Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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ok who is debunking and who is just bunking here?

so confusing.


Bible doesnt tell us we are slaves. I dont know what bible people are reading that says that. but mine definitely doesnt say that!

Mine says SERVANT. A servant chooses to serve, and in book of Joshua God actually gave the Israelites a choice in who they will serve. He didnt ENSLAVE them
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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also, maybe people just forgot that Moses led the Hebrews OUT of Egypt in which they were enslaved by the Egyptians.

DiD God then sentence them to hard labour all over again?And at every step of the way, He gave people a choice whether to follow Him or not.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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With your understanding of OSAS how do you deal with Rom 11:17-21.
The branches broken off is Israel and this happened because of their lack of faith in God. If this could happen to them what is to say that God could not do the same to any unbelieving gentiles. Just because you once trusted in Christ Jesus does not mean that you can then rest on that confession. If you reject God He will reject you. That is what scripture tells us. You cannot be cutoff from or fall away from or apostatize from a place you have never been.

While God gives eternal salvation to those that believe it is for those that believe not for those that once believed but no longer do. God does not force anyone to love Him or to be with Him.
Unbelieving gentiles have not been saved...
 

Ogom

Active member
Aug 22, 2020
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ogom.co
.... does this have to do with the word eternal?

Eternal means forever.

Does it mean different to God?

do we now (at present) see as God sees (all-knowing maybe, complete, nothing missing from our vision) or like a human (in part, in partial darkness, unable to know exactly what the authors mean/meant -- because we are not the authors, and not Spirit, and/or all-knowing, and/or all Light -- no darkness -- with no unknowns, not right there with God [like unto Christ])?

hope that helps. one way to learn more than what we presently believe/ think / even unknowingly hope is true but may or may not be is to become as a child............. wondering, teachable, open-minded, more innocent... ready to hear from the Body of Christ, or from the Spirit -- from our Father -- as a Child -- wherever and whenever the Spirit chooses to speak. we must become as a child in order to enter the Kingdom.
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
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we must become as a child in order to enter the Kingdom
Precious friend, ok, I TRUSTED, as a little child, and "entered the kingdom,"? Or, did I?

Is it immediate, OR, is it at the end of my life, depending on a list of "Conditions"?
 

Justified

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
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First off the bible never uses or teaches free will. Yes it absolutely teaches we have choice, but this idea of free will that you guys put forth doesn't exist, and is something we made up outside scripture. Jesus Himself tells us that we are slaves. There are two things we can be slaves of, He tells us that we are slaves of sin or slaves of Him. I know "slave" sounds so harsh, but this is what our King says.

My opinion on this,
The idea that you can be transformed by the Creator of everything, in a way that God is now as real to you as anyone else you've met face to face, that you can experience the Truth of everything, your dead spirit resurrected and reconciled to His Spirit, to be made whole as you were created to be, to have that missing piece of yourself restored in truth for the first time in your existence, then choose to turn around and reject Him after knowing the truth of salvation, is honestly one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard and outside the realm of possibility. The idea that anyone that He has opened the eyes of would turn from Him I absolutely with every ounce of Holy Spirit in my heart disagree as much as possible. No way this can happen, it would make God fallible if you really think about it. I do not believe anyone that knows our King in truth would ever choose to walk away, and of course this is where His Spirit has lead me through His word.
>>First off the bible never uses or teaches free will. Yes it absolutely teaches we have choice, but this idea of free will that you guys put forth doesn't exist<<

The concept of mans' free will is found throughout scripture. This can be seen in the fact that the first man was condemned because he chose to disobey God and every time that we chose to disobey God we prove this again. When we come to faith in Christ Jesus it is either by force or by choice.

You said that the scriptures absolutely teaches we have choice but disagree with free will but if we have the ability to chose then that means we have a free will. Choice without free will is not choice it is determinism.

Do you agree that God is Love and that He loves His creation and wants the best for us? If you do then you have to also agree that love cannot be forced as it would then not be love. God has given man the ability to think and chose either to trust in Christ Jesus or to reject said trust.

I agree it boggles the mind as to why anyone that has know the love of God through salvation would then turn and reject that love but we see it in the bible so we have to accept it. When someone chooses to walk away God will let them go although it breaks His heart. To do otherwise would not be loving would it.

>>it would make God fallible if you really think about it<<

Now you will have to explain why someone turning away from God would make God fallible. If a person decides to turn away from God because they no longer want to live under His rules for life then how does that make God fallible? Gods' rules have not changed the persons choice to live under them has changed.

There are many things in scripture that are hard to understand but this is not one that any parent should not understand. We can make our children obey us but we cannot make them to love us. Not the best way to picture it but a parent will understand what I mean.
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
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This is not true. As john said, he died so that ALL COULD BE SAVED.


romans 9 - 11 is about Gods choosing of the nation of Israel. DID GOD MAKE A MISTAKE?

He did not chose to send one unborn baby to heaven and one unborn baby to hell. He chose to chose on child as a child of the promise and the other child he did not chose. God did it his way. Which was not the way they did it in those days
"All" in the context of God's Elect.
Not Universalism. Not everyone everywhere who freely chooses....Only God's Elect.
We can't pick and choose and try to apply a go-around with regard to God's Sovereign choice before the world was created. He predestined whom he would for Salvation before the foundation (creation) of the world. Those names are written, were written, in the Lamb's Book of Life. But one of the books that shall, per Revelation, be opened at the judgment of all people.

And for those who think works has zero to do with being one of the Elect, because works of course do not gain us Salvation, those people may wish to read all of Revelation for context. Then they'll see that the Elect are also judged by their works, (as the elect). And are rewarded accordingly.
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
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475
83
First off the bible never uses or teaches free will. Yes it absolutely teaches we have choice, but this idea of free will that you guys put forth doesn't exist, and is something we made up outside scripture. Jesus Himself tells us that we are slaves. There are two things we can be slaves of, He tells us that we are slaves of sin or slaves of Him. I know "slave" sounds so harsh, but this is what our King says.

My opinion on this,
The idea that you can be transformed by the Creator of everything, in a way that God is now as real to you as anyone else you've met face to face, that you can experience the Truth of everything, your dead spirit resurrected and reconciled to His Spirit, to be made whole as you were created to be, to have that missing piece of yourself restored in truth for the first time in your existence, then choose to turn around and reject Him after knowing the truth of salvation, is honestly one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard and outside the realm of possibility. The idea that anyone that He has opened the eyes of would turn from Him I absolutely with every ounce of Holy Spirit in my heart disagree as much as possible. No way this can happen, it would make God fallible if you really think about it. I do not believe anyone that knows our King in truth would ever choose to walk away, and of course this is where His Spirit has lead me through His word.
Well said.

Especially this: "....The idea that you can be transformed by the Creator of everything, in a way that God is now as real to you as anyone else you've met face to face, that you can experience the Truth of everything, your dead spirit resurrected and reconciled to His Spirit, to be made whole as you were created to be, to have that missing piece of yourself restored in truth for the first time in your existence, then choose to turn around and reject Him after knowing the truth of salvation, is honestly one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard and outside the realm of possibility. "

We know a Christian can backslide. Fall away or lose faith because of personal circumstances in their life. It happens. I've known a few people from my church today. However, to think that means God turns from us, and our Salvation is revoked due to that, isn't scripture.

OSAS= LOVE this! Once Sealed Always Sealed.

It's been said before because it's truth. As the Prodigal proved, at least for those who read it with a true heart for the word. Just because we lose faith in the father doesn't mean our father loses faith in us.
And no one will take them from my hand.
No one. Not even us. God knew whom would be saved before the world. That means the creator of all things, including us and every thing we are and think, knew our future (Omniscient) and chose us in him to be Saved before the world was created by him.

And the ego of our kind think we can out-think God? And surrender what he said he'll never take from us? Is not a thought generated from the mind that is at one with Christ. And certainly doesn't reflect what God's word assures for all time.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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The concept of mans' free will is found throughout scripture.
Perhaps it should be called self will ;)

Man's will is constrained by many factors.

Too many, really, to properly call it "free."
 

Justified

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
194
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28
Unbelieving gentiles have not been saved...
If you look at the text Rom 11:17-21 you can see that Paul was telling believing gentiles not to be so proud as they would be judged just like the Jews if they turned away from God as the Jews had.
 

Justified

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
194
74
28
Perhaps it should be called self will ;)

Man's will is constrained by many factors.

Too many, really, to properly call it "free."
Have to disagree as it is God that has made the requirement for salvation which is a free choice to accept or reject Christ Jesus. The only way that man is able to do so is because God in His mercy has given the free will to make that choice. If it we self will then that would mean that man could over rule God and we know that cannot happen.

Self will would mean that man could do as he wishes in spite of the control or order of others. Whereas free will is the ability to choose between two or more different options that are presented to him.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
With your understanding of OSAS how do you deal with Rom 11:17-21.
The branches broken off is Israel and this happened because of their lack of faith in God. If this could happen to them what is to say that God could not do the same to any unbelieving gentiles. Just because you once trusted in Christ Jesus does not mean that you can then rest on that confession. If you reject God He will reject you. That is what scripture tells us. You cannot be cutoff from or fall away from or apostatize from a place you have never been.

While God gives eternal salvation to those that believe it is for those that believe not for those that once believed but no longer do. God does not force anyone to love Him or to be with Him.
romans 11 is about Saved and unsaved jews (Israel) and saved gentiles

It is not about losing salvation. It is that natural jews who rejected God were cut off. And gentiles who received Christ were grafted in.

He is telling gentile believers not to be puffed up in pride that they are part of Gods people and think to highly of themselves. That just as they were cut off and we were grafted in, we can be cut off also. It is easier for them being a natural branch. then us being unnatural branches

The truth is , when the time of the gentile is completed ALL Israel will be saved. The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. God is not done with Israel is the point. not individual salvation
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
this is a very good point.

it has been said that those that do not go to heaven are -- without God. that is ............... separated . . . . . . . . forever.

but who can withstand the brightness of His coming -- except for those who have cleansed their hearts and lives ............... enough?

but this is a process no doubt, though some are more quick to the cleansing (overcoming much sin in their life and heart), while others moreso slow, stagnate, lukewarm, ect.

if we are not very bright in ourselves (Spirit being formed in us more and more of greater brightness and shining forth in our mind and actions and heart) as of yet -- then, if we have the Spirit -- we can begin to see the -- great need of this.

Isaiah 43:19

Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.”

21This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.

25I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

26Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.

22But thou hast not called upon me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary of me, O Israel.

27Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me.

2 Peter 3:8

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
those in hell do not have eternal life

They suffer eternal death

Believers pass from death to life. And God calls that life eternal

He does not give conditional life. If he did he would have called it conditional life

A non believer is dead now. If he dies a non believer, he will die dead. And then he will be delivered to Christ. and suffer the second death

They do NOT have eternal life
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
do we now (at present) see as God sees (all-knowing maybe, complete, nothing missing from our vision) or like a human (in part, in partial darkness, unable to know exactly what the authors mean/meant -- because we are not the authors, and not Spirit, and/or all-knowing, and/or all Light -- no darkness -- with no unknowns, not right there with God [like unto Christ])?

hope that helps. one way to learn more than what we presently believe/ think / even unknowingly hope is true but may or may not be is to become as a child............. wondering, teachable, open-minded, more innocent... ready to hear from the Body of Christ, or from the Spirit -- from our Father -- as a Child -- wherever and whenever the Spirit chooses to speak. we must become as a child in order to enter the Kingdom.
God said we will NEVER DIE. and HAVE ETERNAL LIFE

I think we should take God at his word. don't you?

I do believer never is the same in Gods time frame and ours.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
"All" in the context of God's Elect.
Not Universalism. Not everyone everywhere who freely chooses....Only God's Elect.
We can't pick and choose and try to apply a go-around with regard to God's Sovereign choice before the world was created. He predestined whom he would for Salvation before the foundation (creation) of the world. Those names are written, were written, in the Lamb's Book of Life. But one of the books that shall, per Revelation, be opened at the judgment of all people.

And for those who think works has zero to do with being one of the Elect, because works of course do not gain us Salvation, those people may wish to read all of Revelation for context. Then they'll see that the Elect are also judged by their works, (as the elect). And are rewarded accordingly.
ALL in context of romans 11 is Israel.

Paul is saying, just like the OT prophets predicted there will be a time to come. When the time of the gentile is complete. That Israel as a nation will repent.

When ALL Israel is used. Gentile believers are not included in that context.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
First off the bible never uses or teaches free will. Yes it absolutely teaches we have choice, but this idea of free will that you guys put forth doesn't exist, and is something we made up outside scripture. Jesus Himself tells us that we are slaves. There are two things we can be slaves of, He tells us that we are slaves of sin or slaves of Him. I know "slave" sounds so harsh, but this is what our King says.

My opinion on this,
The idea that you can be transformed by the Creator of everything, in a way that God is now as real to you as anyone else you've met face to face, that you can experience the Truth of everything, your dead spirit resurrected and reconciled to His Spirit, to be made whole as you were created to be, to have that missing piece of yourself restored in truth for the first time in your existence, then choose to turn around and reject Him after knowing the truth of salvation, is honestly one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard and outside the realm of possibility. The idea that anyone that He has opened the eyes of would turn from Him I absolutely with every ounce of Holy Spirit in my heart disagree as much as possible. No way this can happen, it would make God fallible if you really think about it. I do not believe anyone that knows our King in truth would ever choose to walk away, and of course this is where His Spirit has lead me through His word.
I agree, it is ridiculous to think a person who was born again, Saved, Made a child of God, given every gift in heaven. Anointed by trhe spirit. Been touched by God could ever turn and deny Christ.

And john tells us this. They were never of us. If they were of us they would have stayed..

But free will still exists.. They could deny him if they wanted. But they won't. Because God is trustworthy. We lose faith in people who fail us. God never fails us, so we would never activly deny Christ and walk away saying his gospel is not the gospel .
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Perhaps it should be called self will ;)

Man's will is constrained by many factors.

Too many, really, to properly call it "free."
Maybe this is true.

But Israel still had to chose to deny Christ.

As Jesus said to jerusalem.

Matthew 23:37
Jesus Laments over Jerusalem
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

So they had a choice. But what would we call this type of will?

good question
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
If you look at the text Rom 11:17-21 you can see that Paul was telling believing gentiles not to be so proud as they would be judged just like the Jews if they turned away from God as the Jews had.
Yes, God will tur his back on GENTILES just as he did the JEWS.

In AD 70 God took everything from Israel and gave it to the gentile church. If the Gentile church fails. He will take it away from us and give it back to Israel

In Fact. The prophets say that will happen. not might.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,146
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113
Maybe this is true.

But Israel still had to chose to deny Christ.

As Jesus said to jerusalem.

Matthew 23:37
Jesus Laments over Jerusalem
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

So they had a choice. But what would we call this type of will?

good question
It is a will at odds with and opposed to God's will.
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,398
475
83
ALL in context of romans 11 is Israel.

Paul is saying, just like the OT prophets predicted there will be a time to come. When the time of the gentile is complete. That Israel as a nation will repent.

When ALL Israel is used. Gentile believers are not included in that context.
Especially with regard to the part of your observations I made bold above. You should read Romans 11 first.

What does Romans chapter 11 mean?
This passage concludes a significant section of Paul's letter, contained in Romans 9—11. These three chapters ask and answer the question, "What about Israel?" This is an objection Paul's opponents often asked. If Israel is God's chosen people and they have rejected faith in Christ as the way of salvation, what will happen to them?

Paul has acknowledged that Israel has, for the most part, rejected faith in Christ. He begins this chapter by asking if that means that God has rejected Israel. His response is another resounding "no." After all, Paul himself is an Israelite who has come to faith in Christ and has been saved, showing that this is possible for all Jewish people. Paul refers to the smaller subset of Jewish people who have turned to Christ as a remnant, comparing them to the remnant of those in Israel who had not bowed to Baal in Elijah's day. By His grace (Romans 9:6–8), God has set aside this remnant of Jewish Christians as true Israel (Romans 11:1–5).

Paul also makes a clear point about any attempt to mix salvation by grace with salvation based on works. In short, they are totally incompatible. If something is truly by "grace," it cannot be in any way based on works, and vice versa (Romans 11:6).

What about the rest of Israel, though? What of those who refused to believe in Christ as the Messiah? Paul's startling revelation is that God has hardened their hearts in their initial unbelief. He has caused them to trip over the stumbling block of Jesus, but not permanently. Their hardening is only for a time (Romans 11:7–10).

One reason for Israel's unbelief, Paul writes, is to make room on the main body—referred to as "the root"— of God's tree. This open space is intended for the non-Jews in the world. These Gentiles who are coming to God through faith in Christ are like the branches of a wild olive tree that have been grafted onto the trunk of a cultivated plant. The old branches, unbelieving Jews, have been broken off for a time to make this possible (Romans 11:11–16).

Paul warns the Gentile Christians not to be arrogant toward these unbelieving Jews, however. The time is coming, after the right amount of the Gentiles have believed in Christ, when God will remove the hardening from the unbelieving Jews. They will turn to faith in Christ and, as a people, be grafted back onto God's symbolic olive tree, from which they had previously been pruned. God is not done with Israel (Romans 11:17–24).

In spiritual terms, the Israelites may be enemies of the gospel of faith in Jesus Christ, for now. They were certainly the spiritual enemies of Paul during his lifetime. And yet, the Jewish people of Israel remain deeply loved by God because of the promises He made to the patriarchs. God never breaks His promises. His gifts and His calling on Israel can't be taken back. God will use His grace and mercy toward the Gentile Christians to make Israel jealous. He will use these events to bring her back to Himself as a nation, in the form of those individual Jews who eventually trust in Christ at some future time (Romans 11:25–32).

Paul concludes this section with what has become a beloved poem, like a hymn, about the vast un-knowable-ness and independence of our merciful God (Romans 11:33–36).