Is modern praise and worship simply a form of conjuring?

[ResidentAlien]

i see your ailment brother = "its logical conclusion'

You speak of logic like there's something wrong with it. You've implied that I'm Pharisaical and have a "spirit of religion." Let me tell you, this line of argument isn't new or unusual. I probably have a "Jezebel" spirit too. This is the go-to response toward anyone who "resists the Spirit."

But think about this for a minute. Jesus used logic over and over with the Pharisees and Sadducees to poke holes in their fallacies. They placed the oral law on the same footing with the written law. Jesus used logic to show them their faulty assumptions saying: "It is written." So, if logic was good enough for Jesus it's good enough for me.

I don't know where you got the idea that there's something wrong with logic, but I hope you'll reconsider. Whoever's giving you ideas like this is feeding you lies.

 

[DavidTree]

You speak of logic like there's something wrong with it. You've implied that I'm Pharisaical and have a "spirit of religion." Let me tell you, this line of argument isn't new or unusual. I probably have a "Jezebel" spirit too. This is the go-to response toward anyone who "resists the Spirit."

But think about this for a minute. Jesus used logic over and over with the Pharisees and Sadducees to poke holes in their fallacies. They placed the oral law on the same footing with the written law. Jesus used logic to show them their faulty assumptions saying: "It is written." So, if logic was good enough for Jesus it's good enough for me.

I don't know where you got the idea that there's something wrong with logic, but I hope you'll reconsider. Whoever's giving you ideas like this is feeding you lies.

You keep making free fun and laughter -

The logic of God is JESUS and HE is the ONLY officially declared WISDOM for us to follow.

Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks,
Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1 Corinthians 1: 20 -25

For [you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise,
and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen,
and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence.

 

[presidente]

I would just like to ask a question to all those who have mentioned David "dancing before the Lord."

Why do people always resort to this Old Testament event as a reason for why they dance before the Lord in church today? Is it because of a conspicuous absence of any such practice in the New Testament?

2 Samuel 6:12 says: "So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-edom to the city of David with rejoicing." Does that mean we should keep a replica of the ark handy for when we dance before the Lord?

The Bible talks about singing psalms. Doesn't it make sense to do some of the stuff in the psalms while we sing them.

I find a lot of church practices not mentioned in the New Testament. Churches will have three hymns, one senior pastor preaching one sermon, etc.

The Bible mentions speakers in church--'every one of you' 'one speaks in tongues...'let one interpret'...let the prophets speak'...revelation vomes to one sitting by'... for ye may all prophesy.

The Bible mentions elders, plural, not the 'senior pastor.' The Lord is the chief Pastor.

 

[DavidTree]

lol thank you so much for this - i love it

 

[DavidTree]

The Bible talks about singing psalms. Doesn't it make sense to do some of the stuff in the psalms while we sing them.

I find a lot of church practices not mentioned in the New Testament. Churches will have three hymns, one senior pastor preaching one sermon, etc.

The Bible mentions speakers in church--'every one of you' 'one speaks in tongues...'let one interpret'...let the prophets speak'...revelation vomes to one sitting by'... for ye may all prophesy.

The Bible mentions elders, plural, not the 'senior pastor.' The Lord is the chief Pastor.

BEAUTIFUL and ALIVE in CHRIST

 

[oyster67]

At many charismatic churches, praise and worship can last from 30 to 45 minutes or even longer. The supposed purpose of this is to "call down" the Holy Spirit. But does the Holy Spirit really need to be called down, or is this just a way to get people into an emotional state of pleasure and receptivity? Does this sort of thing honor God or are we honoring the creature more than the Creator?

One song that comes to mind is Kari Jobe's "Holy Spirit." The reason I remember it is because the lyrics are clearly an invitation to the Spirit to fall, or come down. Here's the live video.

Virtually every charismatic church and especially megachurches use music to get the audience "in the mood." Maybe we should consider who or what is actually being conjured by this.

Be careful not to mock and ridicule things just because you do not understand them or have never experienced them. Some of us have. Some of us know that God's Spirit is very real and very alive today just as it always has been and always will be.

John
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

 

[oyster67]

So, if logic was good enough for Jesus it's good enough for me.

No, it was not "good enough for Jesus". It will not get you very far in the Kingdom. The just shall live by faith.

Hebrews
11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Be careful not to mock and ridicule things just because you do not understand them or have never experienced them.

I'm not mocking anything. You're doing what many others have tried to do in this thread which is to discredit and marginalize me by saying I'm doing something which I am clearly not. You say I'm mocking, but this is simply to deflect attention from the point I'm actually making.

The things I'm talking about I understand quite clearly.

 

[ResidentAlien]

No, it was not "good enough for Jesus".

So you're saying Jesus never used logic. I just want to be clear.

 

[Aaron56]

Logic and reason are good for what logic and reason are good for. But in matters of the Spirit they often come up short.

For example: "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God..."

This is not a witness in the mind of men, it is a witness in their spirits. Logic and reason cannot explain this because both are bound to the natural realm. Some may say "Well, this is just reading the Bible and agreeing with the verses." That would create a cognitive faith based on logic and reason. Such a faith, based on logic and reason, can easily be defeated by the same.

Sadly, what is sold to the people as spiritual is simply emotional (like the many videos and examples posted in the this thread and others). The enemy is not creative, he simply spins the same yarn over and over with differing machinations based on the times. To the spiritual, this is apparent, but the carnal are easily deceived.

Today, there is a separation occurring between the spiritual believers and natural believers. This was foretold:

"I will rouse your sons, O Zion,
against the sons of Greece."

Greece is the birthplace of philosophy and the teachings of logic and reason. In most churches there is a mixture. But, there is a day coming when the two camps will become distinctly separate from one another.

Now, some will say "How can you say that?" or "Who are you to say these things?" The logician will chase 666 with arithmetic formulas and old history books to try to discern the Day. The spiritual need only listen to the Spirit of God to be assured that, as they Day approaches, they will be prepared by Him. The truth is you get to decide for yourself whether or not what I say has any bearing on your life. To those who hear the Spirit of God, I am certain your time is not wasted reading my posts. To the sons of Greece: you would be better served playing Words with Friends. Alternatively you may ask God for wisdom and He will give it to you. The worst thing that could happen is that you win your freedom from a congregation who have denied the power of God and are consequently addicted to logic and reason.

 

[Katia]

I'm not mocking anything. You're doing what many others have tried to do in this thread which is to discredit and marginalize me by saying I'm doing something which I am clearly not. You say I'm mocking, but this is simply to deflect attention from the point I'm actually making.

The things I'm talking about I understand quite clearly.

I have attended, and experienced modern Charismatic services and found them personally intolerable, but that is just my personal preference. There are certain folk who find that sort of worship to be therapeutic and healing, and I find no fault in them.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I have attended, and experienced modern Charismatic services and found them personally intolerable, but that is just my personal preference. There are certain folk who find that sort of worship to be therapeutic and healing, and I find no fault in them.

It depends on what you mean by "that sort of worship." If it glorifies God, great. If it's really nothing more than an exercise in self-gratification, not so great.

The thing is, "churches" that encourage a type of self-gratification praise and worship usually have other false teaching associated with them. Some a little, some a lot.

 

[Katia]

It depends on what you mean by "that sort of worship." If it glorifies God, great. If it's really nothing more than an exercise in self-gratification, not so great.

The thing is, "churches" that encourage a type of self-gratification praise and worship usually have other false teaching associated with them. Some a little, some a lot.

As Told to me by a Pastor of a church, only about 10% of attendees read the Bible and of those, only a small fraction understand what they read. And, there are just lots of people of the cloth that say lay folk can not understand it at all. That became one of the reasons I became a student of Biblical works.

Looking, there seem to have been a half dozen or so secular writers who lived about the time of Jesus. Some made comments about various parts of his life. Though I don't remember the particulars, I think that one said that Jesus was not crucified. Islamists are of that opinion. It can be confusing studying extra Biblical writing.