The Falling Away - pre-trib rapture or ???

[DavidTree]

It has been strongly suggested that the "falling away" as spoken by the Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is the pre-trib rapture.
We who are His Body, as Belonging to Christ, must know the His answer from His Word so as not to be decieved.

When the Disciples asked our Lord Jesus Christ about His Return(the Second Coming) He gave this immediate Commandment & Warning.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. - Matthew 24: 3-4

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thess 2:1-4

The Apostle Paul combines the clear warning of the Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 with His Second Coming and the "Falling Away".

So is the "falling away" = the departure in the form of a pre-trib rapture or is it a "falling away" a departure from truth = the Gospel?

Human opinion alone on this important subject is not valid - Please confirm one way or the other with Scripture.

I make this Challenge for TRUTH = Prove it by the word of Two or Three Authoritative Witnesses = Matthew 18:16

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

It has been strongly suggested that the "falling away" as spoken by the Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is the pre-trib rapture.

Precious friend, thank you for this thread. Hopefully Many Will Be Encouraged And Comforted {and not deceived}, In God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

We who are His Body, as Belonging to Christ, must know the His answer from His Word so as not to be decieved.

Correct.

When the Disciples asked our Lord Jesus Christ about His Return(the Second Coming) He gave this immediate Commandment & Warning.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. - Matthew 24: 3-4

Correct again. This belongs in God's Prophetic program, under the law, with the
gospel of the kingdom, to the Twelve apostles, to the Twelve tribes of ISRAEL!
"Labeled" {for future reference} as: "Prophecy/Law"...

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thess 2:1-4

This is part and parcel of God's Revelation of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of
GRACE, to ONE apostle, Paul, for us, The Body Of CHRIST! label: "Mystery/GRACE"...

The Apostle Paul combines the clear warning of the Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 with His Second Coming and the "Falling Away".

Sorry, this in an incorrect assumption, as we will see From Scripture...

So is the "falling away" = the departure in the form of a pre-trib rapture or is it a "falling away" a departure from truth = the Gospel?

Before this can be answered, the question of "ONE gospel"? needs to be
addressed first {to prevent deception}, with our "labels," In God's Word Of
Truth, Rightly Divided! ie:
------------------
Prophecy/Law = Christ, on the earth, preached/commissioned
the Twelve to go to Israel, with "the gospel of the kingdom"

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!”:

Mystery/GRACE = CHRIST, from Heaven, commissioned ONE
apostle, Paul, with "The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!"
--------------------
Is there only "one gospel"? I believe the Scriptural Answer Is In This:
Full "study" is here = "witness" # 1:
God's Approval/TWO Different Gospels

With Further Scriptural Confirmation, In:
Full "study" is here = "witness" # 2:
Distinctions In God's Two Different Programs: Prophecy vs Mystery!

Finally answering, From The Scriptures, "the falling away"
Departure question, In:

Only The Conclusion of the Full {17-Part} "study" is here = "witness" # 3:
Great GRACE {MYSTERY} Departure @ the 2nd coming {prophecy}?

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!

(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship, today?)

 

[DavidTree]

Precious friend, thank you for this thread. Hopefully Many Will Be Encouraged And Comforted {and not deceived}, In God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

Correct.

Correct again. This belongs in God's Prophetic program, under the law, with the
gospel of the kingdom, to the Twelve apostles, to the Twelve tribes of ISRAEL!
"Labeled" {for future reference} as: "Prophecy/Law"...

This is part and parcel of God's Revelation of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of
GRACE, to ONE apostle, Paul, for us, The Body Of CHRIST! label: "Mystery/GRACE"...

Sorry, this in an incorrect assumption, as we will see From Scripture...

Before this can be answered, the question of "ONE gospel"? needs to be
addressed first {to prevent deception}, with our "labels," In God's Word Of
Truth, Rightly Divided! ie:
------------------
Prophecy/Law = Christ, on the earth, preached/commissioned
the Twelve to go to Israel, with "the gospel of the kingdom"

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!”:

Mystery/GRACE = CHRIST, from Heaven, commissioned ONE
apostle, Paul, with "The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!"
--------------------
Is there only "one gospel"? I believe the Scriptural Answer Is In This:
Full "study" is here = "witness" # 1:
God's Approval/TWO Different Gospels

With Further Scriptural Confirmation, In:
Full "study" is here = "witness" # 2:
Distinctions In God's Two Different Programs: Prophecy vs Mystery!

Finally answering, From The Scriptures, "the falling away"
Departure question, In:

Only The Conclusion of the Full {17-Part} "study" is here = "witness" # 3:
Great GRACE {MYSTERY} Departure @ the 2nd coming {prophecy}?

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!

(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship, today?)

So you are convinced of 'two separate gospels = one for the Jew and one for the Gentile?

YES/NO ???

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Precious friend, thank you for this thread. Hopefully Many Will Be Encouraged And Comforted {and not deceived}, In God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

Correct.

Correct again. This belongs in God's Prophetic program, under the law, with the
gospel of the kingdom, to the Twelve apostles, to the Twelve tribes of ISRAEL!
"Labeled" {for future reference} as: "Prophecy/Law"...

This is part and parcel of God's Revelation of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of
GRACE, to ONE apostle, Paul, for us, The Body Of CHRIST! label: "Mystery/GRACE"...

Sorry, this in an incorrect assumption, as we will see From Scripture...

Before this can be answered, the question of "ONE gospel"? needs to be
addressed first {to prevent deception}, with our "labels," In God's Word Of
Truth, Rightly Divided! ie:
------------------
Prophecy/Law = Christ, on the earth, preached/commissioned
the Twelve to go to Israel, with "the gospel of the kingdom"

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!”:

Mystery/GRACE = CHRIST, from Heaven, commissioned ONE
apostle, Paul, with "The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!"
--------------------
Is there only "one gospel"? I believe the Scriptural Answer Is In This:
Full "study" is here = "witness" # 1:
God's Approval/TWO Different Gospels

With Further Scriptural Confirmation, In:
Full "study" is here = "witness" # 2:
Distinctions In God's Two Different Programs: Prophecy vs Mystery!

Finally answering, From The Scriptures, "the falling away"
Departure question, In:

Only The Conclusion of the Full {17-Part} "study" is here = "witness" # 3:
Great GRACE {MYSTERY} Departure @ the 2nd coming {prophecy}?

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!

(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship, today?)

It has been strongly suggested that the "falling away" as spoken by the Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is the pre-trib rapture.
We who are His Body, as Belonging to Christ, must know the His answer from His Word so as not to be decieved.

When the Disciples asked our Lord Jesus Christ about His Return(the Second Coming) He gave this immediate Commandment & Warning.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. - Matthew 24: 3-4

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thess 2:1-4

The Apostle Paul combines the clear warning of the Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 with His Second Coming and the "Falling Away".

So is the "falling away" = the departure in the form of a pre-trib rapture or is it a "falling away" a departure from truth = the Gospel?

Human opinion alone on this important subject is not valid - Please confirm one way or the other with Scripture.

I make this Challenge for TRUTH = Prove it by the word of Two or Three Authoritative Witnesses = Matthew 18:16

this is a circle his premise is that there’s another different gospel so it’s never going to make sense he’s read a lot of Joseph prince and Paul Ellis

to understand where he is coming from you would have to look at thier website and see how they operate and what they teach

they’ve taken this phrase


“But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭20:24‬ ‭

then they define grace “ unwarranted favor “ and have written several books explaining this is a different gospel from the gospel that Christ of course preached . They tell people if you have to do anything it isn’t the gospel of grace , and explain the gospel of the kingdom isn’t for you it was only for Israel’s tribes

Paul Ellis actually writes plainly “ Christs words are good but not for you “

they then remove any verse that teaches people repentance and obedience , any scripture that tells us about enduring tribulation , anything teaching good works , repentance all the real stuff and then they quote a verse like this

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and explain that’s what they are doing “ properly dividing the word of truth , by removing anything that requires you to believe and do like repent , confess sins , believe the real gospel ect

I’m just saying I’ve don’t the circle several times and already knew about that doctrine years ago sonsinjects that are biblical just take the. On a huge irrelevant circle to avoid what’s plainly written

just trying to save you some time I’m. Ot sure your aware of the source of this grace doctrine and how impossible it is to convince them because they have another idea all together than someone like you who follows what’s written in scripture without “ dividing “ all the real stuff out

 

[DavidTree]

this is a circle his premise is that there’s another different gospel so it’s never going to make sense he’s read a lot of Joseph prince and Paul Ellis

to understand where he is coming from you would have to look at thier website and see how they operate and what they teach

they’ve taken this phrase


“But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭20:24‬ ‭

then they define grace “ unwarranted favor “ and have written several books explaining this is a different gospel from the gospel that Christ of course preached . They tell people if you have to do anything it isn’t the gospel of grace , and explain the gospel of the kingdom isn’t for you it was only for Israel’s tribes

Paul Ellis actually writes plainly “ Christs words are good but not for you “

they then remove any verse that teaches people repentance and obedience , any scripture that tells us about enduring tribulation , anything teaching good works , repentance all the real stuff and then they quote a verse like this

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and explain that’s what they are doing “ properly dividing the word of truth , by removing anything that requires you to believe and do like repent , confess sins , believe the real gospel ect

I’m just saying I’ve don’t the circle several times and already knew about that doctrine years ago sonsinjects that are biblical just take the. On a huge irrelevant circle to avoid what’s plainly written

just trying to save you some time I’m. Ot sure your aware of the source of this grace doctrine and how impossible it is to convince them because they have another idea all together than someone like you who follows what’s written in scripture without “ dividing “ all the real stuff out

Yeah, this guy has a Religion Blender like TDW and CV5.
It is made by a company called 'Intellect'.
Just add Scripture and your own words and you can whip up any type of false doctrine to your choosing.

We seek Refuge in Christ alone and His Holy Spirit.

Every word of God is pure:
He is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Add thou not unto his words,
lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yeah, this guy has a Religion Blender like TDW and CV5.
It is made by a company called 'Intellect'.
Just add Scripture and your own words and you can whip up any type of false doctrine to your choosing.

We seek Refuge in Christ alone and His Holy Spirit.

Every word of God is pure:
He is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Add thou not unto his words,
lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6

yes we are cut from the same cloth neither perfect but always pursuing the right word of this I’m confident

I was just butting in lol to make sure you were aware where his ideas come from anyways brother as always your posts even in a circle always have some good word

 

[DavidTree]

This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
2 Cor 13:1

But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Matt 18:16


Your Truth moment (on this subject) is to find the other Witnesses who confirm what the Apostle Paul said- 2 Thess 2:3

CLUE - the Apostle John

 

[DavidTree]

yes we are cut from the same cloth neither perfect but always pursuing the right word of this I’m confident

I was just butting in lol to make sure you were aware where his ideas come from anyways brother as always your posts even in a circle always have some good word

PLEASE - ALWAYS DO - saves me so much time - THANK YOU

i woner if anyone reported him of heresy = two separate gospels

 

[Pilgrimshope]

PLEASE - ALWAYS DO - saves me so much time - THANK YOU

Always worth trying maybe you will succeed where I have failed in my own attempts. My witness becomes frustrated going in circles and I find myself dragged into arguments but it’s not personal it’s that I hate that doctrine with a passion because it’s deceptive to the ends of the earth

 

[MattforJesus]

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul said let no person deceive you by any means for the saints will not be gathered unto Christ until the man of sin is exposed claiming to be God which happens halfway through the 7 years period.

So no matter how you look at it before the 7 tears period, or before the last three and one half years there is no pre-trib resurrection.

The resurrection will not happen until the man of sin claims to be God.

And why is that?

Because as long as the world has salvation available to them the saints will remain on earth for they represent the truth.

And there is only 2 resurrections which is one of the saints before the millennial reign, and one of the dead after the millennial reign.

The world has salvation until they take the mark of the beast and then salvation is no longer available to them which is the fulness of the Gentiles come in and then the saints can be resurrected.

The falling away happens at the end of the first three and one half years because the world stopped the preaching of the Gospel on a world wide scale in favor of the new age movement interpretation of the Bible and religions.

This allows the man of sin to be able to rule over them according to what the world wants and the New Age Christ will deceive all people who do not love God and when the saints are resurrected the Bible says then comes the end, and all things are finished for it is over for the rulership of man on earth, and over for sin on earth.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zec 14:5 and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

The battle of Armageddon which the saints had to be resurrected to come back with God.

The resurrection will not happen until the man of sin claims to be God halfway through the 7 years period.

But how long afterwards?

The Bible says the beast shall make war against the saints and prevail against them.

And they shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years.

And when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people then all things are finished, which then comes the end when the Son shall deliver the kingdom up to the Father.

And for people that think the wrath of God is during the 7 years period it is wrong.

And why is that?

Because God is allowing the world to have their way for 7 years so He will not put them down until the time is over.

Salvation is available for the first three and one half years so God's wrath would not be there for it is the same as now salvation available to the world.

The beast has power to continue for the last three and one half years which he can only have that power if God allows him to have it so the wrath of God is not there.

The seals are not the wrath of God.

And the trumpets are not the wrath of God but are warnings to the world to turn to God and repent of their sins which after the 6th trumpet the world does not turn to God but keep trying to have the world the way they want it, and trying to have peace on earth, and not acknowledging a personal God.

An example WW1, set up League of Nations, did not turn to God.

WW2, set up United Nations, and then set up United Religions, did not turn to God.

And that pattern will continue until the 6th trumpet which is Islam against the world because the world stopped the preaching of anything contrary to the new age movement and the religion of Islam rebelled.

They did not turn to God so He allowed the New Age Christ to rule over them.

 

[ewq1938]

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Here the second coming is called "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. and the rapture is called "our gathering together unto him".

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

This day of Christ is directly linked to the two events of verse 1. Clearly the day of Christ is the day of the second coming and rapture. Paul wants people NOT to be troubled or confused about when these two events happen.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Do not let anyone deceive you about when those two events happen! That day (second coming and rapture) will NOT take place until the Apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin take place and those are great tribulation related events. This proves that Paul placed the rapture after the events of the great tribulation and it's the second time Paul did this. He did the same here:



2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (also known as the second coming) , and by our gathering together unto him, (reference to the Rapture)

There is a reference to the second coming and the Rapture! That's the subject!

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

A second second coming reference!


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

That is the Antichrist! Claiming to be God causes the Apostasy or departing from the Christian faith and that takes place withing the great Tribulation. Paul teaches that the second coming and Rapture will NOT happen until the Apostasy and revealing of the man of sin happens plus he mentions that this man of sin will show himself as God and we know that happening during the great tribulation.


2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The context is regarding the timing of the return of Christ and the rapture. That cannot happen until two important things occur.

1. The falling away/Apostasy
2. and the revealing of the Antichrist

 

[DavidTree]

Always worth trying maybe you will succeed where I have failed in my own attempts. My witness becomes frustrated going in circles and I find myself dragged into arguments but it’s not personal it’s that I hate that doctrine with a passion because it’s deceptive to the ends of the earth

i used to be the same until i fully yielded to the Holy Spirit and allowed Him to lead the way
What i found was that He teaches me through their error by showing the clear harmony of Scripture against their words.
Scripture cannot lie - this is PEACE for us.
Amen

 

[DavidTree]

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul said let no person deceive you by any means for the saints will not be gathered unto Christ until the man of sin is exposed claiming to be God which happens halfway through the 7 years period.

So no matter how you look at it before the 7 tears period, or before the last three and one half years there is no pre-trib resurrection.

The resurrection will not happen until the man of sin claims to be God.

And why is that?

Because as long as the world has salvation available to them the saints will remain on earth for they represent the truth.

And there is only 2 resurrections which is one of the saints before the millennial reign, and one of the dead after the millennial reign.

The world has salvation until they take the mark of the beast and then salvation is no longer available to them which is the fulness of the Gentiles come in and then the saints can be resurrected.

The falling away happens at the end of the first three and one half years because the world stopped the preaching of the Gospel on a world wide scale in favor of the new age movement interpretation of the Bible and religions.

This allows the man of sin to be able to rule over them according to what the world wants and the New Age Christ will deceive all people who do not love God and when the saints are resurrected the Bible says then comes the end, and all things are finished for it is over for the rulership of man on earth, and over for sin on earth.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zec 14:5 and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

The battle of Armageddon which the saints had to be resurrected to come back with God.

The resurrection will not happen until the man of sin claims to be God halfway through the 7 years period.

But how long afterwards?

The Bible says the beast shall make war against the saints and prevail against them.

And they shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years.

And when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people then all things are finished, which then comes the end when the Son shall deliver the kingdom up to the Father.

And for people that think the wrath of God is during the 7 years period it is wrong.

And why is that?

Because God is allowing the world to have their way for 7 years so He will not put them down until the time is over.

Salvation is available for the first three and one half years so God's wrath would not be there for it is the same as now salvation available to the world.

The beast has power to continue for the last three and one half years which he can only have that power if God allows him to have it so the wrath of God is not there.

The seals are not the wrath of God.

And the trumpets are not the wrath of God but are warnings to the world to turn to God and repent of their sins which after the 6th trumpet the world does not turn to God but keep trying to have the world the way they want it, and trying to have peace on earth, and not acknowledging a personal God.

An example WW1, set up League of Nations, did not turn to God.

WW2, set up United Nations, and then set up United Religions, did not turn to God.

And that pattern will continue until the 6th trumpet which is Islam against the world because the world stopped the preaching of anything contrary to the new age movement and the religion of Islam rebelled.

They did not turn to God so He allowed the New Age Christ to rule over them.

AGREE and please review Revelation 6: 9-11 and Revelation 20: 4-6

 

[DavidTree]

Always worth trying maybe you will succeed where I have failed in my own attempts. My witness becomes frustrated going in circles and I find myself dragged into arguments but it’s not personal it’s that I hate that doctrine with a passion because it’s deceptive to the ends of the earth

We already have succeeded - God has not allowed us to fall into error and He has strengthened us even the more so against it.

Our Swords are sharper then ever.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

i used to be the same until i fully yielded to the Holy Spirit and allowed Him to lead the way
What i found was that He teaches me through their error by showing the clear harmony of Scripture against their words.
Scripture cannot lie - this is PEACE for us.
Amen

that’s a good approach brother , I think for me I do t like that doctrine because about 20 years ago it caused me a lot of wasted time until I started seeing what they had done by opening the Bible and asking the lord why nothing was changing in my life .

Actually used to buy into it many years back and think I learned a distain for it because I heard the truth in scripture . The devil never says “ I’m the devil don’t listen to God “ but instead he says in a friendly voice “ listen to Me friend , I’ll explain it all for you , trust me I’m on your side the fruit isn’t going to harm you that’s not a word for you “

I’ve learned for Myself it’s better when the serpent starts talking , to pick up a nice heavy rock and bash him with it while he’s distracted …, lol which might not be a good idea for my spirit , so I try to avoid that particular doctrine at least until someday I might have better patience with it

 

[Pilgrimshope]

We already have succeeded - God has not allowed us to fall into error and He has strengthened us even the more so against it.

Our Swords are sharper then ever.

iron against iron does sharpen us up , there’s a lot of iron here in this forum . I agree there , I actually came out of some deceptions I learned many years ago thanks to the word and some good women in my life who taught me about believing the word and shutting out the world

I can’t remember what day but noticed this and it stuck as a daily prayer in various ways

“If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[DavidTree]

that’s a good approach brother , I think for me I do t like that doctrine because about 20 years ago it caused me a lot of wasted time until I started seeing what they had done by opening the Bible and asking the lord why nothing was changing in my life .

Actually used to buy into it many years back and think I learned a distain for it because I heard the truth in scripture . The devil never says “ I’m the devil don’t listen to God “ but instead he says in a friendly voice “ listen to Me friend , I’ll explain it all for you , trust me I’m on your side the fruit isn’t going to harm you that’s not a word for you “

I’ve learned for Myself it’s better when the serpent starts talking , to pick up a nice heavy rock and bash him with it while he’s distracted …, lol which might not be a good idea for my spirit , so I try to avoid that particular doctrine at least until someday I might have better patience with it

The Lord will also greatly bless you when you pray for these men. There hearts are blinded, they need God to save them from error.
Just as He did for us.
Good Night Brother

 

[Omegatime]

I normally stay away from debates like this but this is so important I am throwing in what I see. I do believe the word apostasia should have been translated as departure IMO. The timing is another matter.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The Lord will also greatly bless you when you pray for these men. There hearts are blinded, they need God to save them from error.
Just as He did for us.
Good Night Brother

oh yeah always praying for many many folk sleep well dear brother

 

[DavidTree]

I normally stay away from debates like this but this is so important I am throwing in what I see. I do believe the word apostasia should have been translated as departure IMO. The timing is another matter.

First Commandment of God that saves us - Believe His Word - only His Word = Genesis, Deut 4:1-2, Prov 30:5-6, Rev 22:18-19

'Falling Away' to 'Departure' does not change anything - the Departure is from Truth to the Man of Sin.

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established = Deut 19:15, Matt 18:16, 2 Cor 13:1

This other Faithful Witness is the Apostle John - He also wrote in full agreement to 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Apostle Paul: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Apostle John: Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
1 John 2:18-19

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established = Deut 19:15, Matt 18:16, 2 Cor 13:1

It is complete - the Apostles Paul and John agree -
Apostle Paul - "falling away first"
Apostle John - "they went out from us" -

Apostle Paul - man of sin shall come first
Apostle John - the Antichrist is coming and we are already in the last hour for many antichrists are in the world

Member JTB pointed out a THIRD FAITHFUL WITNESS - the Lord Jesus Christ - Matthew 24:10

Mathew 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,

This is a very serious matter - adding to and taking away from God's words is the sin that leads to heresy and death.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom;
A good understanding have all those who do His commandments.
His praise endures forever.

The two individuals who are seeking to establish their heresy lack understanding and the fear of the Lord.