Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[eternally-gratefull]

The idea "once saved, always saved" is nauseatingly repulsive to me. I've seen too much. For those who find that acceptable, I wish you well.

So the idea that Christ completely saves those who he adopts is repulsive to you? The idea that when jesus said it is finished he meant it is repulsive to you? The idea that he who began a good work WILL COMPLETE it is repulsive to you. The idea that we can KNOW we have eternal life is repulsive to you? The idea that by one offering he has perfected forever those he is sanctifying is repulsive to you? The idea that whoever eats the bread from heaven will never hunger and thirst. Will never die, has eternal life and will be risen by Christ is repulsive to you?

I am saddened the word of God and his unwavering unending grace repulses you. I guess that means Christ repulses you. And for that I am sad

 

[Katia]

So the idea that Christ completely saves those who he adopts is repulsive to you? The idea that when jesus said it is finished he meant it is repulsive to you? The idea that he who began a good work WILL COMPLETE it is repulsive to you. The idea that we can KNOW we have eternal life is repulsive to you? The idea that by one offering he has perfected forever those he is sanctifying is repulsive to you? The idea that whoever eats the bread from heaven will never hunger and thirst. Will never die, has eternal life and will be risen by Christ is repulsive to you?

I am saddened the word of God and his unwavering unending grace repulses you. I guess that means Christ repulses you. And for that I am sad

I've seen it used too much to go to Church on Sunday, and drink and abuse others the rest of the week. I experienced that as a child. For me, once we are saved we must pray, study and work hard to change our lives to become more pleasing to God. And yes, it means a changed life for the rest of our lives, though we may fail often.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I've seen it used too much to go to Church on Sunday, and drink and abuse others the rest of the week. I experienced that as a child. For me, once we are saved we must pray, study and work hard to change our lives to become more pleasing to God. And yes, it means a changed life for the rest of our lives, though we may fail often.

People take Gods doctrines and distorts them all the time to sin against God and use Gods word as an excuse.

It does not make the truth of the doctrine in error.

Licentiousness and faith only is clearly rejected in scripture (james 2 and Jude) it does not make eternal security (some people call it OSAS) false.

I feel your pain. I am just as angry as those in the church who push obedience to much that the person feels he has no hope. and have seen many walk away from God because instead of coming alongside to help. they judged and outcast them.

sadly. Grace is a touchy subject.

on one hand you have people that claim its a license to sin

on the other hand, since grace teaches obedience. You have people calling it legalistic.

the truth is in the middle

 

[Katia]

People take Gods doctrines and distorts them all the time to sin against God and use Gods word as an excuse.

It does not make the truth of the doctrine in error.

Licentiousness and faith only is clearly rejected in scripture (james 2 and Jude) it does not make eternal security (some people call it OSAS) false.

I feel your pain. I am just as angry as those in the church who push obedience to much that the person feels he has no hope. and have seen many walk away from God because instead of coming alongside to help. they judged and outcast them.

sadly. Grace is a touchy subject.

on one hand you have people that claim its a license to sin

on the other hand, since grace teaches obedience. You have people calling it legalistic.

the truth is in the middle

I am not a religious hard liner, having studied both Christianity, Islam and Judaism. Those who rely solely on a Pastor for their instruction are deluding themselves. I have known Pastors who were warned in their schooling not to preach on certain subjects because that will empty the Pews.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am not a religious hard liner, having studied both Christianity, Islam and Judaism. Those who rely solely on a Pastor for their instruction are deluding themselves. I have known Pastors who were warned in their schooling not to preach on certain subjects because that will empty the Pews.

i agree, We are told to study and show ourselves approved and to test all spirit. We should never blindly follow anyone. We should question all things.

I also know God sent people out in twos. This one person pastor concept was not found in scripture. So I agree there also. It is to tempting.

 

[Icedaisey]

Paul Never Stopped Keeping the Law - Did You Know ...



The 12 apostles never stopped keeping the law

I am not a religious hard liner, having studied both Christianity, Islam and Judaism. Those who rely solely on a Pastor for their instruction are deluding themselves. I have known Pastors who were warned in their schooling not to preach on certain subjects because that will empty the Pews.

Sounds like Joel Osteen's mega church. Formerly a sports arena in Texas.

At the end of his televised service he'd site his own "sinners" prayer. After reciting along with Joel he'd tell viewers they, his church, believes that person is saved.
The irony at the close is adorable.
Get to a good Bible believing church....

Some who object to Eternal Security being just that believe it means someone then has a license to sin. Do anything you like, you're saved no matter what.

Others who know better than that know the scriptures. Those who are in Christ don't make a habit of sinning. Those who do that, like those previously mentioned, the Bible says are not only not in Christ but they've never known him.

An interesting counter to those who deny ES is the good news is to ask them,
if ES isn't true, remember Jesus says he gives us eternal life, what's the alternative?

And where in scripture does it say everything that God bestowed upon the repentant redeemed is vacated?

Should be interesting to read the answers.

 

[Radius]

So you would agree we begin in the spirit and then must perfect our salvation in the flesh? Paul says that is foolish.

No, I believe we are perfected by God's saving grace through faith, and not through the flesh.

But what do we say then with people who claim to have truly been saved...believed as much as you and I do today, believed for YEARS, but later had second thoughts and disavowed their faith. I think of someone like Matt Dillahunty from the Atheist Experience. Do you think they were never truly saved? Do you think God allows men to willfully abandon their faith and willfully reject Him after receiving the truth, who don't stay faithful until the very end?
Do you believe Satan cannot be granted permission from God to sift believers like wheat? Or to test their faith and let the chips fall where they may? Why else would he even ask God to do that to Job?

 

[Katia]

Paul Never Stopped Keeping the Law - Did You Know ...



The 12 apostles never stopped keeping the law

Sounds like Joel Osteen's mega church. Formerly a sports arena in Texas.

At the end of his televised service he'd site his own "sinners" prayer. After reciting along with Joel he'd tell viewers they, his church, believes that person is saved.
The irony at the close is adorable.
Get to a good Bible believing church....

Some who object to Eternal Security being just that believe it means someone then has a license to sin. Do anything you like, you're saved no matter what.

Others who know better than that know the scriptures. Those who are in Christ don't make a habit of sinning. Those who do that, like those previously mentioned, the Bible says are not only not in Christ but they've never known him.

An interesting counter to those who deny ES is the good news is to ask them,
if ES isn't true, remember Jesus says he gives us eternal life, what's the alternative?

And where in scripture does it say everything that God bestowed upon the repentant redeemed is vacated?

Should be interesting to read the answers.

I have a suspicion that Jesus came to instruct the disobedient Jews. Remember, Islam would not start for another 700 years. I think that Paul in the book of Acts took things in a direction that Jesus had not intended. For me, the rest of the NT is questionable until we get to the Book of Revelations.

It seems that observance of the law might not have been suspended, perhaps?

 

[Icedaisey]

I have a suspicion that Jesus came to instruct the disobedient Jews. Remember, Islam would not start for another 700 years. I think that Paul in the book of Acts took things in a direction that Jesus had not intended. For me, the rest of the NT is questionable until we get to the Book of Revelations.

It seems that observance of the law might not have been suspended, perhaps?

There were three categories of God's law in OT times. Ceremonial, Civil, and Moral.

All faithful reborn holy spirit filled Christians are under the law of Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, I believe we are perfected by God's saving grace through faith, and not through the flesh.

But what do we say then with people who claim to have truly been saved...believed as much as you and I do today, believed for YEARS, but later had second thoughts and disavowed their faith. I think of someone like Matt Dillahunty from the Atheist Experience. Do you think they were never truly saved? Do you think God allows men to willfully abandon their faith and willfully reject Him after receiving the truth, who don't stay faithful until the very end?
Do you believe Satan cannot be granted permission from God to sift believers like wheat? Or to test their faith and let the chips fall where they may? Why else would he even ask God to do that to Job?

What do we say?

We say what the apostle John said.

1 John 2:
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

What I do not understand is how people can think a person who has truly experienced Gods love and forgiveness and power in their Ives could think anyone would ever turn back unrepentant and reject Christ, and turn against him and declair he is not real. It would be impossible.

I have seen people lose faith. Because of something that happened, But never deny him. One him who Denys him while once claiming to be part of him, I just can not believe was ever of him

so when you say they believe as you and I. I do not believe that. They may have believed jesus was a man. And died on the cross. But they never had true faith in him.

 

[justpassinthrough]

James wasn't even discussing "saving faith". He was discussing that believers NEED TO demonstrate their faith to others so that others can see their faith.

So being justified has nothing to do with salvation.


You err not knowing the scriptures.



And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
Galatians 3:8-9





JPT

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have a suspicion that Jesus came to instruct the disobedient Jews. Remember, Islam would not start for another 700 years. I think that Paul in the book of Acts took things in a direction that Jesus had not intended. For me, the rest of the NT is questionable until we get to the Book of Revelations.

It seems that observance of the law might not have been suspended, perhaps?

How do you see the fact Peter called Paul’s writings scripture?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
James wasn't even discussing "saving faith". He was discussing that believers NEED TO demonstrate their faith to others so that others can see their faith.

So being justified has nothing to do with salvation.

Of course it does, but you are missing James' point. 2:18 proves that the ONLY WAY to show or demonstrate your faith is to have deeds or works.

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
Galatians 3:8-9JPT

OK, here are some verses that deal with being justified or approved in the eyes of others.

James’ justification is in the eyes of others.

Col 4:5 - Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity.

Rom 12:17 - Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.

Rom 14:18 - because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

Luke 16:15 - He said to them (pharisees), you are the ones who justifiy yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.

1 Pet 2:12 - Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Clearly Peter is emphasizing that believers who live out their faith, not being hypocrites, will have a positive effect upon unbelievers.

1 Pet 2:15 - For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people.

Notice that is our ACTIONS (deeds) that silence others. iow, they SEE what we do.

1 Thess 4:12 - so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.

Respect = approval = justification in the eyes of men

1 Tim 3:7 - He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

Again, respect, approval, justification in the eyes of men

2 Cor 8:21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.

If this verse doesn't convince you, you don't want to be.

iow, if you want to convince others that you are a Christian, or have faith, you'd better have deeds/works to demonstate your faith.

You can argue all you want, but what I've presented is solid truth. You can reject it, but you can't refute it.

 

[Radius]

What do we say?

We say what the apostle John said.

1 John 2:
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

What I do not understand is how people can think a person who has truly experienced Gods love and forgiveness and power in their Ives could think anyone would ever turn back unrepentant and reject Christ, and turn against him and declair he is not real. It would be impossible.

I have seen people lose faith. Because of something that happened, But never deny him. One him who Denys him while once claiming to be part of him, I just can not believe was ever of him

so when you say they believe as you and I. I do not believe that. They may have believed jesus was a man. And died on the cross. But they never had true faith in him.

I too find it impossible to ever turn your back on Jesus.

But this guy Matt Dillahunty, (not sure you know who I'm talking about or not) gets very defensive when people challenge him on his once-true salvation. Callers will call in to his show and say the same thing you just did (you weren't really saved to begin with) but he gives compelling reasons that he indeed was saved--even to the point of studying to be a minister. He was raised in a southern Baptist church.

He claims everything we do, but when examining the Bible found some things in there that he couldn't agree with (namely slavery and OT stuff), he thought God was an "immoral thug" then over-thought the whole thing and thought his way out of Christianity. He is too smart for his own good. He is a smart guy, and a great debater and interlocutor. But these are just some of the things he's mentioned and I'm just relaying to you what I've heard him say himself.

 

[Katia]

How do you see the fact Peter called Paul’s writings scripture?

If that works for you, fine. Personally, I am doubtful about Paul.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I too find it impossible to ever turn your back on Jesus.

But this guy Matt Dillahunty, (not sure you know who I'm talking about or not) gets very defensive when people challenge him on his once-true salvation. Callers will call in to his show and say the same thing you just did (you weren't really saved to begin with) but he gives compelling reasons that he indeed was saved--even to the point of studying to be a minister. He was raised in a southern Baptist church.

He claims everything we do, but when examining the Bible found some things in there that he couldn't agree with (namely slavery and OT stuff), he thought God was an "immoral thug" then over-thought the whole thing and thought his way out of Christianity. He is too smart for his own good. He is a smart guy, and a great debater and interlocutor. But these are just some of the things he's mentioned and I'm just relaying to you what I've heard him say himself.

I know many who claim they were saved but including some pastors. If you ask me they never knew God you Napier of their claims. You don’t just revert back to your old ways as scripture says a dog returns to his Vomit. Well of course he does because he is still A dog. He was never converted to a new creature

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If that works for you, fine. Personally, I am doubtful about Paul.

If I was doubtful about Paul I would have to throw doubt on all of scripture

Paul does not contradict any aspect of scripture. People just Misinterpret Paul and other parts of scripture in my view

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Personally, I am doubtful about Paul.

Precious friend, then you WILL have a problem "following THE PATTERN" That God Gave us, Today, Under HIS PURE GRACE And MERCY, will you not?:

1Ti_1:16 "Howbeit for this cause I obtained Mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on HIM to life everlasting."

According to what? The gospel of the kingdom the TWELVE preached, OR:

The Gospel of GRACE, Paul preached?:
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to MY gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, ACCORDING TO The Revelation Of The Mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Did not Paul, Inspired By God, say:
1Co_11:1 "Be ye followers of ME, even as I also am of Christ."?

So, those of us who FOLLOW Paul, are NOT "following God"?:
Eph_5:1 "Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;"

(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship, Today?)

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!

 

[FreeGrace2]

I too find it impossible to ever turn your back on Jesus.

But this guy Matt Dillahunty, (not sure you know who I'm talking about or not) gets very defensive when people challenge him on his once-true salvation. Callers will call in to his show and say the same thing you just did (you weren't really saved to begin with) but he gives compelling reasons that he indeed was saved--even to the point of studying to be a minister. He was raised in a southern Baptist church.

He claims everything we do, but when examining the Bible found some things in there that he couldn't agree with (namely slavery and OT stuff), he thought God was an "immoral thug" then over-thought the whole thing and thought his way out of Christianity. He is too smart for his own good. He is a smart guy, and a great debater and interlocutor. But these are just some of the things he's mentioned and I'm just relaying to you what I've heard him say himself.

The only relevant question regarding this guy is this:

When he did put his trust/faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, was he given and did he possess eternal life? John 5:24

What does Jesus say about recipients of eternal life? John 10:28

 

[Katia]

Precious friend, then you WILL have a problem "following THE PATTERN" That God Gave us, Today, Under HIS PURE GRACE And MERCY, will you not?:

1Ti_1:16 "Howbeit for this cause I obtained Mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on HIM to life everlasting."

According to what? The gospel of the kingdom the TWELVE preached, OR:

The Gospel of GRACE, Paul preached?:
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to MY gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, ACCORDING TO The Revelation Of The Mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Did not Paul, Inspired By God, say:
1Co_11:1 "Be ye followers of ME, even as I also am of Christ."?

So, those of us who FOLLOW Paul, are NOT "following God"?:
Eph_5:1 "Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;"

(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship, Today?)

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!

This is just my opinion, and I am not a graduate of any clergy institution. The Bible is not such a large book. I was not raised with any religion, and my upbringing left me extremely angry. I still look back and wonder why I did not murder or go to prison, though I have no criminal record. Looking back God was guiding me and protecting me when I was not aware.

Because of a little pamphlet I had read, I sat down and read the entire Bible in two week ends. When I finished the OT, I was impressed with the mercy of God time and again. It made me wonder why people said that God was an angry, vengeful God. Had we read the same book? In the four Gospels I felt as if I was beginning to know Jesus. He was someone I would follow.

In the book of Acts, things changed. I still struggle with the fate of Ananias and Sephirah. The rest of the NT seemed to lack the same glory. The Book of Revelation seemed related to the OT. but not easy to understand.

There are things about me that I will not reveal. God loves me but most of his followers....