Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Justified]

How can you miss the point on the fact we stop having faith in people who ;eg us down. WHo prove to be untrustworthy.

One does nt just lose faith in christ.

What you have is people who BELIEVE, but they have no faith. Even demons believe.

Either way. John said they were never of us.. NEVEFR means never.

Have you never believed in something only to find out later that with more information you decided that you did not believe in it anymore?

You are trying to conflate demons and humans but it does not work. The demons knew that Christ Jesus was the son of God based on first hand knowledge, they just did not want Him as their Lord. Humans trusted in Christ Jesus because they had heard the gospel and believed the message about who Christ was. While demons could not deny that Christ is the son of God humans can at some point choose to repudiate the truth of who Christ is.

When you say that humans cannot change their minds then you are denying free will. If man has the free will to choose Christ, which they do, then they have the free will to deny faith later.
If you deny human free will then you are saying the God has the only free will and that would make Him the only free actor. The result would be that all things, good or bad, are the responsibility of God.

But that discussion would be for another thread.

 

[TMS]

Where in the Bible are we told fallen unrepentant sinners are called son and daughter of God? (John 1:12-12)

Where in scripture are we told fallen unrepentant sinners have an inheritance? (Romans 8:17)

Jesus loves all.
He died for all.
We choose if we want to be the children of God or not. God will not stop anyone that wants to be saved. While we are unrepentent we are not saved (no inheritance).
Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

 

[Icedaisey]

Jesus loves all.
He died for all.
We choose if we want to be the children of God or not. God will not stop anyone that wants to be saved. While we are unrepentent we are not saved (no inheritance).
Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

But the Bible does not tell us Jesus died for all. If he did, all would be saved. Which is not the case. Romans 9:
God's Sovereign Choice
…17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden. 19One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?”

The lost sheep? Are the house of Israel and Judah. Jeremiah 50

But Jesus also said he has other sheep that he must bring also. John 10:16“And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they shall hear My voice; and they shall become one flock with one shepherd. [Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 2 Thessalonians 2:14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1:19, Romans 8:30, et all...]
This was a factor in the OT as well. Isaiah 49:1

A Remnant Chosen by Grace
Romans 11:1I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says about Elijah, how he appealed to God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars. I am the only one left, and they are seeking my life as well”a?
4And what was the divine reply to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”b
5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.c
7What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see,
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”d
9And David says:
“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”e
The Ingrafting of the Gentiles
11I ask then, did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?f Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
13I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

 

[Evmur]

Are those people who were in Christ unsealed by the Holy Spirit if they backslide?

OSAS

Once sealed always sealed. When we are sealed by the Holy Spirit it is the guarantee that we will be saved.

 

[John146]

But the Bible does not tell us Jesus died for all. If he did, all would be saved. Which is not the case.

Thats using your logic, but it’s not Bible. If Christ indeed died for all, why would that mean all would be saved? Only this that believe. All day long He stretched firth His hand to a disobedient people, Israel. He stretched out to them, but they rejected Him over and over.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Have you never believed in something only to find out later that with more information you decided that you did not believe in it anymore?

You are trying to conflate demons and humans but it does not work. The demons knew that Christ Jesus was the son of God based on first hand knowledge, they just did not want Him as their Lord. Humans trusted in Christ Jesus because they had heard the gospel and believed the message about who Christ was. While demons could not deny that Christ is the son of God humans can at some point choose to repudiate the truth of who Christ is.

When you say that humans cannot change their minds then you are denying free will. If man has the free will to choose Christ, which they do, then they have the free will to deny faith later.
If you deny human free will then you are saying the God has the only free will and that would make Him the only free actor. The result would be that all things, good or bad, are the responsibility of God.

But that discussion would be for another thread.

I am just trying to share with you what John said


"They left us but they were never of us. for if they were of us they never would have left. but the left to prove they were never of us"

Yes. I have started to trust in a person or thing. And that person or thing proved to be untrustworthy, and my so called faith was lost.

Demons believe and tremble (james 2) I used this to show that just believing is not enough.

Eternal life is still eternal life. And every child of God is told they HAVE IT.

The bible does not teach conditional life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But the Bible does not tell us Jesus died for all. If he did, all would be saved.

This is not true. As john said, he died so that ALL COULD BE SAVED.

Which is not the case. Romans 9:
God's Sovereign Choice
…17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden. 19One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?”

The lost sheep? Are the house of Israel and Judah. Jeremiah 50

But Jesus also said he has other sheep that he must bring also. John 10:16“And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they shall hear My voice; and they shall become one flock with one shepherd. [Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 2 Thessalonians 2:14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1:19, Romans 8:30, et all...]
This was a factor in the OT as well. Isaiah 49:1

A Remnant Chosen by Grace
Romans 11:1I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says about Elijah, how he appealed to God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars. I am the only one left, and they are seeking my life as well”a?
4And what was the divine reply to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”b
5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.c
7What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see,
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”d
9And David says:
“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”e
The Ingrafting of the Gentiles
11I ask then, did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?f Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
13I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

romans 9 - 11 is about Gods choosing of the nation of Israel. DID GOD MAKE A MISTAKE?

He did not chose to send one unborn baby to heaven and one unborn baby to hell. He chose to chose on child as a child of the promise and the other child he did not chose. God did it his way. Which was not the way they did it in those days

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

From what I understand of God, as limited as that is, I see Him as one that exhibits love for His creation. The one thing that true love cannot be is forced. Since we do have a God given free will which allows us to choose or reject Him for salvation and since I have found nothing in that says that free will is taken away after we are saved I in all honesty can not see how or why God would make someone stay that did not want to stay.
For those that hold that those that leave were never really saved in the first place my question is what are you basing that on?

When you say that humans cannot change their minds then you are denying free will. If man has the free will to choose Christ, which they do, then they have the free will to deny faith later.

Precious friends, what are we missing? According To The GRACE Scriptures
TO The Body Of CHRIST {NOT to be Confused with The Law to the Jews...}:

1Co_6:19 "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of The Holy
Ghost Which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"

TWO possibilities, eh?:

(1) NO free will to say "men can change" What God Has Accomplished
In HIS Establishment Of An ETERNAL Relationship of ETERNAL Life?

a) CHRIST's Full Sacrifice! Is it "Sufficient" or INsufficient?​

​

b) God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST! ​

Are THESE Dozens of Plain And Clear Scriptures actually false?​

​

2) YES "free will" to choose to BE OUT of "the fellowship Unto which
all of God's children are called In JESUS CHRIST" (1 Corinthians 1:9)?

Confusion Eradicator, According To God's Word?: Relationship vs
fellowship, In:
God's Simple Will! {THREE Tenses Of God's ETERNAL Salvation!}

Precious friends, please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted,
And Edified In The Wonderful Love And Amazing GRACE Of God!!

 

[Icedaisey]

OSAS

Once sealed always sealed. When we are sealed by the Holy Spirit it is the guarantee that we will be saved.

Bravo! OSAS=Once Sealed Always Sealed! AMEN!

 

[Justified]

I am just trying to share with you what John said


"They left us but they were never of us. for if they were of us they never would have left. but the left to prove they were never of us"

Yes. I have started to trust in a person or thing. And that person or thing proved to be untrustworthy, and my so called faith was lost.

Demons believe and tremble (james 2) I used this to show that just believing is not enough.

Eternal life is still eternal life. And every child of God is told they HAVE IT.

The bible does not teach conditional life.

I fully agree that every child of God has eternal life but that is not the question here is it? The question before us is can a person that has placed their faith in Christ Jesus at some latter date repudiate said faith and thus be cast aside.

When you say eternal life is still eternal I can agree as no matter where you are heaven or hell it is eternal. But that still does not address the question, can a man repudiate his faith? But you did allude to it when you said every child of God is told they have it. Note it is the children of God that have eternal life in heaven and that life is conditional on faith in Christ Jesus.


Jesus says it clearly in Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Now do you think that it just a momentary faith that is required or would it be a continuing faith? Well the Greek shows that He who believes G4100 (G5723) is in the present tense which means the action is Progressive (Continuous).

Now we know that those who believe are expected to continue to believe but is that always the case? Unfortunately NO, some will turn away form faith so as to return to the world and eventually destruction in hell. We see this shown clearly in the following verses.

Heb 10:38 NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; BUT IF ANYONE DRAWS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM."

THE JUST The ones pardoned and renewed, or justified and regenerated will live in Gods’ favour a spiritual and holy life by faith.

IF ANYONE DRAWS BACK If they cease to believe and rely on God’s promises; or if, because of trials or temptations, cease to exercise faith in Christ, and the truths and promises of the gospel, and renounces his profession of Christ


Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

BUT WE ARE NOT Not all will turn away from faith

THOSE WHO DRAW BACK TO PERDITION those who backslide and apostatize.

Those that apostatize are those that draw back from faith as seen in the first verse.

But this is not the only place in scripture where we see this spoken of. Peter tells us who they are and also the consequence of their actions.

2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

IF AFTER THEY HAVE ESCAPED those spoken of here are no longer living for the world

THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST JESUS through faith in him, 2Pe 1:3

THEY ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN THE WORLD through trials, temptations etc.

THEIR END IS FAR WORSE THAN AT THE START they know the truth and yet repudiate it.

2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER NOT TO HAVE KNOWN they were saved, they were called righteous so when they turn away their condemnation will be greater.

As you can see the bible does teach conditional salvation. Although God loves His creation and wants all to come to a saving knowledge He will not force anyone to be saved or to stay in a loving relationship with Him.

Man has the God given free will to choose Christ and they also have the God given free will to later deny faith in Christ Jesus and walk away.

 

[Justified]

Precious friends, what are we missing? According To The GRACE Scriptures
TO The Body Of CHRIST {NOT to be Confused with The Law to the Jews...}:

1Co_6:19 "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of The Holy
Ghost Which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"

TWO possibilities, eh?:

(1) NO free will to say "men can change" What God Has Accomplished
In HIS Establishment Of An ETERNAL Relationship of ETERNAL Life?

a) CHRIST's Full Sacrifice! Is it "Sufficient" or INsufficient?​

​

b) God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST! ​

Are THESE Dozens of Plain And Clear Scriptures actually false?​

​

2) YES "free will" to choose to BE OUT of "the fellowship Unto which
all of God's children are called In JESUS CHRIST" (1 Corinthians 1:9)?

Confusion Eradicator, According To God's Word?: Relationship vs
fellowship, In:
God's Simple Will! {THREE Tenses Of God's ETERNAL Salvation!}

Precious friends, please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted,
And Edified In The Wonderful Love And Amazing GRACE Of God!!

Please see my post # 710

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I fully agree that every child of God has eternal life but that is not the question here is it? The question before us is can a person that has placed their faith in Christ Jesus at some latter date repudiate said faith and thus be cast aside.

If a person HAS eternal life

and there is a condition which would cause them to LOSE eternal life.

they they do not HAVE eternal life

they have conditional life

eternal life is not a religious term. It means live forever. As Jesus said in John 6. They will live forever. No one will be lost.

The lamb that walks away, the good shepherd leaves the whole flock. And the lamb knows his shepherd and returns.. Those that do not return were never his.

 

[Ogom]

eternal life is not a religious term. It means live forever. As Jesus said in John 6. They will live forever. No one will be lost.

in order to know exactly of what kind of nature is being referred to here, we might need to speak to the author, or someone who knew the author.

other wise, we might be applying ideas to this verse that aren't exactly true or even far off from the real and actual intended (by the author & or the Spiritual [true]) meaning.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

in order to know exactly of what kind of nature is being referred to here, we might need to speak to the author, or someone who knew the author.

other wise, we might be applying ideas to this verse that aren't exactly true or even far off from the real and actual intended (by the author & or the Spiritual [true]) meaning.

can you give me an instance where the words life eternal or live forever does not actually mean live forever?

 

[Ogom]

can you give me an instance where the words life eternal or live forever does not actually mean live forever?

what does time mean to you / me?

here is what it might mean to God:


2 Peter 3:8
8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

what does time mean to you / me?

here is what it might mean to God:


2 Peter 3:8
8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

What does this have to do with the word eternal?

Eternal means forever.

Does it mean different to God?

 

[Ogom]

When you say eternal life is still eternal I can agree as no matter where you are heaven or hell it is eternal.

this is a very good point.

it has been said that those that do not go to heaven are -- without God. that is ............... separated . . . . . . . . forever.

but who can withstand the brightness of His coming -- except for those who have cleansed their hearts and lives ............... enough?

but this is a process no doubt, though some are more quick to the cleansing (overcoming much sin in their life and heart), while others moreso slow, stagnate, lukewarm, ect.

if we are not very bright in ourselves (Spirit being formed in us more and more of greater brightness and shining forth in our mind and actions and heart) as of yet -- then, if we have the Spirit -- we can begin to see the -- great need of this.

Isaiah 43:19

“Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.”

21This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.

25I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

26Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.

22But thou hast not called upon me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary of me, O Israel.

27Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me.

2 Peter 3:8

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

[Anthony55]

If a person HAS eternal life

and there is a condition which would cause them to LOSE eternal life.

they they do not HAVE eternal life

they have conditional life

eternal life is not a religious term. It means live forever. As Jesus said in John 6. They will live forever. No one will be lost.

The lamb that walks away, the good shepherd leaves the whole flock. And the lamb knows his shepherd and returns.. Those that do not return were never his.

Amen

 

[Justified]

If a person HAS eternal life

and there is a condition which would cause them to LOSE eternal life.

they they do not HAVE eternal life

they have conditional life

eternal life is not a religious term. It means live forever. As Jesus said in John 6. They will live forever. No one will be lost.

The lamb that walks away, the good shepherd leaves the whole flock. And the lamb knows his shepherd and returns.. Those that do not return were never his.

With your understanding of OSAS how do you deal with Rom 11:17-21.
The branches broken off is Israel and this happened because of their lack of faith in God. If this could happen to them what is to say that God could not do the same to any unbelieving gentiles. Just because you once trusted in Christ Jesus does not mean that you can then rest on that confession. If you reject God He will reject you. That is what scripture tells us. You cannot be cutoff from or fall away from or apostatize from a place you have never been.

While God gives eternal salvation to those that believe it is for those that believe not for those that once believed but no longer do. God does not force anyone to love Him or to be with Him.

 

[Jimbone]

Precious friends, what are we missing? According To The GRACE Scriptures
TO The Body Of CHRIST {NOT to be Confused with The Law to the Jews...}:

1Co_6:19 "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of The Holy
Ghost Which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"

TWO possibilities, eh?:

(1) NO free will to say "men can change" What God Has Accomplished
In HIS Establishment Of An ETERNAL Relationship of ETERNAL Life?

a) CHRIST's Full Sacrifice! Is it "Sufficient" or INsufficient?​

​

b) God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST! ​

Are THESE Dozens of Plain And Clear Scriptures actually false?​

God's Simple Will! {THREE Tenses Of God's ETERNAL Salvation!}

Precious friends, please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted,
And Edified In The Wonderful Love And Amazing GRACE Of God!!

First off the bible never uses or teaches free will. Yes it absolutely teaches we have choice, but this idea of free will that you guys put forth doesn't exist, and is something we made up outside scripture. Jesus Himself tells us that we are slaves. There are two things we can be slaves of, He tells us that we are slaves of sin or slaves of Him. I know "slave" sounds so harsh, but this is what our King says.

My opinion on this,
The idea that you can be transformed by the Creator of everything, in a way that God is now as real to you as anyone else you've met face to face, that you can experience the Truth of everything, your dead spirit resurrected and reconciled to His Spirit, to be made whole as you were created to be, to have that missing piece of yourself restored in truth for the first time in your existence, then choose to turn around and reject Him after knowing the truth of salvation, is honestly one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard and outside the realm of possibility. The idea that anyone that He has opened the eyes of would turn from Him I absolutely with every ounce of Holy Spirit in my heart disagree as much as possible. No way this can happen, it would make God fallible if you really think about it. I do not believe anyone that knows our King in truth would ever choose to walk away, and of course this is where His Spirit has lead me through His word.