Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.

[justbyfaith]

Jesus did in fact say that God was His Father, making Himself equal with the Father (John 5:17-18). It is John's estimation as the one who penned the gospel of John, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, that Jesus made Himself equal with God. It was not only the estimation of the scribes and Pharisees that He did this but it was the estimation of John also.

I find that when people do not like what is written in the kjv, they will often say that it is a bad translation; when in all reality they have itching ears that want to hear something other than what is written in the kjv (see 2 Timothy 4:3). They heap to themselves teachers, in the translators of other versions, to tell them what their itching ears want to hear.

But believing that the kjv is inspired and inerrant is an aspect of the narrow way that leads to life (Matthew 7:13-14), impaho.

Therefore also, it is an accurate translation in Psalms 50:1, to say that the mighty God is Jehovah.

And "the Father of eternity" is still the Father; so you are going to have to change that scripture (Isaiah 9:6) one more time in order to get the effect that you desire.

The Father is indeed the Most High God....and so is the Son and the Holy Ghost...

For He is Triune in nature.

God Himself is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) and He is a Person. So, yes, God is a Person and it is the same Spirit who inhabits eternity without flesh who also dwells in the Person of the Son in human flesh. And Spirit, here, does denote personality. "Spirit" does not just denote energy or life force but it is referring to the essence of the Person.

 

[CS1]

The Father and the Son are not the same "entity" and do not carry the same level of authority.

The word "god' causes a lot of confusion... Although in our English translations we see the same word "god" all throughout scripture, these are different words in the ancient language that was revived into what we now know as "Hebrew". In many places in scripture, a better translation for "god" would be "godkind" (Aleim/Elohim).... That word for "god" indicates entities residing in the spiritual realm, rather than "mankind" (Adam)... which reside in the physical. The word by itself does not denote level of authority, but rather an existence in which the physical body of mankind is not needed for.

The words "Aloh/Eloah"... or "Allah/Elah" (found throughout Daniel and Ezra) are the singular forms of these "gods". Although they can be used to refer to The Father, they are not specific to him. Like most places in scripture, you need to understand the context to know who is being referred to. The word translated as "god" that denotes rank more than the other words is the word "AL/EL". This is the title that "IAO/יהוה" referred to Himself as to Abraham (Gen 17:1), Jacob (Gen 35:11) and Moses (Exo 6:3). It means in English just how it used to sound in ancient Hebrew, "ALL".... He is The ALL and is in All things. His many titles reflect that. However, even with that title... it is still used in scripture to refer to gods other than The Most High (Dan 11:36 for example). So again... context is key.

With that said, being called "god" can mean different things... so the Messiah being referred to as "god" does not carry as much weight in scripture as people make it out to be today. The Messiah himself called the Jews that were attempting to stone him "gods" in John 10:34... in which he was referring to Psa 82:6. So is the Messiah "god"... sure, but again the word god does not specify rank. The Son is "God", but not The "Most High" God.

I look at the relationship between The Father and Son similar to how scripture speaks of how the relationship between husband and wife should work: When the Messiah says "I and the Father are one". That does not mean one entity, nor one level of authority... but rather "one" in purpose/message/representation. Likewise, when husband and wife become "one flesh"... this does not mean they are no longer two distinct entities and carry the same level of authority. Either person now just represents the "Family unit". There is still a chain of command though.... Man.. Woman.. Children. We are the children in this scenario... the Messiah being the woman. We have to follow the chain of command... Nobody gets to The Father but through Him.

I disagree with your point on two things

1. Jesus said" before Abraham was, I AM " John 8:58 For this Statement, The Jews sought to stone him. Jesus did not use the term Eohym in the I AM statement it was I am the self-existent one. Jesus was saying HE was and IS eternal.

2. Jesus said all power & authority has Been Given unto HIM. The Word Lord means Supreme Authority. Matthew 28:28.

 

[CS1]

Sometimes I feel like the difference between oneness and trinitarianism is semantics, or a disagreement over the word "person".

that is because of pride. they both are trying to explain fully what no one can.

 

[MalikB]

Jesus did in fact say that God was His Father, making Himself equal with the Father (John 5:17-18). It is John's estimation as the one who penned the gospel of John, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, that Jesus made Himself equal with God. It was not only the estimation of the scribes and Pharisees that He did this but it was the estimation of John also.

I find that when people do not like what is written in the kjv, they will often say that it is a bad translation; when in all reality they have itching ears that want to hear something other than what is written in the kjv (see 2 Timothy 4:3). They heap to themselves teachers, in the translators of other versions, to tell them what their itching ears want to hear.

But believing that the kjv is inspired and inerrant is an aspect of the narrow way that leads to life (Matthew 7:13-14), impaho.

Therefore also, it is an accurate translation in Psalms 50:1, to say that the mighty God is Jehovah.

And "the Father of eternity" is still the Father; so you are going to have to change that scripture (Isaiah 9:6) one more time in order to get the effect that you desire.

The Father is indeed the Most High God....and so is the Son and the Holy Ghost...

For He is Triune in nature.

God Himself is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) and He is a Person. So, yes, God is a Person and it is the same Spirit who inhabits eternity without flesh who also dwells in the Person of the Son in human flesh. And Spirit, here, does denote personality. "Spirit" does not just denote energy or life force but it is referring to the essence of the Person.

Again, John 5:18 is according to the Jews. It does not say in that verse that the Messiah said he was equal to The Father. That was assumed based on him saying God is his Father. So if I say God is my Father... does that mean I'm also saying I'm equal to Him?

There is a room called "Bible Versions" where I address many things dealing with the subject... I don't want to get too far off topic and turn this room into that. What I addressed about Psalms 50:1 is not specific for the KJV... all English bible versions that I'm aware of have issues with translating multiple Hebrew words into the same English word, "God".

The order of the words "father" and "eternal/eternity" do make a difference because one way would speak of the attribute of the "father", and the other way would speak of what the "father" is in charge of. There is also a lot of debate on Isaiah 9:6 because the verbs in the Masoretic text are past tense. Regardless... This verse in not a nowhere near a clear indication that this is speaking of יהוה.

There is a lot of assumptions that have to be added to the text to draw the conclusion that The Father and Messiah are the same entity... unless you are aware of some other scriptures that support your claim. I know that the Messiah was given power over heaven and earth (Mat 28:18), so from mankind's perspective there doesn't need to be anything higher than that... However, there was an existence before heaven and earth were created. Are there scriptures that say the Messiah is The Most High god, or above all the gods like in Psalms 95:3 and 135:5?

 

[MalikB]

I disagree with your point on two things

1. Jesus said" before Abraham was, I AM " John 8:58 For this Statement, The Jews sought to stone him. Jesus did not use the term Eohym in the I AM statement it was I am the self-existent one. Jesus was saying HE was and IS eternal.

2. Jesus said all power & authority has Been Given unto HIM. The Word Lord means Supreme Authority. Matthew 28:28.

Elohim is not used at all in the NT.... Different language. I don't disagree that he was there in the beginning... "Let US make man in OUR image." I just don't believe he is the same entity or has the same authority as his Father.

I just mentioned Mat 28:18 in my last post if you want to read that. The word "lord" is not limited to meaning "supreme authority" (See Mat 10:25, 21:40, Matthew chapter 18, just to name a few)... When you see that its not always capitalized and read how its used in context, it is clear that many times it just used as a title of honor and respect.

 

[CS1]

Elohim is not used at all in the NT.... Different language. I don't disagree that he was there in the beginning... "Let US make man in OUR image." I just don't believe he is the same entity or has the same authority as his Father.

I just mentioned Mat 28:18 in my last post if you want to read that. The word "lord" is not limited to meaning "supreme authority" (See Mat 10:25, 21:40, Matthew chapter 18, just to name a few)... When you see that its not always capitalized and read how its used in context, it is clear that many times it just used as a title of honor and respect.

Jesus was not created IF He is the Son of the One true God HE has all the attributes of THe Father.

Jesus received worship as God John 20
He foreknew as God Matthew 24
He was Called Lord and God John 20

Jesus has no beginning the Spirit ofChrist is Eternal as Jesus said " I AM"

The Context of the Lord after Jesu has risen from the Dead is not only of respect and reverence and honor IT is the very Statement all will bow their Knee to and Confess with their Mouth. Jesus is Fully God and fully man.

 

[CS1]

Elohim is not used at all in the NT.... Different language. I don't disagree that he was there in the beginning... "Let US make man in OUR image." I just don't believe he is the same entity or has the same authority as his Father.

I just mentioned Mat 28:18 in my last post if you want to read that. The word "lord" is not limited to meaning "supreme authority" (See Mat 10:25, 21:40, Matthew chapter 18, just to name a few)... When you see that its not always capitalized and read how its used in context, it is clear that many times it just used as a title of honor and respect.

El Elohim is used in the NT just because the Greeks had a different language when Jesus said to the Jews " I AM" it was not understood as in the Greek for gods Theo as a word of many gods, it was I AM I was and IAM to Come. where do we see this >?

Revelation chapter 1:8

8“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”


Jesus said :

1. I AM the Way. I AM the Truth and I AM the Life
2. I AM the DOOR
3. I AM THe Good Shepard
4. I AM the Bread of Life
5. I AM the True Vine
6. I AM the Resurrection and the Life
7. I AM The Light of the World

When Jesus said these things HE is saying I AM the DOOR, the WAY, The Truth, and the Life

Jesus is saying is not saying I am a door of many doors or a Way of many ways or a truth of many truth's

Jesus is saying I AM THE ONLY DOOR the Only Way, the only Truth, and the Only Life


There is no other. I AM!!! This is why the Jews wanted to stone Him. Please remember Jesus was Crucified because HE said HE was GOD.

 

[MalikB]

Jesus was not created IF He is the Son of the One true God HE has all the attributes of THe Father.

Jesus received worship as God John 20
He foreknew as God Matthew 24
He was Called Lord and God John 20

Jesus has no beginning the Spirit ofChrist is Eternal as Jesus said " I AM"

The Context of the Lord after Jesu has risen from the Dead is not only of respect and reverence and honor IT is the very Statement all will bow their Knee to and Confess with their Mouth. Jesus is Fully God and fully man.

I already agreed that his spirit was there in the beginning.... and in my earlier posts I pointed out that spirit (energy/lifeforce) is not the same as soul (mind/identity/personality).

You are going to have to leave the exact verses you are speaking of. I looked at John 20 for example and all I saw was that him and The Father are not the same entity:


John 20:17

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

[AandW]

Personally, I agree With God's Word Of Truth!:

1Jn 5:7 "For there are THREE That Bear Record in heaven,
The Father, The Word, AND The Holy Ghost: and These THREE Are ONE."

Col_2:9 "For In HIM DWELLETH The FULLNESS Of The Godhead Bodily!"

By faith I accept and believe What God Says, even IF I don't understand IT! Amen?

(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship, today?)

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!

ALL NEW TESTAMENTS are generally Translated from the Codex Sinaiticus, the FIRST GREEK WRITTEN PUT TOGETHER BIBLE:

It is 300 years older than the Latin Vulgate used in the English KJV.

So, it's More Authentic than all other New Testament Versions:


And 1 John 5:6-8 is SUPPOSED TO READ LIKE:

6 This is he that came through water and blood, Jesus Christ: not in the water only, but in the water and in the blood; and it is the Spirit that testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

7 For they that testify are three,

8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are one.



The Codex Sinaiticus proves the [triune] Version of 1 John 5:6-8 to be an ADD ON to the Holy Word of God!

Not Originally written by John!

Added Later!

Not Inspired!

 

[AandW]

El Elohim is used in the NT just because the Greeks had a different language when Jesus said to the Jews " I AM" it was not understood as in the Greek for gods Theo as a word of many gods, it was I AM I was and IAM to Come. where do we see this >?

Revelation chapter 1:8

8“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”


Jesus said :

1. I AM the Way. I AM the Truth and I AM the Life
2. I AM the DOOR
3. I AM THe Good Shepard
4. I AM the Bread of Life
5. I AM the True Vine
6. I AM the Resurrection and the Life
7. I AM The Light of the World

When Jesus said these things HE is saying I AM the DOOR, the WAY, The Truth, and the Life

Jesus is saying is not saying I am a door of many doors or a Way of many ways or a truth of many truth's

Jesus is saying I AM THE ONLY DOOR the Only Way, the only Truth, and the Only Life


There is no other. I AM!!! This is why the Jews wanted to stone Him. Please remember Jesus was Crucified because HE said HE was GOD.

Amen!

The Pharisees would have to understand the Hebrew Language to know what NAME Elohim gave to Moses to tell the People to know just WHOM Yeshua was [Claiming] to be, I AM!

That would NEVER be Greek!

This is a GENERATIONAL understanding of who God is and Will BE and BECOME kind of NAME!

This meaning behind the NAME is [centered] all around the LANGUAGE used by Elohim when speaking to Moses.

And the Religious Zealots of Christ's Day, would have to understand this Ancient Hebrewaic Language to know when Christ used that NAME, and it READS: they picked up STONES to kill Him because He was calling Himself, i AM!


Yep, Greek ain't gonna cut that conversation EVER!

 

[CS1]

I already agreed that his spirit was there in the beginning.... and in my earlier posts I pointed out that spirit (energy/lifeforce) is not the same as soul (mind/identity/personality).

You are going to have to leave the exact verses you are speaking of. I looked at John 20 for example and all I saw was that him and The Father are not the same entity:


John 20:17

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Jesus the Spirit of Christ is not an energy or lifeforce that is Hertecial and unbiblical. In Fact, that doctrine is JW's position on Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

I will leave specific verses in the text however, the Gospel of John speaks Primarily to the Deity of Christ. That is why it is not part of the synoptic Gospels In addition to this Gospel, John wrote the Book of Revelation which is the Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now for your Biblical verses of proof from John:

John 1:1,
John 20:28;
JOhn 10:30, 36
John 8:18; 14:7; John 12:45; 14:9


IN the Epistles :

Romans 9:5;

Phil 2:6 "6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: "

This is just a small amount of the overwhelming text and chapter, and books that speak of Jesus as God and Eternal and God.

 

[MalikB]

El Elohim is used in the NT just because the Greeks had a different language when Jesus said to the Jews " I AM" it was not understood as in the Greek for gods Theo as a word of many gods, it was I AM I was and IAM to Come. where do we see this >?

Revelation chapter 1:8

8“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”


Jesus said :

1. I AM the Way. I AM the Truth and I AM the Life
2. I AM the DOOR
3. I AM THe Good Shepard
4. I AM the Bread of Life
5. I AM the True Vine
6. I AM the Resurrection and the Life
7. I AM The Light of the World

When Jesus said these things HE is saying I AM the DOOR, the WAY, The Truth, and the Life

Jesus is saying is not saying I am a door of many doors or a Way of many ways or a truth of many truth's

Jesus is saying I AM THE ONLY DOOR the Only Way, the only Truth, and the Only Life


There is no other. I AM!!! This is why the Jews wanted to stone Him. Please remember Jesus was Crucified because HE said HE was GOD.

I already said this in my first post...

With that said, being called "god" can mean different things... so the Messiah being referred to as "god" does not carry as much weight in scripture as people make it out to be today. The Messiah himself called the Jews that were attempting to stone him "gods" in John 10:34... in which he was referring to Psa 82:6. So is the Messiah "god"... sure, but again the word god does not specify rank. The Son is "God", but not The "Most High" God.

Other people were called "god" and "son of god" in scripture too... being called "god" is not the the same is being THE MOST HIGH GOD.

He can even use some of the same terminology as his Father like "I AM"... Again, That does not mean they are the same entity or same level of authority.

I'm not sure why you posted Rev 1:8 because that is not Jesus speaking.

 

[CS1]

I already said this in my first post...

With that said, being called "god" can mean different things... so the Messiah being referred to as "god" does not carry as much weight in scripture as people make it out to be today. The Messiah himself called the Jews that were attempting to stone him "gods" in John 10:34... in which he was referring to Psa 82:6. So is the Messiah "god"... sure, but again the word god does not specify rank. The Son is "God", but not The "Most High" God.

Other people were called "god" and "son of god" in scripture too... being called "god" is not the the same is being THE MOST HIGH GOD.

He can even use some of the same terminology as his Father like "I AM"... Again, That does not mean they are the same entity or same level of authority.

I'm not sure why you posted Rev 1:8 because that is not Jesus speaking.

You must keep the Context of God = the one true God as Jesus was speaking of Himself as being. Jesus said HE was God.
The Jews took up stones because HE said that. He was Crucified and charged with Blasphemy not for saying he was a god BUT thee, GOD. Jesus was called the Messiah, Savior, Lord, and GOD.

The Son of God is God. Jesus said IF you have seen me you have seen my Father also for we are ONE Face to Face.

Itis, not other people these are the words of Jesus. The Context has to be kept in where Jesus said them. Of course, others who have said this means different things They were not Jesus were they? I AM is saying HE was the same as the Father Jesus is not an entity HE is God not energy but an eternal being HE was not created.

 

[CS1]

I already said this in my first post...

With that said, being called "god" can mean different things... so the Messiah being referred to as "god" does not carry as much weight in scripture as people make it out to be today. The Messiah himself called the Jews that were attempting to stone him "gods" in John 10:34... in which he was referring to Psa 82:6. So is the Messiah "god"... sure, but again the word god does not specify rank. The Son is "God", but not The "Most High" God.

Other people were called "god" and "son of god" in scripture too... being called "god" is not the the same is being THE MOST HIGH GOD.

He can even use some of the same terminology as his Father like "I AM"... Again, That does not mean they are the same entity or same level of authority.

I'm not sure why you posted Rev 1:8 because that is not Jesus speaking.[/QUOTE You did not provide one scriptural reference to support your position that was in context.

 

[CS1]

ALL NEW TESTAMENTS are generally Translated from the Codex Sinaiticus, the FIRST GREEK WRITTEN PUT TOGETHER BIBLE:

It is 300 years older than the Latin Vulgate used in the English KJV.

So, it's More Authentic than all other New Testament Versions:


And 1 John 5:6-8 is SUPPOSED TO READ LIKE:

6 This is he that came through water and blood, Jesus Christ: not in the water only, but in the water and in the blood; and it is the Spirit that testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

7 For they that testify are three,

8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are one.



The Codex Sinaiticus proves the [triune] Version of 1 John 5:6-8 to be an ADD ON to the Holy Word of God!

Not Originally written by John!

Added Later!

Not Inspired!

the context was not added it is there in the word of God even without this verse that you claim was added.

 

[MalikB]

You must keep the Context of God = the one true God as Jesus was speaking of Himself as being. Jesus said HE was God.
The Jews took up stones because HE said that. He was Crucified and charged with Blasphemy not for saying he was a god BUT thee, GOD. Jesus was called the Messiah, Savior, Lord, and GOD.

The Son of God is God. Jesus said IF you have seen me you have seen my Father also for we are ONE Face to Face.

Itis, not other people these are the words of Jesus. The Context has to be kept in where Jesus said them. Of course, others who have said this means different things They were not Jesus were they? I AM is saying HE was the same as the Father Jesus is not an entity HE is God not energy but an eternal being HE was not created.

Since u keep ignoring it...


John 10:34

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?


Psalm 82:6

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.


Husband and wife become "ONE flesh".....

Does this mean they too are the same entity and have the same level of authority?
Or are they still two separate beings with a chain of command in the family unit?

 

[CS1]

Since u keep ignoring it...


John 10:34

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?


Psalm 82:6

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.


Husband and wife become "ONE flesh".....

Does this mean they too are the same entity and have the same level of authority?
Or are they still two separate beings with a chain of command in the family unit?

a husband and wife in the context of one flesh are speaking on the sexual relationship in a marriage. That which is born of the Flesh is the flesh, that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit Jesus said in John 3:6

I have not ignored anything . Yet you are trying to use two different verses to explain away

what I provided.


Revelation chapter 1:8

8“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”


Jesus said :

1. I AM the Way. I AM the Truth and I AM the Life
2. I AM the DOOR
3. I AM THe Good Shepard
4. I AM the Bread of Life
5. I AM the True Vine
6. I AM the Resurrection and the Life
7. I AM The Light of the World

When Jesus said these things HE is saying I AM the DOOR, the WAY, The Truth, and the Life

Jesus is saying is not saying I am a door of many doors or a Way of many ways or a truth of many truth's

Jesus is saying I AM THE ONLY DOOR the Only Way, the only Truth, and the Only Life


There is no other. I AM!!! This is why the Jews wanted to stone Him. Please remember Jesus was Crucified because HE said HE was GOD.

 

[MalikB]

a husband and wife in the context of one flesh are speaking on the sexual relationship in a marriage. That which is born of the Flesh is the flesh, that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit Jesus said in John 3:6

I have not ignored anything . Yet you are trying to use two different verses to explain away

what I provided.


Revelation chapter 1:8

8“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”


Jesus said :

1. I AM the Way. I AM the Truth and I AM the Life
2. I AM the DOOR
3. I AM THe Good Shepard
4. I AM the Bread of Life
5. I AM the True Vine
6. I AM the Resurrection and the Life
7. I AM The Light of the World

When Jesus said these things HE is saying I AM the DOOR, the WAY, The Truth, and the Life

Jesus is saying is not saying I am a door of many doors or a Way of many ways or a truth of many truth's

Jesus is saying I AM THE ONLY DOOR the Only Way, the only Truth, and the Only Life


There is no other. I AM!!! This is why the Jews wanted to stone Him. Please remember Jesus was Crucified because HE said HE was GOD.

You didn't provide any evidence that the Messiah and the Father are the same being. So he uses the phrase "I AM" like his Father did is your evidence?

 

[MalikB]

I color coded the different "entities" so it would be easy to identify the different beings spoken about here....


Revelation 1:1-6


1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[CS1]

You didn't provide any evidence that the Messiah and the Father are the same being. So he uses the phrase "I AM" like his Father did is your evidence?

Again

You didn't provide any evidence that the Messiah and the Father are the same being. So he uses the phrase "I AM" like his Father did is your evidence?

Actually, I did You just don't agree IF the words of Jesu are not authoritative as you see them, there is no need to go further

You say no evidence yet, the human mind cannot fully comprehend the Triune God of the Bible. You cannot say it is not so, nor can I satisfy your human carnal mind .