Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[CS1]

Yes, the blood of Jesus is just for the Elect:

[Jhn 17:9-10 KJV]
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

that is not what the word of God says Jesus died for all. The use of John 17:9-10 is not eh full context of that text. You are using out of context. Jesu was praying for HIS disciples. that was starting in verse 6 of that chapter and then Jesus says something after He prayed for them that you did not see or overlook starting at verse 20

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

the context of the WORLD here is ALL

 

[rogerg]

Would a just and righteous judge hold two people who are guilty of the same crime under different standards? Considering both are equal?

If the judge lets one person off just because he said so. And does not let the other person off. The other person has grounds for a retrial. Because the judge holds a different standard.

You said "guilty of the same crime", so then, law is involved, right?
Were it even possible for us to do what you suggest, that would make ourselves our own Savior.
So being THE Savior, what part do you think Christ plays in salvation?

 

[rogerg]

the idea that obeying God is seen as a work for salvation is unbiblical The Holy Spirit convicts you, and you see your need for Christ, you can surrender and repent or reject Him.

As I mentioned in my last reply, what part as THE Savior does Christ then play?

 

[CS1]

We are talking about law. When the word "obey" is used, what is to be obeyed? If not the law then what?

obeying was accounted as righteousness to Abraham before the law of Circumcision those who come to God must believe that HE is God and rewarded of them that seek Him wholeheartedly.

Jesus said HE is the only way the only Truth and the only life know one goes to the Father but through him. Jesus also said He would not turn away anyone who called out to Him for salvation. That is a Powerful saving God we have.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
" What that would mean is that salvation is by the death of Christ. So, show me ANY verse that actually says that. But save your time. There are NO such verses. What you claim is only your opinion."

You are trying to separate things that can't be separated. They are a whole. Without 1 you cannot have the other.

You are just trying to excuse your lack of verses that say what you claim.

Anything can be separated. Just because several things can occur at the same time doesn't mean we can't study each of them separately. Your statement is just an excuse because you don't have any evidence for your claims.

You can't have reconciliation without Salvation. You can't have Salvation without Reconciliation.

Of course. But what does that prove?

Being Righteous before God means that your sins have been paid for and God no longer counts them against you. Which is the gist of Salvation. You can't have Salvation without Righteousness and you can't have Righteousness without Salvation.

Again, what does that prove? The reason we have righteousnous is through faith. On that basis. Not on the basis of Christ's death.

If the Lord Jesus has died for everyones sins then everyone is Righteous. Period.[/QUOTE]
No, wrong. Jesus removed the sin debty by paying it for everyone. But the Bible is FULL of verses that clearly state that salvation is on the basis of faith, not Christ's death.

And you don't have any verse that says that salvation is obtained by Christ's death. No, it is obtained on the basis of faith in Christ.

If everyone is Righteous before God then there can be no condemnation. And we can easily see that contradicts scripture.

I'm glad you mentioned "condemnation". Let's see what the Bible says about who will be condemned.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

In BOTH verses we have the phrase "have NOT believed". That's who will be condemned.

And "have NOT believed" means "have NEVER believed", whether you like it or not.

If you "have not eaten" brussel sprouts, then you "have NEVER eaten" them. Or NEVER EVER.

 

[CS1]

As I mentioned in my last reply, what part as THE Savior does Christ then play?

the substitutionary work on the Cross as one without sin who The Father accepted as payment for all. His being raised from the Dead speaks to His Eternal promises to each who have placed their faith in Christ Because HE lives we shall live also.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You said "guilty of the same crime", so then, law is involved, right?

What law was the people in noahs day be charged with?

Were it even possible for us to do what you suggest, that would make ourselves our own Savior.
So being THE Savior, what part do you think Christ plays in salvation?

This is not true my friend. I can only be my own savior if I have the capabilty to pay for my own sins. I have no ability. hence I can not save myself.

Our savior has the ability to pay for our sins so we can be set free from the penalty of sin.

So we have 2 choices.

1. God offers the same for every man woman and child. yet will not force it on anyone. hence he who believes is condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already

2. God only offers it to a select group of people and forces them to receive it and does not even give the other group a chance to RECEIVE his gift.

#2 does not look good on a character of a person who claims to be loving and righteous.

 

[rogerg]

that is not what the word of God says Jesus died for all. The use of John 17:9-10 is not eh full context of that text. You are using out of context. Jesu was praying for HIS disciples. that was starting in verse 6 of that chapter and then Jesus says something after He prayed for them that you did not see or overlook starting at verse 20

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

the context of the WORLD here is ALL

ALL those from the group the Father GAVE Him. Otherwise there would be a contradiction, and contradictions
are not possible in the Bible

[Jhn 17:9 KJV] 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ALL those from the group the Father GAVE Him. Otherwise there would be a contradiction, and contradictions
are not possible in the Bible

[Jhn 17:9 KJV] 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

it is only a contradiction in your mind

He told us who THEY WERE

they who BELIEVE.

 

[rogerg]

What law was the people in noahs day be charged with?

Weren't they warned of the coming flood? But I thought we were discussing the spiritual, not the earthly

This is not true my friend. I can only be my own savior if I have the capabilty to pay for my own sins. I have no ability. hence I can not save myself.

Well, if you are saying there is even only one thing a person must do to become saved, and if they do it they're saved, and if they
don't they're not saved, then should they do it, they've saved themselves. If they don't they're not saved, they they are their own savior.
How could it be otherwise?
A true Savior saves those who shouldn't be saved, and don't want salvation according to His salvation - yet, they become saved anyway

 

[rogerg]

it is only a contradiction in your mind

He told us who THEY WERE

they who BELIEVE.

No, He said they who are of the group He identified are they who would believe. His prayer was for those the Father gave Him

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Weren't they warned of the coming flood? But I thought we were discussing the spiritual, not the earthly

What does the flood have to do with their eternal destiny?

Well, if you are saying there is even only one thing a person must do to become saved, and if they do it they're saved, and if they
don't they're not saved, then should they do it, they've saved themselves. If they don't they're not saved, they they are their own savior.
How could it be otherwise?
A true Savior saves those who shouldn't be saved, and don't want salvation according to His salvation - yet, they become saved anyway

Your not listening

I CAN'T SAVE MYSELF

God OFFERS me salvation based on what his son did

me accepting a gift is NOT ME EARNING SALVATION.

Me denying his gift. is not me EARNING CONDEMNATION.

All have sinned and fall short. All is all.

WE ALL earned condemnation.

I do not earn condemnation because I did not believe. I do not earn salvation because I believe

I have no idea where this type of thinking comes from

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Basically in John 10:28. Those given eternal life shall NEVER perish. Real clear.

Now you are quoting half of a statement?

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:27-28

Nope. v.27 is NOT a condition (hearing and following) for receiving eternal life. There are NO words that indicate a condition.

The condition for receiving eternal life was taught by Jesus in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

So, the MOMENT one believes, they become a BELIEVER and therefore, according to Jesus, receive eternal life.

So the promise of NEVER PERISHING is applicable WHEN a person believes in Christ.

Lifestyle is NOT an issue in salvation, as you obviously believe.

The result of hearing and following (obeying) the Lord Jesus Christ is receiving eternal life.
Refuted. See above.




JPT

 

[rogerg]

Our savior has the ability to pay for our sins so we can be set free from the penalty of sin.

So we have 2 choices.

1. God offers the same for every man woman and child. yet will not force it on anyone. hence he who believes is condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already

2. God only offers it to a select group of people and forces them to receive it and does not even give the other group a chance to RECEIVE his gift.

#2 does not look good on a character of a person who claims to be loving and righteous.

#2 is an assessment according to you. God tell us of the following:

[Rom 9:14-16 KJV]
14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, the blood of Jesus is just for the Elect:

[Jhn 17:9-10 KJV]
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

These verses do NOT support your claim. Yes, Jesus prays for believers. It does NOT say anything about His death. Esp not about His death ONLY FOR believers.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, He said they who are of the group He identified are they who would believe. His prayer was for those the Father gave Him

8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.


20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;

Sorry my friend. You are not correct in your thinking here.

They are those who WOULD BELIEVE ME THROUGH THEIR WORD, who have seen, heard and believed

 

[rogerg]

Your not listening

Okay, if you're going to get rude, we'll terminate the discussion right now. Up to you.
If you want a reasonable even tempered discussion we can continue

 

[eternally-gratefull]

#2 is an assessment according to you. God tell us of the following:

[Rom 9:14-16 KJV]
14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

This concerns Gods choosing of Israel my friend. Not God choosing who would be saved or who would not

It would do you well to go to the OT quotes and see who and what God is talking about.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay, if you're going to get rude, we'll terminate the discussion right now. Up to you.
If you want a reasonable even tempered discussion we can continue

How is me saying you are not listening to me being rude?

How many times do I have to repeat myself and you continue to not get what I am saying before I am allowed to question if you are listening to me or not?

Can you please respond to the post. And show you at least understand what I am trying to tell you?

You keep telling me I am saying I save myself. I HAVE SAID NO SUCH THING.

 

[rogerg]

the substitutionary work on the Cross as one without sin who The Father accepted as payment for all. His being raised from the Dead speaks to His Eternal promises to each who have placed their faith in Christ Because HE lives we shall live also.

But no one can truly place their faith in Him unless given to them by the Father:


[Jhn 6:37, 44 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ...
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.