How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[Lucy-Pevensie]

See, i know you love me in Christ - you are willing to share, in love, with Scripture alone - Amen

Here is the entire passage connected to the church in Philadelphia - Revelation 7-13
To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:

These are the words of the One who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What He opens no one can shut, and what He shuts no one can open.
I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door, which no one can shut. For you have only a little strength, yet you have kept My word and have not denied My name. Look at those who belong to the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews but are liars instead. I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and they will know that I love you.
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
The one who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

This is 100% TRUTH and is Beautiful . No pre-trib rapture here but this is what was spoken in 1 Thess ch 4 and in Matt 24

I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one. John 17

Have you noticed it's a conditional promise? (The part you bolded)

"Because you have done this I will do that"

It calls for perseverance.

It doesn't say a thing about sweeping this group of Christians away to heaven.
It sounds more like Jesus will help them through the time of testing on earth.

 

[DavidTree]

[


Have you noticed it's a conditional promise? (The part you bolded)

"Because you have done this I will do that"

It calls for perseverance.

It doesn't say a thing about sweeping this group of Christians away to heaven.
It sounds more like Jesus will help them through the time of testing on earth.

Yes, my Sister in the Holy Spirit.
These will be the Saints spoken of in 1 Thessalonians ch 4 who are kept alive when He Returns for the First Resurrection.

Scripture cannot lie.

 

[cv5]

And yet - no pre-tribber can find one and post a Scripture that declares the Body of Christ is pre-trib raptured.

*** IMPORTATNT *** = Tribulation is not God's Wrath as some have confused them. ALL His Children are delivered from His wrath.

No wrath for the Bride, the Church, His Body, those justified by His blood. Wrath is reserved for the hard and impenitent, the children of wrath, the sons of disobedience. The Church does not suffer the tribulation judgment WRATH upon the earth (see Rev excerpts below). Or judgement of eternal wrath at the GWT.

You see, one needs to compare Scripture with Scripture, out of which sound doctrine is developed.

Rom 2:5
But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

Rom 5:9
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Eph 2:3
among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Eph 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Col 3:6
Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,

1Th 1:10
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1Th 5:9
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Heb 4:3
For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,' ”[fn]
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

2 Pet 2:9
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

============================================================================================================
============================================================================================================
Here is the aforementioned wrath of the Lamb and God. This particular wrath is upon the EARTH DWELLERS.
10 X wrath of God and 1X wrath of the Lamb. 1X the wrath of the devil.

Rev 6:16
and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

Rev 6:17
“For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Rev 11:18
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Rev 12:12
“Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Rev 14:10
“he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Rev 14:19
So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev 15:1
Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.

Rev 15:7
Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.

Rev 16:1
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls[fn] of the wrath of God on the earth.”

Rev 16:19
Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

Rev 18:3
“For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.”

Rev 19:15
Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[fn] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[cv5]

Have you noticed it's a conditional promise? (The part you bolded)

"Because you have done this I will do that"

It calls for perseverance.

It doesn't say a thing about sweeping this group of Christians away to heaven.
It sounds more like Jesus will help them through the time of testing on earth.

2 Pet 2:9
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

 

[DavidTree]

Have you noticed it's a conditional promise? (The part you bolded)

"Because you have done this I will do that"

It calls for perseverance.

It doesn't say a thing about sweeping this group of Christians away to heaven.
It sounds more like Jesus will help them through the time of testing on earth.

It is a conditional special blessing because they kept His Word and His Love for God and for one another.

If, not a sparrow falls to the ground without our Father knowing it - then He already knows those who will be alive and remain unto His Coming. These are the Saints spoken of in 1 Thessalonians ch 4 and Revelation 3:10

 

[CS1]

i do not mind the red X - what is important is that you and i get to know one another and love one another - this is important to God and the whole Body.

Red X is a good thing when something completely wrong/bad/heresy is said - it should also be backed up with a Scripture to show where the disagreement comes from - amen

If pre-trib was from God He would of declared it in His Word. - No one who believes in pre-trib can show a single Scripture that declares it as Truth.

Do you deny the Order of Scripture in 1 Thessalonians ch 4 ?

I'm sorry I see the red X as what it says I disagree If think it is a biblical error I would say so or if it was heretical.

I did not call you a liar as you did me, And I have as many backed up what we see in scripture, you" X" disagree that is fine .

I said there is support for both points of view YOU did not see that? I said I could be wrong, you did not see tHAT?

If you are not open to what others think even if they may have a different opinion then don't engage with them if, you are going to call them liars, or don't read r what was said by them.

 

[DavidTree]

No wrath for the Bride, the Church, His Body, those justified by His blood. Wrath is reserved for the hard and impenitent, the children of wrath, the sons of disobedience. The Church does not suffer the tribulation judgment WRATH upon the earth (see Rev excerpts below). Or judgement of eternal wrath at the GWT.

You see, one needs to compare Scripture with Scripture, out of which sound doctrine is developed.

Rom 2:5
But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

Rom 5:9
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Eph 2:3
among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Eph 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Col 3:6
Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,

1Th 1:10
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1Th 5:9
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Heb 4:3
For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,' ”[fn]
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

2 Pet 2:9
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

============================================================================================================
============================================================================================================
Here is the aforementioned wrath of the Lamb and God. This particular wrath is upon the EARTH DWELLERS.
10 X wrath of God and 1X wrath of the Lamb. 1X the wrath of the devil.

Rev 6:16
and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

Rev 6:17
“For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Rev 11:18
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Rev 12:12
“Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Rev 14:10
“he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Rev 14:19
So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev 15:1
Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.

Rev 15:7
Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.

Rev 16:1
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls[fn] of the wrath of God on the earth.”

Rev 16:19
Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

Rev 18:3
“For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.”

Rev 19:15
Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[fn] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

God's wrath is NOT upon His Bride His Church His Elect - we all know this Brother - this is why we REJOICE.

Tribulation is not God's wrath.

Did you find the First Resurrection in Revelation or are you refusing to look.

 

[DavidTree]

I'm sorry I see the red X as what it says I disagree If think it is a biblical error I would say so or if it was heretical.

I did not call you a liar as you did me, And I have as many backed up what we see in scripture, you" X" disagree that is fine .

I said there is support for both points of view YOU did not see that? I said I could be wrong, you did not see tHAT?

If you are not open to what others think even if they may have a different opinion then don't engage with them if, you are going to call them liars, or don't read r what was said by them.

Where did i call you a liar? Pre-trib is a lie. Do not attach yourself to a lie. We are sanctified in Truth = His Word is Truth.

Pre-trib can ONLY be one of two things = either Truth or a Lie. You must find out which one, according to Scripture alone........

 

[cv5]

This verse has the Apostle John describing himself and his saved brethren the Church while they YET minister on the EARTH.
Rev 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

This verse describes the Church...NOW RAPTURED (and is heaven before the Throne) at a point BEFORE the man of sin is revealed (Rev 6:2), an event the begins the 70th week of Daniel, defined as the opening of the first seal.
Rev 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[CS1]

God's wrath is NOT upon His Bride His Church His Elect - we all know this Brother - this is why we REJOICE.

Tribulation is not God's wrath.

Did you find the First Resurrection in Revelation or are you refusing to look.

the great Tribulation is God's wrath poured out on the earth.

There is always tribulation, however, the " Great Tribulation as the word of God describes is very specific from the normal. Jesus said such like the world has never seen OR will ever again

 

[cv5]

Revelation 2:10

Yes sorry. Back on the laptop now. Smart TV keyboard not working properly AGAIN.....see all the typos?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Revelation 2:10

...excerpted from my Post #276 (page 14) of this thread:


... the pre-trib viewpoint acknowledges (like Paul acknowledged) that even the Thessalonians BACK THEN were experiencing "persecutions and tribulations which YE ENDURE" 2Th1:4, as well as saying basically the same in 2Cor1:4 and 2Cor1:8 (in the singular, and with the definite article) "the tribulation of us" in their day [SAME WORD you're speaking of] ... (and it is NO DIFFERENT for us in our own day! NOW!)

"The Church which is His body" has indeed experienced this throughout its entire existence on the earth since the first century [some near 2000 years!]; we [...]

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4644188

[end quoting]






No pre-tribbers deny that "persecutions" and "tribulations" (and even "the tribulation of us" ^ ) has been occurring all throughout "the Church which is His body's" existence on the earth since the first century.

I wouldn't say that has any impact on what Rev3:10 is saying, which has (instead) to do with a specific, future, limited TIME-PERIOD (which is telling of the "I will keep you OUT-OF" thing--that is, out-of the TIME-PERIOD being referred to).

[1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1... "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (in contrast to "the things WHICH ARE" which are NOT said to be so--in chpts 2-3)... and which end with His Second Coming to the earth in Rev19]

 

[DavidTree]

I'm sorry I see the red X as what it says I disagree If think it is a biblical error I would say so or if it was heretical.

I did not call you a liar as you did me, And I have as many backed up what we see in scripture, you" X" disagree that is fine .

I said there is support for both points of view YOU did not see that? I said I could be wrong, you did not see tHAT?

If you are not open to what others think even if they may have a different opinion then don't engage with them if, you are going to call them liars, or don't read r what was said by them.

i am open - i have been saved and studying God's Word from the Day i was Born Again = 37 years and counting.

i am fully versed in pre-trib and the Scripture has proven it to be a lie - this is why i posted the Truth Challenge.

i am financially poor - to me the amount of the $1,000 Reward is equivalent to most people as $10K or even $100K.

I stand on my word - prove pre-trib from Scripture alone and you will receive from me $1,000 and my greatfulness to you for Truth.

$1,000 (US dollars) to the first person that can show the scripture(s) that clearly state: The Bride of Christ/His Elect/the Church is pre-tribulation raptured before the First Resurrection and before the Antichrist. The Bride of Christ/His Elect/the Church as a whole Body of Believers.

*** IMPORTANT - Individual believers/resurrections/raptures such as Enoch, Elijah, Lazarrus, John and the Saints from Matthew 27:51-53 (which is the fulfillment of Isaiah 26:19) = DO NOT QUALIFY.

Rules have been set forth by the Moderator = our Lord Jesus Christ

Rules Apply: ONLY Scripture: No Conjecture - No Commentaries - No personal belief statements

Rules for Disqualification: Seeking to Argue/Arguments - Adding to or taking away from God's Word - Personal Belief Statements - Conjecture

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book." Revelation 22:18-19

Proverbs 30: 5-6 "Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.

Deuteronomy 4:1-2 Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you
You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you.

EXAMPLE to Follow as Your Guide: Show Proof (Scripture) that Jesus is the ONLY way we can be saved.

ANSWER(S): John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by Me.
Acts 4:11-12 This Jesus is ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’
Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

 

[DavidTree]

This verse has the Apostle John describing himself and his saved brethren the Church while they YET minister on the EARTH.
Rev 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

This verse describes the Church...NOW RAPTURED (and is heaven before the Throne) at a point BEFORE the man of sin is revealed (Rev 6:2), an event the begins the 70th week of Daniel, defined as the opening of the first seal.
Rev 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

You just added to God's word what it did not say - you said so, but not God. This is where pre-trib and every error comes from.

Right now, we who are Sanctified in His Blood are seated in Christ at the Right Hand of the Father - NOW = TODAY.

TODAY we are kings and priests of Him who called us out of darkness and placed us in the Kingdom of the Love of His Son.

 

[DavidTree]

the great Tribulation is God's wrath poured out on the earth.

There is always tribulation, however, the " Great Tribulation as the word of God describes is very specific from the normal. Jesus said such like the world has never seen OR will ever again

Jesus said that He comes for us during this Great Tribulation and He Shortens the number of days in it for HIS Elect - Matt 24

There is no pre-trib rapture in Matt 24 or Matt 25 or in any of the Gospels - please find it for us if you can.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is

The text doesn't say that... what it states instead is,

"Because you have kept the word of the patient-endurance of Me, I will also keep..."



[not "verb" but "noun"]


... which is an entirely different thing (that I find many people do not grasp).

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/3-10.htm - Revelation 3:10




[and again, the promise has to do with being kept out-of a very specific future TIME PERIOD]

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Yes sorry. Back on the laptop now. Smart TV keyboard not working properly AGAIN.....see all the typos?

We all do that. Drat the 5-min rule!
We have enough arguing, I don't like to pick on people over trivialities like typos.

 

[cv5]

Have you noticed it's a conditional promise? (The part you bolded)

"Because you have done this I will do that"

It calls for perseverance.

It doesn't say a thing about sweeping this group of Christians away to heaven.
It sounds more like Jesus will help them through the time of testing on earth.

All saved Christians persevere.....this by the Power of God They ABIDE in the vine.

A second class Christian is an unbiblical fallacy. You are either in or out, a Saint or an ain't.

BTW....the final time the term ekklēsia is found is in Rev is 3:14. Furthermore, the preaching post chapter 6 is now being accomplished by 144,000 Israelites.....NEWLY COMMISSIONED. Whatever happened to the Great Commission of the Church to preach? Has it been annulled? Of course not. The Church is no longer present ON THE EARTH.

As an aside, newly commissioning Israel to represent God and mediate His Kingdom ON THE EARTH is precisely what the multitudes and multitudes of prophecies of the restoration of Israel to an earthly Kingdom DEMAND. You see, the 70th week of Daniel INAGURATES the process of Israel's redemption for service and blessing.

 

[DavidTree]

The text doesn't say that... what it states instead is,

"Because you have kept the word of the patient-endurance of Me, I will also keep..."



[not "verb" but "noun"]



... which is an entirely different thing (which I find many people do not grasp).

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/3-10.htm - Revelation 3:10

SAME thing brother - splitting hairs will not change the Scripture here.

 

[CS1]

Where did i call you a liar? Pre-trib is a lie. Do not attach yourself to a lie. We are sanctified in Truth = His Word is Truth.

Pre-trib can ONLY be one of two things = either Truth or a Lie. You must find out which one, according to Scripture alone........

If you truly love the Truth,
If you hold to pre-trib error then you are a pre-tribber

Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6

Please don't think using the word of God to attack those you disagree with is something I am not familiar with.

That is what you did.