinds of faith shown:

Faith in receiving eternal life and THE faith, the response to already having received faith. Look at the examples in James of faith. These are all works of righteousness. They are responses to having already been converted. They are showing the fruit of them being converted by their actions.

Abraham was justified by works, but not for receiving eternal life. The example of him offering up his son happened in scripture a long while after he believed earlier.

But it isn't that they definitely and absolutely WILL do good works, but that their will be fruit from being eternally saved as the direct result of having the Holy Spirit in their soul

This fruit may not be visible to others. It's a work on the person's soul/spirit.
Main thing is the difference between saving faith and daily works. Most of James is about the daily faith and not initially receiving eternal life.

 

[Radius]

What works justify a believer? How often? Do unbelievers display these same works?

what do you mean "justify"? Do you mean what works justify a person's salvation? none. It is only through faith and the grace of God we are saved. As mentioned before, I believe works SHOW you are saved. They do not justify you nor save you. As for the second part of your question, unbelievers do good works every day! But they do not have saving faith and work in vain.