the ruler to come in Dan 9

[Pilgrimshope]

Sorry to post again it occurred I didn’t leave this which was why I added the last post to support your thinking about Rome being the first generation of the “prince who was to comes people “

so if we say Satan is obviously the prince who was to come being cast out of heaven after Christ was taken up his people would begin with Rome who Satan gave his authority on earth to carry out his war

“And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. ( 3 and a half ) And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Ahwatukee]

A different view of Dan 9.
I'm seeing the 70 Weeks of Dan 9 a little differently than I have been. And I think it may make reading it a little more cohesive and readable, which should be what an account is all about.

Dan 9.24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

In vss. 26-27 there is a central character, the "ruler who will come," which I believe refers to the Roman leader--not a specific leader, but basically a position. He will do several things, it appears.
1) He will have his people destroy Jerusalem and the temple.
2) He will confirm a covenant with many for a Week, presumably of years.
3) He will put an end to sacrifice and offering in the middle of the Week.
4) He will set up an abomination that causes desolation.

What's different in my position now is that I used to think Christ was the one who confirms a covenant with many for a Week, and put an end to sacrifice and offering in the middle of the Week. But that seems to confuse the cohesiveness of the discourse, and muddy who is doing what. If we see all of the elements being orchestrated by a single entity, the Roman leadership, then it makes cohesive sense, and the prophecy seems to flow more evenly.

So how did the Roman leader(s) make this happen? He brought about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple from 70-135 AD. Leading up to this, Rome initially allowed the Jews to continue under their temple covenant during the ministry of Christ, which lasted 3.5 years. This was the 70th Week of the 70 Weeks Prophecy.

You are correct in that, the "He" in verse 26 is referring to "The Ruler" of the people. However, it speaking about that future antichrist that is to come. In Matt.24:15, Jesus quoted Daniel 9:27 saying,

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Consequently, from the time that Jesus quoted the above to the time that the temple was destroyed, there was no one who made a seven year covenant and no abomination was set up. It is prophecy regarding that future antichrist and the future temple. You can't claim that something has come to pass unless you have fulfillment of the details.

In addition, the Anointed One/Messiah, was cut off (crucified) at the end of the 69 seven year periods, not even being a part of the last seven years, which again is a future event. That last seven years stands off by itself as a future event. Jesus said, "I will build My church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." When the Anointed One was cut off fulfilling 69 of the seventy sevents, God paused the last seven years of the decree and began to build the church. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will appear and gather the dead and living believers, immortal and glorified, taking them back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us. After that, God will pick up right where He left off in fulfillment of that last seven years, with that ruler, the antichrist, establishing a seven year agreement will Israel, allowing them to rebuild their temple and begin to sacrifice according to the law, which was active at the time the decree was issue through Daniel. This seven year period is when God is going to deal with Israel and pour out His wrath upon a Christ-rejecting world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Where at the end of the seven years, the Lord will return to the earth to end the age and that ruler/antichrist will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire, along with the false prophet.

"And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

The word "him" here may also be translated at "it," apparently. As such, it may be rendered, more properly, as...

"And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on IT."

Daniel calls him "the little horn and that ruler." Paul calls him "the man of lawlessness," John calls him the antichrist and in Revelation John calls him "the beast." All of that said, how can an "it" be cast ALIVE into the lake of fire as described in the scripture below?

"But the beast was captured along with the false prophet, who on his behalf had performed signs deceiving those who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. Both the beast and the false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

We need to bring in all of the scriptures to get the full picture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay, I'll try again. The prophecy, in my view, says there will be 69 weeks until Messiah comes, yes. Technically, I believe that there was 69 weeks until a covenant was confirmed by some entity, whether Christ himself or the Roman government. That confirmation began at the point at which Christ came in ministry.

Where is this covenant? And when was Christ according to OT prophecy introduced as messiah? (Remember jesus kept saying over and over, it is NOT MY TIME YET)

And so, it was 69 weeks until the Messiah began his ministry. This was not 69 weeks until Messiah was born, but 69 weeks until he entered into ministry at about 30 years old.

Yet he was not introduced as messiah yet, So how can this be? That is the part I am struggling with

There is one more week *after* the 69 weeks. 1st 7 weeks, then 62 weeks, and finally the 70th week. It is in this 70th week that something happens to end sacrifice and offering under the Law. And this event was the putting to death of Messiah by the Romans. It in effect ended God's recognition of those sacrifices, even though they continued to be offered for another 40 years.

Sacrifice was not ended. The blood of bulls and goats never took away sin. Plus the prophesy and Jesus himself said it would be the abomination of desolation which caused sacrifice to cease. Any jew in that day would have understood this.

The prophecy was given to jews. We must interpret as they would. Sacrifice as you continued did continue.

And so, it was after 3.5 years of the 70th Week that this event took place, the crucifixion of Christ. This was *not,* in my view, the Abomination of Desolation. Rather, it was the putting to death of the Anointed One, and the termination of sacrifice and offering in the eyes of God.

but this is not what the prophet said. We must take him literally. The messiah was cut off immediately following the 69th week. Looking at history. This is exactly what happened.

This took place in the "midst" of the 70th Week, meaning that we have 69.5 weeks fulfilling the prophecy of the 70 Weeks. I don't understand where your confusion is, unless you somehow conflate the cutting off of Christ with the AoD?

The prophecy of the 70 Weeks also speaks of the destruction of the city and the sanctuary. We know this happened 40 years *after* the completion of the 70 Weeks. Jesus said the exact same thing in his Olivet Discourse when he claimed that within his generation, ie the generation of his death, the Roman Army would come against Jerusalem and the temple. And he called it the AoD.

the destruction of the. City took place almost 4 decades after “messiah was cut of”

It is after this event that the prince who is to come confirms a covenant with many for one week

It is in the middle of this week that the abomination of desolation occures which causes sacrifice to cease.

It is the end of the 70 week that all things prophesied concerning the city and people of Daniel would be fulfilled

they have not been fulfilled yet

so again, I can not see what you are seeing , it makes no sense.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There are a couple of different approaches to this. One is that the covenant was the covenant of Law that Christ came to confirm in his ministry. He confirmed the Law by fulfilling everything he tried and failed to do--everything that it promised Christ himself would be able to do. This is the view I've traditionally held to.

The other view, which I'm considering now, is that the Roman government somehow confirmed the covenant of God to offer his Son by committing him to death. The death was to complete the Week--not to last for the whole Week. It was to complete the final period of the 70 Weeks by finishing Christ's 3.5 year ministry by putting him to death.

The 6 things this prophecy was designed to do was basically the same thing Jesus did in his Olivet Discourse. Just when the Disciples thought Herod's refurbished temple was the glory of God Jesus said it would be destroyed. Similarly, just when Daniel heard that the temple and the city would be restored he was told that 70 Weeks of years later it would all be destroyed again.

This is because God was showing Daniel that Israel's sins would not go away with time. The whole process of restoration and a return to sin would be shown to be repeated in history. The restoration of the temple did not mean the final repentance of Israel--it was just a moment in time. Sin in Israel would soon return, and get worse.

The Messiah would come not to bring in the Kingdom of God, but rather, to prepare for the destruction of Jerusalem as a final cleansing of the Jewish People. Their worship would be taken away, and the Roman nation would receive their own opportunity to be the "Chosen Nation."

The 6 things Jesus oversaw was...

...to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

Messiah would prepare for the end of sin in Israel by demolishing them and their city. He would atone for wickedness by dying in the midst of Israel's sin, bringing forgiveness for the repentant. He would bring in everlasting righteousness by disposing of the need for temporary atonement under the Law--he would rise from the dead to intercede for his people forever. He would seal up vision and prophecy at the Cross when he said, "It is finished." And he anointed the Most Holy Place by becoming the Holy One in God's heavenly temple.

there is on thing you need to take into consideration.

Dan 9: 24 - “Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city,

I worry that people look at the what, but fail to look at the who. And in doing so. mistranslate the prophecy

The prophecy concerns the nation of Israel, and the city of Jerusalem.

some things to concider

1. Israel was in sin, and the city laid in ruins at this time according to lev 26

Daniels prayer -
5 we have sinned and committed iniquity, we have done wickedly and rebelled, even by departing from Your precepts and Your judgments. 6 Neither have we heeded Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings and our princes, to our fathers and all the people of the land. 7 O Lord, righteousness belongs to You, but to us shame of face, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those near and those far off in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of the unfaithfulness which they have committed against You.
8 “O Lord, to us belongs shame of face, to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, because we have sinned against You. 9 To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, though we have rebelled against Him. 10 We have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His laws, which He set before us by His servants the prophets. 11 Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him. 12 And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem.
13 “As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us;

Here is what the law of moses says in Lev 26:

27 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me, 28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. 29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters. 30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols; and My soul shall abhor you. 31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your sweet aromas. 32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it. 33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you; your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.

if we look at history. This has happened three times

1. Northern kingdom of Israel - Assyria
2. Southern kingdom of Judah - Babylon. At time of this writing in daniel 9. Judah is still in this stae
3. ad 70. when rome layed waste to jerusalem, and destroyed the temple. leaving it in desolation. Whivh has been active right up to this day.

2. Daniel prayed for his people and confessed their sin in accordance with the lev 26 guidelines.

Lev 26:
40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, 41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
I will remember the land.

which is exactly what Daniel was doing as you saw above, he was confessing his sins and those of his peoples. According to the law of moses.

He ended with calling out for Gods mercy. Based not on Israel being good. But because of Gods promises

16 “O Lord, according to all Your righteousness, I pray, let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people are a reproach to all those around us. 17 Now therefore, our God, hear the prayer of Your servant, and his supplications, and for the Lord’s sake cause Your face to shine on Your sanctuary, which is desolate. 18 O my God, incline Your ear and hear; open Your eyes and see our desolations, and the city which is called by Your name; for we do not present our supplications before You because of our righteous deeds, but because of Your great mercies. 19 O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and act! Do not delay for Your own sake, my God, for Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”

then we have gabriel answer this pray of Daniel

Notice again, It concernes Daniels people (Israel or Judah) and city (Jerusalem)

what would happen to these things..

To finish the transgression,

Israel is still in sin. It is why 70 AD occurred once again and Jerusalem was destroyed and layed waste.

To make an end of sins,
Again, Still in sin, they have yet to repent according to lev 26.

To make reconciliation for iniquity,
fulfilled with Christ

To bring in everlasting righteousness,
This is a sign of how the earth will be in the millenial reign

To seal up vision and prophecy,
There is still prophecy that needs to be fulfilled. Including the return of Christ. which is to occur at the end of the 70th week

And to anoint the Most Holy.

This is talking about anointing the king. Which is done when a king takes the throne. This has not yet happened.

The issue many take is the take Israel and jerusalem out of the equation. This is why so many fail to see what is really going on here

 

[Yahshua]

Where is this covenant? And when was Christ according to OT prophecy introduced as messiah? (Remember jesus kept saying over and over, it is NOT MY TIME YET)

The covenant is THEE covenant that we're all grafted onto. The New Covenant.

The Messiah was introduced by John ("behold the lamb of God...this is the man of whom I spoke..."), by The Messiah himself to the samaritan woman ("I am He."), and then early on in his ministry the people (Jews) sought to make Him their king but He ran away because it wasn't time yet.

The OT prophecy of riding on a donkey was to introduce Israel's king.

Sacrifice was not ended. The blood of bulls and goats never took away sin. Plus the prophesy and Jesus himself said it would be the abomination of desolation which caused sacrifice to cease. Any jew in that day would have understood this.

The prophecy was given to jews. We must interpret as they would. Sacrifice as you continued did continue.

Sacrifice for sin ended the moment The Messiah went to the cross. This is why Paul explains to the Galatians their folly regarding "justification" and how they were bewitched. After the cross many believing Jews (and new gentile converts to the faith) incorrectly continued to offer sacrifice and other rites (i.e. "works of the law") for cleansing of sin when Messiah did the work.

In terms of Jews understanding things, during Messiah's ministry and including Paul's it's clearly shown that the Jews at large rarely understood any of what was happening, unfortunately.

but this is not what the prophet said. We must take him literally. The messiah was cut off immediately following the 69th week. Looking at history. This is exactly what happened.

If we take the prophet literally, he doesn't say "immediately following" he simply says "after".

If we assume for a moment that time keeps ticking (as time usually does in life), then after the 1st week comes the 2nd week etc...after the 5th week comes the 6th week etc...after the 69th week comes the 70th week.

If from the decree until the Messiah (as in "until folks officially see Him") will span 69 weeks, then after the 69th week (when Messiah is cut off) puts us in the 70th week when that event occurs because...time.

If we take the prophet literally then we read what's literally there and can't add gaps or pauses unless literally stated.

It is after this event that the prince who is to come confirms a covenant with many for one week

The prophecy isn't saying there will be a 1-week covenant. The prophecy is giving another portion (the final portion) of the 70 sevens prophecy just like when Gabriel started.

7 sevens...
62 sevens...
1 seven...

It's just a figure of speech the way it was framed. It's like me saying, "I'm getting married in a week". I'm not saying it'll take me 1 week to get married or that my marriage will only last 1 week. I'm pointing to a specific timeframe and explaining what event will happen then.

 

[randyk]

amen dear brother the beginning and end but his words also are also key to unlock the mysteries of prophecy

“And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭9:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

just before his death

“Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Which led to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple and the perpetual desolations of earth until this war ends


“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I don't really relate Rev 12 to Dan 9. Dan 9 has to do with the earthly ministry of Christ and to the fall of Jerusalem which immediately fell afterwards. And Dan 12 begins at the earthly ministry of Christ and then switches to the last days, when Antichrist arises.

To be honest, I'm not sure how to connect these two pages. But I welcome all input, so as to get the whole picture.

 

[randyk]

there is on thing you need to take into consideration.

Dan 9: 24 - “Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city,

I worry that people look at the what, but fail to look at the who. And in doing so. mistranslate the prophecy

The prophecy concerns the nation of Israel, and the city of Jerusalem.

some things to concider

1. Israel was in sin, and the city laid in ruins at this time according to lev 26

Daniels prayer -
5 we have sinned and committed iniquity, we have done wickedly and rebelled, even by departing from Your precepts and Your judgments. 6 Neither have we heeded Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings and our princes, to our fathers and all the people of the land. 7 O Lord, righteousness belongs to You, but to us shame of face, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those near and those far off in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of the unfaithfulness which they have committed against You.
8 “O Lord, to us belongs shame of face, to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, because we have sinned against You. 9 To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, though we have rebelled against Him. 10 We have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His laws, which He set before us by His servants the prophets. 11 Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him. 12 And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem.
13 “As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us;

Here is what the law of moses says in Lev 26:

27 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me, 28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. 29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters. 30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols; and My soul shall abhor you. 31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your sweet aromas. 32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it. 33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you; your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.

if we look at history. This has happened three times

1. Northern kingdom of Israel - Assyria
2. Southern kingdom of Judah - Babylon. At time of this writing in daniel 9. Judah is still in this stae
3. ad 70. when rome layed waste to jerusalem, and destroyed the temple. leaving it in desolation. Whivh has been active right up to this day.

2. Daniel prayed for his people and confessed their sin in accordance with the lev 26 guidelines.

Lev 26:
40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, 41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
I will remember the land.

which is exactly what Daniel was doing as you saw above, he was confessing his sins and those of his peoples. According to the law of moses.

He ended with calling out for Gods mercy. Based not on Israel being good. But because of Gods promises

16 “O Lord, according to all Your righteousness, I pray, let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people are a reproach to all those around us. 17 Now therefore, our God, hear the prayer of Your servant, and his supplications, and for the Lord’s sake cause Your face to shine on Your sanctuary, which is desolate. 18 O my God, incline Your ear and hear; open Your eyes and see our desolations, and the city which is called by Your name; for we do not present our supplications before You because of our righteous deeds, but because of Your great mercies. 19 O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and act! Do not delay for Your own sake, my God, for Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”

then we have gabriel answer this pray of Daniel

Notice again, It concernes Daniels people (Israel or Judah) and city (Jerusalem)

what would happen to these things..

To finish the transgression,

Israel is still in sin. It is why 70 AD occurred once again and Jerusalem was destroyed and layed waste.

To make an end of sins,
Again, Still in sin, they have yet to repent according to lev 26.

To make reconciliation for iniquity,
fulfilled with Christ

To bring in everlasting righteousness,
This is a sign of how the earth will be in the millenial reign

To seal up vision and prophecy,
There is still prophecy that needs to be fulfilled. Including the return of Christ. which is to occur at the end of the 70th week

And to anoint the Most Holy.

This is talking about anointing the king. Which is done when a king takes the throne. This has not yet happened.

The issue many take is the take Israel and jerusalem out of the equation. This is why so many fail to see what is really going on here

I completely and whole-heartedly agree with you that this is about *Israel!* I've not said otherwise. But I believe this all took place at Jesus' 1st Coming, at his earthly ministry. He died on the cross, and following that Jerusalem, with its temple, fell.

This is how God disposed of sin in Israel, by sending them into captivity, by dispersing them throughout the earth, until Jesus comes back. This is the fate of nations, including chosen nations, who begin with God and with His covenant. They ultimately capitulate to sin because there is always sin in the camp, and enough tolerance to allow sin to get a grip. Then leaven spreads throughout the loaf, and ultimately, God has to destroy that nation.

Israel is an example of that, a sign for Christian nations in the present age, who are now going through the same process, ultimately capitulating to sin and turning to national apostasy. Judgment is awaiting us all!

I don't agree that this has anything to do with the last days, except that this prophecy is preparatory for Christian nations to go through the same process that Israel has. The prophecy and vision that Messiah fulfilled wasn't about endtimes prophecy, but rather, about the 6 specific things that the 70 Weeks prophecy was said to be concerned with, namely the judgment of Israel, and the atonement of Christ.

Yes, Jesus did assume his throne in heaven, although you're right that he has not yet set up his Kingdom on earth. Nevertheless, Dan 9 had nothing to do with his 2nd Coming, in my view.

 

[Yahshua]

I agree with everything you say above the quoted portion below...

As you explain, when Israel is WITHIN their time of punishment they are required to repent to overturn the punishment, else it'll get worse. The 70 sevens wasn't just a timeframe of what will happen. It was a COUNTDOWN until punishment worsened...so it necessitates the fulfillment of that timeframe when punishment actually worsened.

The key passage I usually bring up is Matthew 18:21-22, when Peter asked Messiah how many times he should forgive his neighbor who sins against him. The Messiah says "70 x 7". I believe this is a clue as to how the Almighty extends mercy for sin before judgment falls.

what would happen to these things..

To finish the transgression,

Israel is still in sin. It is why 70 AD occurred once again and Jerusalem was destroyed and layed waste.

Agreed. But this means time was up, not that it was paused.

To make an end of sins,
Again, Still in sin, they have yet to repent according to lev 26.

A similar phrase is used in Ezekiel 35:5

Because thou [Edom] hast had a perpetual hatred, and hast shed the blood of the children of Israel by the force of the sword in the time of their calamity, in the time that their iniquity had an end:

If you look at other translations as well as the Hebrew it doesn't mean to end but means "to bring sin to its peak"., which is what the Almighty usually waits for in scripture before rendering harsh judgment. "Bring sin to the full".

The Jews rejected and had a hand in killing The Almighty's beloved Son. Can't get more sinful than that.

Fulfilled.

To make reconciliation for iniquity,
fulfilled with Christ

Amen.

To bring in everlasting righteousness,
This is a sign of how the earth will be in the millenial reign

If "everlasting righteousness" means what you say here then there wouldn't be a Gog/Magog invasion after the millennium reign. Righteousness in the world would be everlasting.

The everlasting righteousness here is referring to what folks here are often mentioning whenever I say obedience is still required. Everlasting righteousness here is what many call "imputed righteousness" (i.e. record of sin cleared).

No one would be able to say their sins are forgiven without this. I know you know this, but your argument is "Israel doesn't accept Messiah so this isn't fulfilled"...but there were many many Jews who accepted this who became followers. The rest were blind and fell into judgment (Roman 11).

Fulfilled.

To seal up vision and prophecy,
There is still prophecy that needs to be fulfilled. Including the return of Christ. which is to occur at the end of the 70th week

Gabriel was talking about Jeremiah's prophecy that Daniel was studying. Confirming his prophecy.

And to anoint the Most Holy.

This is talking about anointing the king. Which is done when a king takes the throne. This has not yet happened.

While I will agree that the Messiah is the most holy Being. They would've understood this as the ark of the covenant and/or the holy of holies. The ark was to be anointed with blood every year, on the holiest day of the year, for the cleansing of the nation's sin.

The book of Hebrews explains this was fulfilled in it's TRUE form in heaven's tabernacle...and with the Messiah's blood.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The covenant is THEE covenant that we're all grafted onto. The New Covenant.

The Messiah was introduced by John ("behold the lamb of God...this is the man of whom I spoke..."), by The Messiah himself to the samaritan woman ("I am He."), and then early on in his ministry the people (Jews) sought to make Him their king but He ran away because it wasn't time yet.

The OT prophecy of riding on a donkey was to introduce Israel's king.

1. The new covenant was initialized by the death of CHrist. and was not for 1 week. but for all eternity
2. SO messiah is introduced to one woman. and not to the people of Israel?
3. Yes. King messiah (messiah was to be king. Everything in the ot which mentions messiah is the king. The suffering servant is the one who would take the sins.. It is the hidden mystery paul spoke of

Sacrifice for sin ended the moment The Messiah went to the cross. This is why Paul explains to the Galatians their folly regarding "justification" and how they were bewitched. After the cross many believing Jews (and new gentile converts to the faith) incorrectly continued to offer sacrifice and other rites (i.e. "works of the law") for cleansing of sin when Messiah did the work.

The blood of bulls and goats never took away sin. Not one annual sacrifice in the temple on the day of atonement ever took one sin of any person. Let alone people. So in reality. Sacrifices continued as they always were. In fact, the high priest who basically crucified christ. should have died the moment he entered the most holy place. the fact he did not proves Gods presence had long before left the holy place) So in effect. Sacrifice and burnt offering did not stop. it continued again for almost 4 decades.

Also. there was no Abomination of desolation. which would be the cause of the sacrifice ending. As it rendered the holy place unclean. We can go to Antiochus epiphanies for precedence,

In terms of Jews understanding things, during Messiah's ministry and including Paul's it's clearly shown that the Jews at large rarely understood any of what was happening, unfortunately.

what is shown is that they misrepresented the truth because of their pride. Sadly we are doing the same thing they did. in trying to make prophecy

If we take the prophet literally, he doesn't say "immediately following" he simply says "after".

If we assume for a moment that time keeps ticking (as time usually does in life), then after the 1st week comes the 2nd week etc...after the 5th week comes the 6th week etc...after the 69th week comes the 70th week.

If from the decree until the Messiah (as in "until folks officially see Him") will span 69 weeks, then after the 69th week (when Messiah is cut off) puts us in the 70th week when that event occurs because...time.

If we take the prophet literally then we read what's literally there and can't add gaps or pauses unless literally stated.

Again, In the hebrew, it has in it meaning something which happens immediately after. Not many years after.

The prophecy isn't saying there will be a 1-week covenant. The prophecy is giving another portion (the final portion) of the 70 sevens prophecy just like when Gabriel started.

7 sevens...
62 sevens...
1 seven...

It's just a figure of speech the way it was framed. It's like me saying, "I'm getting married in a week". I'm not saying it'll take me 1 week to get married or that my marriage will only last 1 week. I'm pointing to a specific timeframe and explaining what event will happen then.

And the prince who is to come shall CONFIRM A COVENANT FOR 1 WEEK

I must take it literally. it is a sign given so whoever is witnessing the event knows what is happening.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I completely and whole-heartedly agree with you that this is about *Israel!* I've not said otherwise. But I believe this all took place at Jesus' 1st Coming, at his earthly ministry. He died on the cross, and following that Jerusalem, with its temple, fell.

This is how God disposed of sin in Israel, by sending them into captivity, by dispersing them throughout the earth, until Jesus comes back. This is the fate of nations, including chosen nations, who begin with God and with His covenant. They ultimately capitulate to sin because there is always sin in the camp, and enough tolerance to allow sin to get a grip. Then leaven spreads throughout the loaf, and ultimately, God has to destroy that nation.

Israel is an example of that, a sign for Christian nations in the present age, who are now going through the same process, ultimately capitulating to sin and turning to national apostasy. Judgment is awaiting us all!

I don't agree that this has anything to do with the last days, except that this prophecy is preparatory for Christian nations to go through the same process that Israel has. The prophecy and vision that Messiah fulfilled wasn't about endtimes prophecy, but rather, about the 6 specific things that the 70 Weeks prophecy was said to be concerned with, namely the judgment of Israel, and the atonement of Christ.

Yes, Jesus did assume his throne in heaven, although you're right that he has not yet set up his Kingdom on earth. Nevertheless, Dan 9 had nothing to do with his 2nd Coming, in my view.

but this makes no sense.

Lev 26 tells that what would happen. Even after they returned they continued in sin. And all God did was do what he said he would do in the first place.

OT prophecy tells us even then, Israel as a whole will repent (not just Judah) and God would return them to the land as pone nation. And they would never commit their sins again.

ez 37:
21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.


24 “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” ’ ”

Here is basically the same wording

1. end of sin - They shall not defiles themselves with idols. or their transgressions
2. make reconciliation - he shall cleanse them
3. bring in everlasting righteousness - they shall walk in my judgments and observe my statutes
4. Anoint the most holy - In fulfilling the davidic covenant through christ. the one king over them

etc etc..

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I don't really relate Rev 12 to Dan 9. Dan 9 has to do with the earthly ministry of Christ and to the fall of Jerusalem which immediately fell afterwards. And Dan 12 begins at the earthly ministry of Christ and then switches to the last days, when Antichrist arises.

To be honest, I'm not sure how to connect these two pages. But I welcome all input, so as to get the whole picture.

Does it seem connected here at all

“And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. The first was like a lion, ….And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, …After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so you have a total of seven heads and ten horns there in those beasts that rose up from the sea correct ? And thier appearance was

“And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:1-2‬

Daniel was seeing this just as Babylon had come to power the first head is Babylon , but if you notice when John sees his vision of this beast 5 heads have already rose and fell one was ruling in johns day ( 6) and the other was about to rise up (7)

“…And there are seven kings: five are fallen,

and one is,

and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Daniel again

“Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell;

even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

johns beast

“And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:5-9‬

if you compare daniels beasts and johns beast they are identical in explaination johns vision is later and there’s only one left to rise up because five had come and gone one was already on power and the other was about to rise up .

Daniels little horn that comes up among the ten of this in John which referenced a future rebirth of the beast

“And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:11-13‬ ‭

“I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:8, 23-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

3 and a half times

“And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:5-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Over the whole earth ….. just some scriptire to consider it’s not that revelation is merely “ connected” to
Other prophecy like Daniel it is the apocolypse for understanding other prophecy is my own opinion and that’s all it is

 

[randyk]

Does it seem connected here at all

“And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. The first was like a lion, ….And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, …After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so you have a total of seven heads and ten horns there in those beasts that rose up from the sea correct ? And thier appearance was

“And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:1-2‬

Daniel was seeing this just as Babylon had come to power the first head is Babylon , but if you notice when John sees his vision of this beast 5 heads have already rose and fell one was ruling in johns day ( 6) and the other was about to rise up (7)

“…And there are seven kings: five are fallen,

and one is,

and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Daniel again

“Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell;

even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

johns beast

“And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:5-9‬

if you compare daniels beasts and johns beast they are identical in explaination johns vision is later and there’s only one left to rise up because five had come and gone one was already on power and the other was about to rise up .

Daniels little horn that comes up among the ten of this in John which referenced a future rebirth of the beast

“And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:11-13‬ ‭

“I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:8, 23-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

3 and a half times

“And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:5-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Over the whole earth ….. just some scriptire to consider it’s not that revelation is merely “ connected” to
Other prophecy like Daniel it is the apocolypse for understanding other prophecy is my own opinion and that’s all it is

Well, I think the Apocalypse is both for understanding previous prophecies and for adding new details to them. It sort of summarizes biblical prophecy for the endtimes.

I don't see the 7 kings of Rev 13-17 as related to Dan 7 in the same way you do. But I do see them related. In my view, Daniel speaks of 10 horns, 3 of which fall, leaving 7 horns. These are the 7 heads of the Beast.

John is also given a riddle that explains that the endtime Beast is somehow related to the then-present empire of Rome. It had 7 hills, which are the 7 hills of Rome. And they represent 7 successive kingdoms in the ancient history of Israel. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and Europe. The 8th is the Antichrist himself, who assumes control of Europe.

Dan 7 only begins with Babylon, and not with Egypt, because he lived in the time of Babylon, and Babylon was to be the head of the next series of 4 empires leading to Rome. That is, Rome, Greece, and Persia all derived their headship from the tradition of Babylon in the Middle East.

 

[randyk]

but this makes no sense.

Lev 26 tells that what would happen. Even after they returned they continued in sin. And all God did was do what he said he would do in the first place.

OT prophecy tells us even then, Israel as a whole will repent (not just Judah) and God would return them to the land as pone nation. And they would never commit their sins again.

ez 37:
21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.


24 “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” ’ ”

Here is basically the same wording

1. end of sin - They shall not defiles themselves with idols. or their transgressions
2. make reconciliation - he shall cleanse them
3. bring in everlasting righteousness - they shall walk in my judgments and observe my statutes
4. Anoint the most holy - In fulfilling the davidic covenant through christ. the one king over them

etc etc..

The problem I see with this is that you're mixing two different prophecies together. Eze 37 may very well refer to the endtimes, and to the ultimate restoration of Israel at the coming of Messiah. But Dan 9 does not do so in my judgment.

Dan 9 records that God deals with the problem associated with Israel's temple religion, which is that they break that covenant as a nation. Therefore, their temple religion is taken away from them, their temple is in fact taken away from them, and instead of continuing as God's "Chosen People," God turns to the Roman Nation to begin evangelizing them.

In other words, to make an end of specifically *Israel's* sin, God had to dispose of Israel...at least through the current age. When the time comes, God's grace will restore the nation once again, and this will be under the new Christian covenant.

The "everlasting righteousness" Daniel speaks of is speaking of it *beginning* in the earthly ministry of Christ and at the cross, where it is then delivered to the Roman Nation, and to all the world.

The Davidic covenant is fulfilled in two parts, one in the Messiah, who is the Davidic king of promise. And second, it is through the restoration of Israel, which is indeed endtime. But Dan 9 is only speaking of the beginning of NT applications, and not of its ultimate end at the 2nd Coming.

 

[randyk]

Sorry to post again it occurred I didn’t leave this which was why I added the last post to support your thinking about Rome being the first generation of the “prince who was to comes people “

so if we say Satan is obviously the prince who was to come being cast out of heaven after Christ was taken up his people would begin with Rome who Satan gave his authority on earth to carry out his war

“And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. ( 3 and a half ) And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Rome plays an amazing role in the history of the world. Europe is the center of Christianity, and likely the center of the future Antichristian Kingdom. Rome killed Jesus, a number of the apostles, and Paul. And it persecuted the early Church. It is also like the 4th Kingdom of Dan 2 and 7, which ultimately becomes 10 nations.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The problem I see with this is that you're mixing two different prophecies together. Eze 37 may very well refer to the endtimes, and to the ultimate restoration of Israel at the coming of Messiah. But Dan 9 does not do so in my judgment.

Dan 9 records that God deals with the problem associated with Israel's temple religion, which is that they break that covenant as a nation. Therefore, their temple religion is taken away from them, their temple is in fact taken away from them, and instead of continuing as God's "Chosen People," God turns to the Roman Nation to begin evangelizing them.

In other words, to make an end of specifically *Israel's* sin, God had to dispose of Israel...at least through the current age. When the time comes, God's grace will restore the nation once again, and this will be under the new Christian covenant.

The "everlasting righteousness" Daniel speaks of is speaking of it *beginning* in the earthly ministry of Christ and at the cross, where it is then delivered to the Roman Nation, and to all the world.

The Davidic covenant is fulfilled in two parts, one in the Messiah, who is the Davidic king of promise. And second, it is through the restoration of Israel, which is indeed endtime. But Dan 9 is only speaking of the beginning of NT applications, and not of its ultimate end at the 2nd Coming.

God made a covenant with Israel

ANY prophecy or any dealing of God with Israel deals with that covenant.

The reason israel is where it is today is because of Gods promise of what he would do in lev 26.

The restoration of Israel in Ezekiel or any other passage can not go against Gods own mandate. They must repent. According to lev 26

In fact. the prophesies we are talking about ALL claim that is exactly what happens.

That is why after the 70 weeks. They are no longer in sin, because they have repented.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Well, I think the Apocalypse is both for understanding previous prophecies and for adding new details to them. It sort of summarizes biblical prophecy for the endtimes.

I don't see the 7 kings of Rev 13-17 as related to Dan 7 in the same way you do. But I do see them related. In my view, Daniel speaks of 10 horns, 3 of which fall, leaving 7 horns. These are the 7 heads of the Beast.

John is also given a riddle that explains that the endtime Beast is somehow related to the then-present empire of Rome. It had 7 hills, which are the 7 hills of Rome. And they represent 7 successive kingdoms in the ancient history of Israel. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and Europe. The 8th is the Antichrist himself, who assumes control of Europe.

Dan 7 only begins with Babylon, and not with Egypt, because he lived in the time of Babylon, and Babylon was to be the head of the next series of 4 empires leading to Rome. That is, Rome, Greece, and Persia all derived their headship from the tradition of Babylon in the Middle East.

yea I think we’re in the same ball
Park I was just adding a thought brother and appreciate your response . I definitely agree with you on the purpose of revelation many don’t see it the same

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Rome plays an amazing role in the history of the world. Europe is the center of Christianity, and likely the center of the future Antichristian Kingdom. Rome killed Jesus, a number of the apostles, and Paul. And it persecuted the early Church. It is also like the 4th Kingdom of Dan 2 and 7, which ultimately becomes 10 nations.

Indeed Rome was important especially at the time of the church in those days and most likely in the future
This is off topic but I was reading in a drs office the other day an article by a cold case detective

it was about how the resurrection is proven he had a bunch of great points one of them was that Rome had such power and influence and had set out to destroy the gospel message which of course includes the importance of the resurrection , but one of his points was that if it hadn’t happened why would they have went through 300 years of suffering and so much horror and how was Rome not able to stamp out the message of the resurrection

sorry for getting off track but it was just interesting as I read your post there it popped onto My head I appreciate your thoughts through this thread here thanks for the patience God bless

 

[randyk]

Indeed Rome was important especially at the time of the church in those days and most likely in the future
This is off topic but I was reading in a drs office the other day an article by a cold case detective

it was about how the resurrection is proven he had a bunch of great points one of them was that Rome had such power and influence and had set out to destroy the gospel message which of course includes the importance of the resurrection , but one of his points was that if it hadn’t happened why would they have went through 300 years of suffering and so much horror and how was Rome not able to stamp out the message of the resurrection

sorry for getting off track but it was just interesting as I read your post there it popped onto My head I appreciate your thoughts through this thread here thanks for the patience God bless

That was a nice diversion and digression! I've thought of this also, and find it remarkable how God controls a world that appears random and out of control. God allows just enough self-will to bring men to judgment. Our job is to give our will over to the Lord, so that our will can be reborn into His likeness!

 

[randyk]

God made a covenant with Israel

ANY prophecy or any dealing of God with Israel deals with that covenant.

But that appears to be too simplistic for this discussion. As you should know, the covenant with Israel involved 2 elements, and not just 1. It involved both a promise and the dated conditions for that covenant to be fulfilled.

The dated conditions were imposed by the Law of Moses, which was a conditional agreement. As such, the covenant had to eliminate the dated conditions and revert back to the promise alone, so that there would no longer be any conditions on its fulfillment. The Law of Moses had to be both fulfilled and discarded.

The reason israel is where it is today is because of Gods promise of what he would do in lev 26.

The restoration of Israel in Ezekiel or any other passage can not go against Gods own mandate. They must repent. According to lev 26

In fact. the prophesies we are talking about ALL claim that is exactly what happens.

That is why after the 70 weeks. They are no longer in sin, because they have repented.

They do not fully repent after the 70 Weeks. The opposite is stated. The rebuilt temple passes through 70 weeks and is then destroyed again! And that is due to the sin of Israel, which led to the death of Messiah.

One day the wicked will be removed from Israel so that the nation can be spiritually reborn. That will take place at the 2nd Coming of Christ, in my view.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But that appears to be too simplistic for this discussion. As you should know, the covenant with Israel involved 2 elements, and not just 1. It involved both a promise and the dated conditions for that covenant to be fulfilled.

The dated conditions were imposed by the Law of Moses, which was a conditional agreement. As such, the covenant had to eliminate the dated conditions and revert back to the promise alone, so that there would no longer be any conditions on its fulfillment. The Law of Moses had to be both fulfilled and discarded.

But this is not true as far as lev 26 goes. It was said to be eternal. It was never discarded. paul makes this clear in Romans 11)

They do not fully repent after the 70 Weeks. The opposite is stated. The rebuilt temple passes through 70 weeks and is then destroyed again! And that is due to the sin of Israel, which led to the death of Messiah.

One day the wicked will be removed from Israel so that the nation can be spiritually reborn. That will take place at the 2nd Coming of Christ, in my view.

To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,

This does not happen UNLESS they repent my friend