The Falling Away - pre-trib rapture or ???
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Exactly. the rapture is something to look forward to, its a blessing, we are to wait expectantly for His coming,
He who testifies to these things says, "Surly I am coming quickly" Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus! Rev 22:20 or elsewhere, Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God, and saviour Jesus Christ
Where as the day of the Lord speaks of wrath, judgment, persecution, darkness etc
Who would be looking forward expectantly to that?
He who testifies to these things says, "Surly I am coming quickly" Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus! Rev 22:20 or elsewhere, Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God, and saviour Jesus Christ
Where as the day of the Lord speaks of wrath, judgment, persecution, darkness etc
Who would be looking forward expectantly to that?
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According 2 tesalonian 2 rapture /our being gathered to Him happen after man of sin or great tribulation.
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
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My understanding of what the bible says, is that there will be a resurrection of all those who are asleep in Christ(dead past saints) and also those of us who are currently alive changed, and then we will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air! I was just wondering when you thought this catching up was? or if you don't think it happens that's ok, its an interesting take.
To the contrary, the LORD Himself said that the Resurrection for His Church/His Elect/His Bride/His Saints will only take place at His Coming.
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
The Resurrection is permanently attached to His Coming - No random Resurrections of the Saints until His Coming.
The Two Witnesses in Revelation are killed by the Beast during the Great Tribulation, so this negates, once again any type of pre-trib error.
Secondly the Lord never uses the word resurrection to bring them back to life.
ONLY one place does the LORD use say the Resurrection occurs, in chapter 20 of Revelation.
No Resurrection until the Coming of the Lord - anyone who says other then His Words does not speak Truth.
No rapture until AFTER the Resurrection - 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18, Matt 24, 2 Thessalonians ch 2 and 1 John 2:18
Review these Scriptures and Revelation ch6 and ch 20
and remember what our Lord said to you in Revelation 22:18-19
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
The Resurrection is permanently attached to His Coming - No random Resurrections of the Saints until His Coming.
The Two Witnesses in Revelation are killed by the Beast during the Great Tribulation, so this negates, once again any type of pre-trib error.
Secondly the Lord never uses the word resurrection to bring them back to life.
ONLY one place does the LORD use say the Resurrection occurs, in chapter 20 of Revelation.
No Resurrection until the Coming of the Lord - anyone who says other then His Words does not speak Truth.
No rapture until AFTER the Resurrection - 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18, Matt 24, 2 Thessalonians ch 2 and 1 John 2:18
Review these Scriptures and Revelation ch6 and ch 20
and remember what our Lord said to you in Revelation 22:18-19
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Thanks, I can understand how you can see it that way, but I can also see the ambiguity of these verses means it can be taken either way, for instance notice in verse 1 it we are given the topic of our gathering/rapture to Jesus.
Now brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you.
In verse 2 we are now told the Thessalonians are shaken and troubled for they thought the day of the Lord(tribulation) had come
My understanding is the day of the Lord is the same as the day of judgment, the Tribulation etc
And next we are told in verse 3 that they or they were assured that that day has not come for the apostia must take place first?
I like a lot of others see that the meaning as departure, or our gathering together to Him. which is the topic introduced in verse one, which gives context to me.
To me it makes no sense for the word to be rebellion, for in the day of the Lord (the tribulation) their will be great apostasy and world wide rebellion, it will still be occurring and be led by the man of lawlessness. So in my opinion I see it as putting the cart in front of the horse while departure/rapture seems logical and fits better.
Not to get to much into it, but there is also a restraining, at work, and the man of lawlessness wont be revealed until the He who restrains is taken out of the way,
Now brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you.
In verse 2 we are now told the Thessalonians are shaken and troubled for they thought the day of the Lord(tribulation) had come
My understanding is the day of the Lord is the same as the day of judgment, the Tribulation etc
And next we are told in verse 3 that they or they were assured that that day has not come for the apostia must take place first?
I like a lot of others see that the meaning as departure, or our gathering together to Him. which is the topic introduced in verse one, which gives context to me.
To me it makes no sense for the word to be rebellion, for in the day of the Lord (the tribulation) their will be great apostasy and world wide rebellion, it will still be occurring and be led by the man of lawlessness. So in my opinion I see it as putting the cart in front of the horse while departure/rapture seems logical and fits better.
Not to get to much into it, but there is also a restraining, at work, and the man of lawlessness wont be revealed until the He who restrains is taken out of the way,
Here's what I see:
The living are raptured up to be together with Christ and the resurrected saints that came with Him. The dead saints aren't brought up from the Earth because they are in heaven and Christ brings them with him! The Resurrection occurs in heaven not the Earth.
2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
The new body is in heaven! Here Paul uses an analogy of a building, house and tabernacle to represent a physical body. One of these is an "earthly house" meaning the mortal flesh body we are born into and then a heavenly house which is in heaven that represents the new immortal body. This speaks of when a saved humans body dies (dissolved) that there is another body in heaven waiting for them and the time of Resurrection. There is nothing in the passage about the person's spirit returning to their dissolved/dead body and it being brought back to life. Paul speaks of a different body that already exists in heaven.
He speaks of the mortal body being dissolved and a new body that is waiting in heaven. Clearly that is not bringing the dissolved body back to life and changing it which would eliminate the need for the new body in heaven that he mentions.
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Paul writes that he desires to be clothed with the house from Heaven and says it is eternal in Heaven. That's the resurrected body and it is from heaven not from the Earth nor from an Earthly grave.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
The dead saints that resurrect are not brought to Jesus in a rapture but are brought with Jesus before the rapture even begins. That's a very important thing to recognize. Only those living saints are raptured and brought to Jesus and those he brought with him from heaven.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jesus comes WITH his resurrected saints and then the living saints are raptured up to meet them.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
The saints and angels make up the heavenly army that comes from heaven.
Jesus does NOT come alone, and does NOT rapture up the resurrected saints, and then has a second rapture of the living saints. There is only ONE rapture and it is only for those that hadn't died!
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Again, something awaits us in heaven. Is it not the new glorified body given in a heavenly resurrection?
If scripture interprets scripture then I submit:
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Though Jesus was a carpenter's son, I do not believe he is literally speaking of building a house in heaven for us but this being a reference to what 2 Corinthians 5:1 touches upon, a new body in heaven.
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
A mortal body is sown but a different body is what shall be received.
So, when it's time for second coming all the dead saints in heaven who are bodiless spirits will resurrect physically in heaven into the immortal body that was in heaven, then Christ will descend and the resurrected saints will follow Him, and when they reach the clouds above the Earth the living saints will be changed into immortal beings, then will be "caught up" in the Rapture to meet Christ and the heavenly saints and Christ will descend to his Earthly destination and all the will follow Him.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Since the Greek word G4862 "sun" means "union" the verse can be understood as:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together to have union/be united with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
That makes sense since Christ brings the resurrected with him from heaven and that the resurrection bodies are already in heaven according to Paul. There is nothing that places the resurrected dead on the Earth at the time of the rapture.
The living are raptured up to be together with Christ and the resurrected saints that came with Him. The dead saints aren't brought up from the Earth because they are in heaven and Christ brings them with him! The Resurrection occurs in heaven not the Earth.
2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
The new body is in heaven! Here Paul uses an analogy of a building, house and tabernacle to represent a physical body. One of these is an "earthly house" meaning the mortal flesh body we are born into and then a heavenly house which is in heaven that represents the new immortal body. This speaks of when a saved humans body dies (dissolved) that there is another body in heaven waiting for them and the time of Resurrection. There is nothing in the passage about the person's spirit returning to their dissolved/dead body and it being brought back to life. Paul speaks of a different body that already exists in heaven.
He speaks of the mortal body being dissolved and a new body that is waiting in heaven. Clearly that is not bringing the dissolved body back to life and changing it which would eliminate the need for the new body in heaven that he mentions.
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Paul writes that he desires to be clothed with the house from Heaven and says it is eternal in Heaven. That's the resurrected body and it is from heaven not from the Earth nor from an Earthly grave.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
The dead saints that resurrect are not brought to Jesus in a rapture but are brought with Jesus before the rapture even begins. That's a very important thing to recognize. Only those living saints are raptured and brought to Jesus and those he brought with him from heaven.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jesus comes WITH his resurrected saints and then the living saints are raptured up to meet them.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
The saints and angels make up the heavenly army that comes from heaven.
Jesus does NOT come alone, and does NOT rapture up the resurrected saints, and then has a second rapture of the living saints. There is only ONE rapture and it is only for those that hadn't died!
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Again, something awaits us in heaven. Is it not the new glorified body given in a heavenly resurrection?
If scripture interprets scripture then I submit:
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Though Jesus was a carpenter's son, I do not believe he is literally speaking of building a house in heaven for us but this being a reference to what 2 Corinthians 5:1 touches upon, a new body in heaven.
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
A mortal body is sown but a different body is what shall be received.
So, when it's time for second coming all the dead saints in heaven who are bodiless spirits will resurrect physically in heaven into the immortal body that was in heaven, then Christ will descend and the resurrected saints will follow Him, and when they reach the clouds above the Earth the living saints will be changed into immortal beings, then will be "caught up" in the Rapture to meet Christ and the heavenly saints and Christ will descend to his Earthly destination and all the will follow Him.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Since the Greek word G4862 "sun" means "union" the verse can be understood as:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together to have union/be united with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
That makes sense since Christ brings the resurrected with him from heaven and that the resurrection bodies are already in heaven according to Paul. There is nothing that places the resurrected dead on the Earth at the time of the rapture.
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So who's deffiniton are we going with here? Some say it means falling way others say it means depart pulled out.. that kind of thing. The truth the originally word can be one or the other. Its something we don't fully know.
I don't know what to say to some of these posts here. Some talk as if what they believe is the real truth and those others that they do not agree with are being lead astray. Well since that word to them only means "falling away". Then to talk about others and not know what they believe. I heard a man say "no you can not freely sin". "we do have to confess our sins". Guess who... shocking thing is since you never heard this a lie is being said about them. Do we care?
Our personal beliefs are not GODS word. The love we have for one another does really speak here. How some are treated... the sweet holy Spirit never talks like some have here. There is not many bodies just one.. and we are just part of it. He is the head.. He is in control He is the one that started a good work in those you do not agree with. He will finish it. He never looses. He sees the heart. He does not ever tell us something negative about anyone so we can post it to the world. If He shows you something hmm maybe He trusts you to pray for them..to help them. Speak words of life. Trust me if GOD wants to talk to YOU or me or some preacher.. He will do it face to face.. He will send someone to them they will already know its of GOD. Not on some web site of some video they will never see. \
Sorry.. got lost there. Theres another that gets talked about so again searched to hear form their mouth "Yeshua/Jesus came in the flesh born by the virgin Mary. Died on the cross for the worlds sin. Was buried rose the 3rd day is seated at the right hand of the Father is the only way to the Father. <---whats odd is I hear them say this... never once heard that from the one talking negative.
I don't know what to say to some of these posts here. Some talk as if what they believe is the real truth and those others that they do not agree with are being lead astray. Well since that word to them only means "falling away". Then to talk about others and not know what they believe. I heard a man say "no you can not freely sin". "we do have to confess our sins". Guess who... shocking thing is since you never heard this a lie is being said about them. Do we care?
Our personal beliefs are not GODS word. The love we have for one another does really speak here. How some are treated... the sweet holy Spirit never talks like some have here. There is not many bodies just one.. and we are just part of it. He is the head.. He is in control He is the one that started a good work in those you do not agree with. He will finish it. He never looses. He sees the heart. He does not ever tell us something negative about anyone so we can post it to the world. If He shows you something hmm maybe He trusts you to pray for them..to help them. Speak words of life. Trust me if GOD wants to talk to YOU or me or some preacher.. He will do it face to face.. He will send someone to them they will already know its of GOD. Not on some web site of some video they will never see. \
Sorry.. got lost there. Theres another that gets talked about so again searched to hear form their mouth "Yeshua/Jesus came in the flesh born by the virgin Mary. Died on the cross for the worlds sin. Was buried rose the 3rd day is seated at the right hand of the Father is the only way to the Father. <---whats odd is I hear them say this... never once heard that from the one talking negative.
Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
Satan twisted God's words just a little and the whole entire creation fell down and under his sway - just a few words was all that was needed.
Satan twisted God's words just a little and the whole entire creation fell down and under his sway - just a few words was all that was needed.
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"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together"
The ones alive will be caught up together as a group. The resurrected dead are not part of this.
"to have union/be united with them in the clouds,"
And who is the "them" that are in the clouds? It's the resurrected dead and Christ.
"to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
I know it sounds like the living will meet with another group (the resurrected dead) and those two groups are caught up together but that isn't what the verse is talking about. It's one group being caught up to meet with another group that is already in the clouds and waiting for the living saints to arrive. Take that and add all the above scriptures speaking about the new resurrection body being in heaven and we arrive at a heavenly resurrection for the dead saints.
The ones alive will be caught up together as a group. The resurrected dead are not part of this.
"to have union/be united with them in the clouds,"
And who is the "them" that are in the clouds? It's the resurrected dead and Christ.
"to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
I know it sounds like the living will meet with another group (the resurrected dead) and those two groups are caught up together but that isn't what the verse is talking about. It's one group being caught up to meet with another group that is already in the clouds and waiting for the living saints to arrive. Take that and add all the above scriptures speaking about the new resurrection body being in heaven and we arrive at a heavenly resurrection for the dead saints.
Thank you, David. I appreciate your response. I'm new to the site and find it a bit discouraging that there is so much personal opinion--often with things that are so straightforward, such as 'the falling away'--if read in it's context, it is clear--I do find it helpful to read other translations if there is any confusion in wording.
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Here is a clue to spot error - when it takes lengthy paragraphs of many words by man/men to prove their point over a single word/phrase.
Here is a Better Way to Truth, it is as simple as 1, 2, 3 and found in Matthew 18: 1, 2, 3
1At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them,
3and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Here is a Better Way to Truth, it is as simple as 1, 2, 3 and found in Matthew 18: 1, 2, 3
1At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them,
3and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
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And the Scripture has no problem with the word 'departure' as this is exactly what our Lord said would happen
in Matt 24:10 , 2 Thessalonians 2 and 1 John 2:18
But this is not what the spirit of error is seeking to do.
Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
This is the error = "adding to and taking away from God's words", in an attempt to breath life into error/idol.
But carnal men cannot breath life into anything, as much as they try, the idol is dead.
Scripture cannot lie and does not change IT's Mind to accommodate the pleasures of man.
Believe the Three Faithful Witnesses = The LORD (Matt 24), the Apostle Paul (1 & 2 Thess) and the Apostle John - 1 John 2:18.
And above all things - Do Not add or take away from their words - very, very BAD. = Read Revelation 22:18-19
These THREE AGREE - 1st a falling away, 2nd the man of sin, 3rd the Coming of our Lord which is the Resurrection.
in Matt 24:10 , 2 Thessalonians 2 and 1 John 2:18
But this is not what the spirit of error is seeking to do.
Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
This is the error = "adding to and taking away from God's words", in an attempt to breath life into error/idol.
But carnal men cannot breath life into anything, as much as they try, the idol is dead.
Scripture cannot lie and does not change IT's Mind to accommodate the pleasures of man.
Believe the Three Faithful Witnesses = The LORD (Matt 24), the Apostle Paul (1 & 2 Thess) and the Apostle John - 1 John 2:18.
And above all things - Do Not add or take away from their words - very, very BAD. = Read Revelation 22:18-19
These THREE AGREE - 1st a falling away, 2nd the man of sin, 3rd the Coming of our Lord which is the Resurrection.