How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church
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That's funny, because that's the very thing I see you doing (not the "pre-tribbers"):
Scripture doesn't lie.
I do see one person trying to speak out of both sides of his mouth, though...
...do you enjoying speaking "with forked tongue" often?
What you've said is that the "2W' are indeed "resurrected" from the dead... and then (according to your EQUATING of these terms) they are then "RAPTURED [according to you] up to Heaven"... which makes (according to your viewpoint, expressed here) that to be TWO "RESURRECTIONS" and TWO "RAPTURES" (ONE for the "2W" at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" and the OTHER at "His Second Coming," which you yourself are saying is when "THE FIRST AND ONLY RESURRECTION" takes place... except, not, according to what you just said... )
Scripture doesn't lie.
I do see one person trying to speak out of both sides of his mouth, though...
...do you enjoying speaking "with forked tongue" often?
What you've said is that the "2W' are indeed "resurrected" from the dead... and then (according to your EQUATING of these terms) they are then "RAPTURED [according to you] up to Heaven"... which makes (according to your viewpoint, expressed here) that to be TWO "RESURRECTIONS" and TWO "RAPTURES" (ONE for the "2W" at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" and the OTHER at "His Second Coming," which you yourself are saying is when "THE FIRST AND ONLY RESURRECTION" takes place... except, not, according to what you just said...
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1Th1:10 says, "the One delivering us out-from THE WRATH COMING"... and whereas this text does NOT specify "whose" wrath, YOUR viewpoint SAYS IT DOES.
It simply states "[delivering us out-from] THE WRATH COMING".
(obviously God knows who-all's "wrath" is INVOLVED in that This text, and the other in 1Th, are NOT LIMITING it to be only "God's" as you suggest)
____________
[for the readers: I disagree that ONLY the "7 VIALS" are God's wrath... rather, of THEM it is said, "the seven LAST plagues; for IN THEM the wrath of God IS COMPLETED"... not "is STARTED AND COMPLETED"! Additionally, the phrase in Rev11:18 can legit be translated "and thy wrath CAME" especially because the previous verse states, "because YOU HAVE TAKEN [PERFECT INDICATIVE] Your great power"... and Greek grammarians say that all verbs following in the sentence must take on the same sense...https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/11-17.htm , https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/11-18.htm ; So I DISAGREE that the verb "came" in v.18 is saying (of His "wrath" that it) "is JUST NOW ARRIVING at the "7th Trumpet" sounding. No.]
It simply states "[delivering us out-from] THE WRATH COMING".
(obviously God knows who-all's "wrath" is INVOLVED in that
This text, and the other in 1Th, are NOT LIMITING it to be only "God's" as you suggest)____________
[for the readers: I disagree that ONLY the "7 VIALS" are God's wrath... rather, of THEM it is said, "the seven LAST plagues; for IN THEM the wrath of God IS COMPLETED"... not "is STARTED AND COMPLETED"! Additionally, the phrase in Rev11:18 can legit be translated "and thy wrath CAME" especially because the previous verse states, "because YOU HAVE TAKEN [PERFECT INDICATIVE] Your great power"... and Greek grammarians say that all verbs following in the sentence must take on the same sense...https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/11-17.htm , https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/11-18.htm ; So I DISAGREE that the verb "came" in v.18 is saying (of His "wrath" that it) "is JUST NOW ARRIVING at the "7th Trumpet" sounding. No.]
And the wrath of God is only upon the ungodly, the wicked earth dwellers who recieve the Mark.
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sorry I missed your post...
see the following:
[quoting from BlueLetterBible]
"Concordance Results Shown Using the KJV
Strong's Number G4714 matches the Greek στάσις (stasis),
which occurs 23 times in 23 verses in the LXX Greek.
View NT results in the TR Greek concordance " [<--9x in the NT]
[end quoting]
-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g4714/kjv/lxx/0-1/#lexResults
see the following:
[quoting from BlueLetterBible]
"Concordance Results Shown Using the KJV
Strong's Number G4714 matches the Greek στάσις (stasis),
which occurs 23 times in 23 verses in the LXX Greek.
View NT results in the TR Greek concordance " [<--9x in the NT]
[end quoting]
-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g4714/kjv/lxx/0-1/#lexResults
The same could be said of you, for incorrectly EQUATING the phrases "the moon INTO BLOOD / BECAME AS BLOOD" (Rev6 / Joel2:31) and "the moon SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT" (Matt24:29-31)...
which are completely DISTINCT "appearance/descriptions" of the moon...
(not to mention the TIMING clues per each which are also entirely distinct:
the one being "BEFORE the GREAT"
and the other being "AFTER [the 'GREAT'... per vv.15,21 in that CONTEXT]...
...but you've at least been CONSISTENT in totally disregarding the timing and chronology clues IN THE TEXTS, and have simply desired to REPEAT the falsehood of man claiming that the "SEALS , TRUMPETS, and VIALS" are NOT "SEQUENTIAL". Do as you wish, DT!)
which are completely DISTINCT "appearance/descriptions" of the moon...
(not to mention the TIMING clues per each which are also entirely distinct:
the one being "BEFORE the GREAT"
and the other being "AFTER [the 'GREAT'... per vv.15,21 in that CONTEXT]...
...but you've at least been CONSISTENT in totally disregarding the timing and chronology clues IN THE TEXTS, and have simply desired to REPEAT the falsehood of man claiming that the "SEALS , TRUMPETS, and VIALS" are NOT "SEQUENTIAL". Do as you wish, DT!)
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"Pre-tribbers" do not disagree that these take place at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19);
...but what we WOULD disagree with, is that "His Second Coming" (Rev19) is the same as "the GWTj" setting... but it is NOT the same moment / setting as "the GWTj" (Rev20:11-15).
Which means "damnation for the wicked" at the time of "His Second Coming" (Rev19) applies/pertains only to the "LIVING [STILL-ALIVE]" wicked at that time... [tho not "alive" for long, at that point! ] ...not applying to the unsaved-dead (of all times) who will not be "delivered up" to stand before God at the GWTj until 1000 years later (20:13, for example).
Agree??
...but what we WOULD disagree with, is that "His Second Coming" (Rev19) is the same as "the GWTj" setting... but it is NOT the same moment / setting as "the GWTj" (Rev20:11-15).
Which means "damnation for the wicked" at the time of "His Second Coming" (Rev19) applies/pertains only to the "LIVING [STILL-ALIVE]" wicked at that time... [tho not "alive" for long, at that point!
] ...not applying to the unsaved-dead (of all times) who will not be "delivered up" to stand before God at the GWTj until 1000 years later (20:13, for example).Agree??
After reading this, i feel even more sorry for you. Please heed the advice from God to you(all of us).
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6
I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book . Rev 22
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6
I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book . Rev 22
"the moon INTO BLOOD / BECAME AS BLOOD" (Rev6 / Joel2:31) is said to occur "BEFORE the GREAT" (NOT SO regarding "the moon SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT"--Matt24:29-31, which is "AFTER" the "GREAT" aspect! per the CONTEXT of Matt24:15,21 and following)...
This means that the "SEALS" / aka "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" take place within the FIRST HALF of the "7 year" period, and even likely within the first 1/4 of those 7 years (with the TRUMPETS and the VIALS following SEQUENTIALLY, from those Seals).
MID-trib (i.e. MID-point of the "7 yrs") is at the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth" (when Rev12:12 and 2Th2:4 and Rev13:5-7/Dan7:20-25 occur, etc...)... and so the SEALS all PRECEDE those Trumpets (meaning, the SEALS [including the 6th] precede ALL 7 of the Trumpets... the first FOUR Trumpets being IN THE FIRST HALF also).
This means that the "SEALS" / aka "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" take place within the FIRST HALF of the "7 year" period, and even likely within the first 1/4 of those 7 years (with the TRUMPETS and the VIALS following SEQUENTIALLY, from those Seals).
MID-trib (i.e. MID-point of the "7 yrs") is at the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth" (when Rev12:12 and 2Th2:4 and Rev13:5-7/Dan7:20-25 occur, etc...)... and so the SEALS all PRECEDE those Trumpets (meaning, the SEALS [including the 6th] precede ALL 7 of the Trumpets... the first FOUR Trumpets being IN THE FIRST HALF also).
Love your avatar(pic). Are you an Archer?
TRUE STORY = i began shooting a bow when i was 14. When compounds started coming out in the late 1970s. In 1982 i was shooting a 85lb Martin Cougar Magnum hunting bow, 2 wheel compound with 50% let off. i was pretty acccurate with my bow back then.
So, one day at the Archery Range a Target Shooter with a 45lb compound bow with all the high end stabilizers and expensive rest and sights was shooting next to me. We began talking and the person challenged me to a one round (three arrows) shootout.
i agreed and shot first - Dead Center Bullseye.
The Target shooter shot next and her arrow was very close to the center but not 'dead center' as my first shot.
OK, i ready myself for my second shot, but before i did i said to her this: "This shot will be a Robin Hood - now watch!"
i focused, drew back, steadied my aim, relaxed and let the string pull from my fingers - my arrow flew with great accuracy and speed.
WHACK -the unmistakable sound of an Aluminum Arrow directly hitting another Aluminum Arrow echoed throughout the indoor Range.
Indeed it was an extremely rare and Genuine Robin Hood Shot, where my first 'Dead Center Arrow' was now penetrated into its shaft from my second 'Dead Center Arrow' - Game over as the Pro Target Archer could not match my shot.
Just for you to understand the level of difficulty this was = This is in 1982, compound bows were only just becoming popular and were in their 'unrefined development stage'. They were nothing close to the bows on the market today.
Furthermore i was shooting with my fingers - the Target Archer was shooting with a Pro Mechanical Release.
i was shooting heavy, thick walled Hunting Grade arrows, Easton 2219 whereas the Target Archer was shooting Higher Grade Pro Level Target Arrows, at only 45lb draw weight on an advanced Compound Target Bow with mechanical release aid.
i will always remember that day my friend.
i tell you this TRUE ACCOUNT for this reason - God's Word is a Dead Center Robin Hood Shot = EVERYTIME.
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6
This is how we will approach this Truth Seeking Challenge
#1. In His LOVE - By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” John 13:35
#2. Proverbs 30: 5-6 - We do not add our words to God's and we do not take away from what Scripture declares.
#3. We must focus on the Center of the Target = His TRUTH for Us = "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth." John 17:17
TRUE STORY = i began shooting a bow when i was 14. When compounds started coming out in the late 1970s. In 1982 i was shooting a 85lb Martin Cougar Magnum hunting bow, 2 wheel compound with 50% let off. i was pretty acccurate with my bow back then.
So, one day at the Archery Range a Target Shooter with a 45lb compound bow with all the high end stabilizers and expensive rest and sights was shooting next to me. We began talking and the person challenged me to a one round (three arrows) shootout.
i agreed and shot first - Dead Center Bullseye.
The Target shooter shot next and her arrow was very close to the center but not 'dead center' as my first shot.
OK, i ready myself for my second shot, but before i did i said to her this: "This shot will be a Robin Hood - now watch!"
i focused, drew back, steadied my aim, relaxed and let the string pull from my fingers - my arrow flew with great accuracy and speed.
WHACK -the unmistakable sound of an Aluminum Arrow directly hitting another Aluminum Arrow echoed throughout the indoor Range.
Indeed it was an extremely rare and Genuine Robin Hood Shot, where my first 'Dead Center Arrow' was now penetrated into its shaft from my second 'Dead Center Arrow' - Game over as the Pro Target Archer could not match my shot.
Just for you to understand the level of difficulty this was = This is in 1982, compound bows were only just becoming popular and were in their 'unrefined development stage'. They were nothing close to the bows on the market today.
Furthermore i was shooting with my fingers - the Target Archer was shooting with a Pro Mechanical Release.
i was shooting heavy, thick walled Hunting Grade arrows, Easton 2219 whereas the Target Archer was shooting Higher Grade Pro Level Target Arrows, at only 45lb draw weight on an advanced Compound Target Bow with mechanical release aid.
i will always remember that day my friend.
i tell you this TRUE ACCOUNT for this reason - God's Word is a Dead Center Robin Hood Shot = EVERYTIME.
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6
This is how we will approach this Truth Seeking Challenge
#1. In His LOVE - By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” John 13:35
#2. Proverbs 30: 5-6 - We do not add our words to God's and we do not take away from what Scripture declares.
#3. We must focus on the Center of the Target = His TRUTH for Us = "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth." John 17:17
Not say it but the beliefs expressed shows Christ leaving heaven and coming to the Earth two times which isn't biblical. And, no, touching ground is not needed for a "coming" to happen because he didn't touch ground for awhile at his first coming (babies aren't walking on ground for a long time) and even second coming he is not touching the ground as he is fighting from air on a symbolic horse. Only when the second coming is finished will he stand on ground and sit on a throne.
Pretrib: two comings of Christ, second coming is rapture and actual second coming is an unbiblical third coming. Pretrib is not found in the bible at all.
Posttrib: One coming of Christ from heaven to above the ground of Earth after the great trib has ended, just as bible shows.
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Okay, so what I hear you saying is that, the mortals of the nations who ENTER the 1000 years will first off be "spayed and neutered," and then, despite never having come to faith in Christ BEFORE His "Return," are still Blessed to live verrrrrrry long lives so that they can be the persons referred to at the END of the 1000 years who Satan is released out of his prison to go out to Deceive... the number of whom is as the sand of the sea (i.e. tons of ppl).
Have I grasped your viewpoint somewhat accurately?
Have I grasped your viewpoint somewhat accurately?
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Recall, we went over this in previous posts.
The terms "FIRST advent/coming" and "SECOND advent/coming" are not terms found in Scripture, but are labels men have expressed to help others distinguish what it is they are speaking ABOUT.
But those terms themselves you will not find anywhere in Scripture. [if you wanna talk strictly "biblical" vs. "unbiblical"]
The terms "FIRST advent/coming" and "SECOND advent/coming" are not terms found in Scripture, but are labels men have expressed to help others distinguish what it is they are speaking ABOUT.
But those terms themselves you will not find anywhere in Scripture. [if you wanna talk strictly "biblical" vs. "unbiblical"]
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--Micah 5:2 speaks of the COMING FORTH at Bethlehem,
--and Zechariah 9:9 speaks of the COMING UNTO Jerusalem.
...which one of these two passages speak of what men label as the "FIRST advent"?
...or do both of these "COME" fall under that label?
...did one of these two "COME" take place sequentially prior to the other? (like, say, by about THIRTY YEARS??)
...would that automatically mean that any further "COME" words applying to Jesus (after the Zech9:9 / Lk19:41-44 thing) meant there was a "THIRD COME" (or "FOURTH" and so on)?? and should we label these as men have labeled (what is commonly called) His "FIRST advent" and His "SECOND advent"... instead of labeling it these two... something else?
--and Zechariah 9:9 speaks of the COMING UNTO Jerusalem.
...which one of these two passages speak of what men label as the "FIRST advent"?
...or do both of these "COME" fall under that label?
...did one of these two "COME" take place sequentially prior to the other? (like, say, by about THIRTY YEARS??)
...would that automatically mean that any further "COME" words applying to Jesus (after the Zech9:9 / Lk19:41-44 thing) meant there was a "THIRD COME" (or "FOURTH" and so on)?? and should we label these as men have labeled (what is commonly called) His "FIRST advent" and His "SECOND advent"... instead of labeling it these two... something else?
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