How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[DavidTree]

Recall, we went over this in previous posts.

The terms "FIRST advent/coming" and "SECOND advent/coming" are not terms found in Scripture, but are labels men have expressed to help others distinguish what it is they are speaking ABOUT.

But those terms themselves you will not find anywhere in Scripture. [if you wanna talk strictly "biblical" vs. "unbiblical"]

True - that the words First and Second are not immediately attached to the word 'Coming'.

TRUTH - the word First is directly attached to His First Coming to earth for our Salvation.

Then He said to the disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. People will tell you, ‘Look, there He is!’ or ‘Look, here He is!’ Do not go out or chase after them.
For just as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other, so will be the Son of Man in His day.
But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

Therefore, according to our Lord's own words - He established for us, in the Gospels and in the Prophets a First and Second Coming.

There are no other of 'His Comings' to us beside these TWO.

 

[ewq1938]

Okay, so what I hear you saying is that, the mortals of the nations who ENTER the 1000 years will first off be "spayed and neutered,"

No, I didn't say that did I? Please don't misrepresent me.

and then, despite never having come to faith in Christ BEFORE His "Return," are still Blessed to live verrrrrrry long lives so that they can be the persons referred to at the END of the 1000 years who Satan is released out of his prison to go out to Deceive... the number of whom is as the sand of the sea (i.e. tons of ppl).

God has decided to let them live. It wasn't a decision I made so stop making it seem like I'm responsible for that.

Have I grasped your viewpoint somewhat accurately?

No, you misrepresent it which is very dishonest.

 

[ewq1938]

Recall, we went over this in previous posts.

The terms "FIRST advent/coming" and "SECOND advent/coming" are not terms found in Scripture, but are labels men have expressed to help others distinguish what it is they are speaking ABOUT.

But those terms themselves you will not find anywhere in Scripture. [if you wanna talk strictly "biblical" vs. "unbiblical"]

You are, again, wrong. Those terms are very biblical.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The second coming means a second physical arrival of Jesus Christ. Appearing a "second time" and "coming again" both support this second physical arrival of Jesus Christ.

This proves that the terms "first advent" and "second advent" or "first coming" and "second coming" are biblically based.

 

[DavidTree]

You are, again, wrong. Those terms are very biblical.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The second coming means a second physical arrival of Jesus Christ. Appearing a "second time" and "coming again" both support this second physical arrival of Jesus Christ.

This proves that the terms "first advent" and "second advent" or "first coming" and "second coming" are biblically based.

Thank you for this, i knew of this but could not pinpoint the scriptures - again i Thank You

 

[DavidTree]

That's funny, because that's the very thing I see you doing (not the "pre-tribbers"):





Scripture doesn't lie.


I do see one person trying to speak out of both sides of his mouth, though...

...do you enjoying speaking "with forked tongue" often?




What you've said is that the "2W' are indeed "resurrected" from the dead... and then (according to your EQUATING of these terms) they are then "RAPTURED [according to you] up to Heaven"... which makes (according to your viewpoint, expressed here) that to be TWO "RESURRECTIONS" and TWO "RAPTURES" (ONE for the "2W" at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" and the OTHER at "His Second Coming," which you yourself are saying is when "THE FIRST AND ONLY RESURRECTION" takes place... except, not, according to what you just said... )

lol no you don't - your lack is not my lack

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

Therefore, according to our Lord's own words - He established for us, in the Gospels and in the Prophets a First and Second Coming.

There are no other of 'His Comings' to us beside these TWO.

So you're saying that His "SUFFERING" (Suffering Servant - Acts 3:18, 13, 26; and His "rejection" / "be CUT OFF") was part of (what men have labeled) His "FIRST advent"... I've stated in past posts that I essentially AGREE with that (I'm not against labels that help ppl understand what it is we're talking ABOUT, with others)...




But then... there's this...

...what would you "label" the following as ("FIRST advent/coming" [as "Suffering Servant"] or "SECOND advent/coming"... or what??):



John 16 -

16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

The Disciples' Grief will Turn to Joy

17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? 18 They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith. 19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me? 20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. 21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. 22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.




[then... on the day of His Resurrection...]


Luke 24 -

33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them, 34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. 35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.

Jesus Appears to the Disciples

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not FOR JOY, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [corresponding ^ ...]

John 20 -

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week [/weeks - plural], when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

[...]

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

 

[GaryA]

apples and oranges
gnats and camels

the 'major' is defined in the forest; the 'minor' is defined in the trees

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

God has decided to let them live. It wasn't a decision I made so stop making it seem like I'm responsible for that.

WHERE in my post did I say *YOU* were responsible for it??

I didn't.

I was simply trying to read back to you what I perceived is the way YOU perceive the 1000 years, and YOUR VIEW as to who will ENTER it. Since that is what I ASKED.

If you care to correct my perception of your viewpoint, please do so. I'm listening.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Thank you for this, i knew of this but could not pinpoint the scriptures - again i Thank You

I covered that passage in past posts.

Here's a brief excerpt:


[quoting from old post]


re: Heb9:28 - [excerpt] - "ALL TEN TIMES that "G3708 - APPEAR [passive]" occurs (re: Jesus), ALL TEN of them refer to the time-period FOLLOWING His Resurrection! "


...and quoting from that Post #607 (re: Heb9:28):

"Show me anywhere in Scripture that the "G3708 - APPEAR [passive]" (re: Him) speaks of anything BEFORE His DEATH/CROSS...

"It doesn't. ALL TEN TIMES that "G3708 - APPEAR [passive]" occurs (re: Jesus), ALL TEN of them refer to the time-period FOLLOWING His Resurrection! "



...and quoting further from Post #1106 (also pg 56 of [different thread] ) that I'd also mentioned:

"Well, for one thing... in each of those TEN REFERENCES (used re: Jesus) to the word "APPEAR [passive - G3708]" (as is used in Heb9:28)...

"... ALL TEN of them refer to what took place FOLLOWING His resurrection (NONE refer to His earthly ministry BEFORE His death, what we commonly call His "FIRST ADVENT"<--NONE of them refer to that)... and IN NONE OF THOSE passages does it refer to anything like "OPENLY MANIFEST TO/BEFORE ALL," but rather, ONLY to those carefully chosen witnesses... (Acts 10:41)..."




... and in FIVE of those TEN references, where the "G3708 [passive] APPEAR" is used (re: Jesus) were FROM HIS/JESUS' POSITION UP IN HEAVEN (to Paul, on the road to Damascus... who himself is a "TYPE" of the future "144,000")


[end quoting from old posts]


____________


Point being, if you're going to "convince" me of your viewpoint, this passage certainly isn't "convincing" me of it (according to the way in which you are perceiving the verse )

 

[ewq1938]

I was simply trying to read back to you what I perceived is the way YOU perceive the 1000 years, and YOUR VIEW as to who will ENTER it. Since that is what I ASKED.

I answered that already.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I answered that already.

And I was just reiterating what I said (to your accusation of me):


ewq1938 said:
God has decided to let them live. It wasn't a decision I made so stop making it seem like I'm responsible for that.



TDW said: WHERE in my post did I say *YOU* were responsible for it??

I didn't.






[it's perfectly fine if you do not care to clarify further, to correct my perception of your viewpoint]

 

[Ahwatukee]

No scripture says any babies are born during 1000 years.

The survivors of the second coming will be ruled over by a rod of iron for 1000 years. Again, nothing about babies being born.

Seeing that the majority of the earth's population will have been decimated during the time of God's wrath, people will indeed repopulate the earth during the thousand years. Those great tribulation saints who make it through the entire wrath of God, will enter into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies and will repopulate the earth. We have other scriptures which reveal some of the characteristics of the millennial kingdom demonstrating that there will be little children:

==============================================================================
The wolf will live with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the goat; the calf and young lion and fatling will be together, and a little child will lead them.

The cow will graze with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

The infant will play by the cobra’s den, and the toddler will reach into the viper’s nest.

They will neither harm nor destroy on all My holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the sea is full of water.
=========================================================================================

So to recap, yes, there will be children born during the thousand years.

 

[Ruby123]

Seeing that the majority of the earth's population will have been decimated during the time of God's wrath, people will indeed repopulate the earth during the thousand years. Those great tribulation saints who make it through the entire wrath of God, will enter into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies and will repopulate the earth. We have other scriptures which reveal some of the characteristics of the millennial kingdom demonstrating that there will be little children:

==============================================================================
The wolf will live with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the goat; the calf and young lion and fatling will be together, and a little child will lead them.

The cow will graze with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

The infant will play by the cobra’s den, and the toddler will reach into the viper’s nest.

They will neither harm nor destroy on all My holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the sea is full of water.
=========================================================================================

So to recap, yes, there will be children born during the thousand years.

What about those raptured, do they marry and populate again?

 

[GaryA]

What about those raptured, do they marry and populate again?

Matthew 22:

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

 

[cv5]

Could someone give me a brief and simple summary of the different Tribulation theories and why it's such a hot topic in the U.S ? Just the basics rather than opinions. We don't seem to cover that in the UK denominations that I've been involved with, i've asked them about it but they don't seem to have heard of "pre-trib" ect. I tried reading the posts but it hasn't really clarified it for me, i guess because i'm unclear about the different basic views ?

Typing on my phone so I cannot fulfill your request fully, but to make my point:

The pre-trib rapture is indeed the correct teaching. One must understand the pertinent Scriptures in light of the Jewish wedding ritual. After that....you will never be moved. BTW...there are several types and hints of the rapture in the OT.

Just read everything that TheDivineWatermark is posting on the topic. Give it time and prayer....you will pick it up.

Frankly I have no idea why the alternative views are still around. The alternatives are always lacking or faulty in some way. Zero loose ends with the pre-trib rapture....every Scripture is buttoned down beautifully with no conflicts or strays.

 

[Ahwatukee]

What about those raptured, do they marry and populate again?

Hi there, Ruby!

No. Both the resurrected and those who are alive, will be in their immortal and glorified bodies. In fact a Sadducee came asked Jesus the same question and His response was that those who take part in the resurrection neither marry nor are given in marriage, but will be like the angels in heaven. Once we take on our immortal and glorified bodies, we no longer marry and have children. However, those great tribulation saints who make it through the entire wrath of God until Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, will still be in their mortal bodies and along with Israel will repopulate the earth.

 

[cv5]

That is plainly nonsensical. "No rapture" in the key passage which reveals the Resurrection/Rapture! Amazing how people will try to twist the Scriptures to fit their man-made theologies.

There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between the Resurrection/Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ. In the first appearance Christ comes FOR His saints. But at the Second Coming Christ comes to earth WITH His saints and angels. In between we have the Marriage of the Lamb, which means that one aspect of the Rapture is the Divine Bridegroom coming for His Bride (the Church). But since the Bride must be spotless, the saints are perfected and glorified at the Rapture (1 John 3:1-3 and other passages).

The truth is that most Christians do not really understand the purpose of the Resurrection/Rapture. Instead we find attacks on Darby, Scofield, Walvoord, Lindsey, etc. as though these men had no understanding of the Scriptures. But whenever a Bible doctrine is under attack, it behooves every person to carefully study the Scriptures for themselves, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Bible shows us that the Resurrection/Rapture is the culmination of salvation, hence "the Blessed Hope" of the saints.

"Christ comes FOR His saints. But at the Second Coming Christ comes to earth WITH His saints"

Yes.
Two different times.
Two different locations.
Two different audiences.
Two different purposes.

I really cannot fathom how people can fail to recognize these distinctions.

 

[rayzor]

"Christ comes FOR His saints. But at the Second Coming Christ comes to earth WITH His saints"

Yes.
Two different times.
Two different locations.
Two different audiences.
Two different purposes.

I really cannot fathom how people can fail to recognize these distinctions.

Let yourself self b them so you can judge them..perhaps not in the now but when the time is right ask god...know ye not that we will judge the angles...Some of us r the bad guys and simply argue thinking they have no hope from Christ..help them not 2 despise them self's

 

[Nehemiah6]

I really cannot fathom how people can fail to recognize these distinctions.

Wilful blindness. Some people think it is just an amusing game to oppose Bible truth.