Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.

[justbyfaith]

It's better explained in the manner Jesus used to explain complex problems unto his Disciples via examples, or in other words parable-like form, which juxtaposes the problem against a real-world situation.

So, is Jesus God the Father or the Holy Spirit? No, they are all three different personas, but all three one in Spirit.

EXAMPLE:

Let's take a reservoir of three trillion gallons of water, in that reservoir every ounce of that water has the exact same make-up in its Chemical components, it's all exactly the same throughout. Not one drop is different from another.

Now, take 100 gallons (Jesus) of this water and pour of over a person's head, he will no doubt be soaking wet, but he will be OK. Now, take another 100 gallons (Holy Spirit) and pout it over the same person's head, once again, he will be extremely wet, but he should be A-OK. Now, take the whole three trillion (God the Father )gallons (- the 200 SMILE) and pour that over the sane guy's head, and IMHO, he will surely die.

The Three are the EXACT SAME in Make-up (Spirit = the Water), they are Love, Hope, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Patient, Kindness, Faithful, etc., etc., etc. thus they are all three the exact same in Spirit. The Three are all three unique individuals in their offices, God the Father has the ABUNDANCE of the Glory, God the Son/Redeemer has redeemed us unto God, God the Holy Spirit is our Helper.

NOTICE: Jesus was God and men could look on him, (just like the 100 gallons didn't kill the man). The Holy Spirit is God and He can live in us (the 100 gallons is survivable). God the Fater could not live in a human being, we would explode and die seeing all of His Glory !! When Moses merely looked at His hinder parts, Moses's hair turned white. When the 70 looked in the Ark of the Covenant, they all died. No man can look upon the full Glory of the Father and survive, we looked upon Jesus and the Holy Spirit lives in us. The Father = the Three trillion gallons of water. It is the SAME WATER, but the Father has the ABUNDANCE of the Glory.

So, in essence, the Trinity is all three are ONE ON SPIRIT (the Water) but different unique INDIVIDUALS, with unique offices. (100, 100, Three Trillion). The Father has the ABUNDANCE of the GLORY.

Actually, if you understand Ephesians 3:19-20 and Ephesians 4:6 together, you might see that these passages teach that we, as believers, are filled with all the fulness of the Father.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jews have always been monotheistic, and have never accepted the trinity. Let's take a look at one of the Messiah's conversations with one:


Mark 12:32-34

32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.


Was this Jewish scribe an exception to monotheism? Did he really mean that that one god was actually 3 co-equal beings called god... including the Messiah he was speaking to? Where is the belief of this trinity in Jewish history?

The Messiah didn't correct him, but rather praised him for his answer. That would have been a good time to bring up how this trinity doctrine works... that way centuries later people wouldn't have to interpret it into the scriptures.

Notice that Jesus commended that scribe because he spoke discreetly.

That indicates that he was not divulging all of the information as concerning what he really believed about Christ.

The man was very likely aware of the Messianic passage in Isaiah 9:6; and he every likely interpreted it to mean that the Messiah would be the everlasting Father come in the flesh.

He did not have modern-day teaching to tell him that "The everlasting Father" does not mean what it says and say what it means.

 

[SteveEpperson]

it is unbiblical to refer to the Holy Spirit as "an energy".

Unless that bible has been altered in some way to fit an apostate, false doctrine. I think of the Watchtower Society's New World Translation.

It changes John 1:1 from:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

To:

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the Word was a god.

[I almost became sick to my stomach typing it.]

You probably already knew about this apostasy. But many here don't.

So, I need to ask you a question, especially since you are a veteran member. Would it be appropriate to call this out by name, especially since the organization in question is becoming more militant by coming onto this forum for the sole purpose of altering our faith?

For example, is it okay to call out the Mormon church and give examples of what to watch out for? Is it okay to do the same for other cults as well?

Your input is appreciated. Thanks.

 

[MalikB]

No, Jesus is the Most High in Sprit, he is God as is the Holy Spirit as is the Father. Jesus was the Man in Linen in Dan. chapter 12. During the creation of man, the verse says, Let US create man in OUR image and in OUR likeness. So, they have always been one in Sprit.

Not understanding that Jesus is Gid was the Pharisee's problem.

The Most High is All and is in ALL...


Ephesians 4:6

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

This is how they are "one" in spirit... but that spirit originates from The Most High, not Jesus.



John 5:26

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;


John 12:49

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.


John 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.



John 13:3

Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;




Even after Death:


Revelation 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John



Mark 13:32


32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.



All power from Jesus comes by way of the Father... Not the other way around.

 

[MalikB]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. John 1:1

I believe in the inerrant Gospel of John instead of the Watchtower Society's apostate drivel. After all, why would you follow a bunch of high school drop-outs holed up in their mom's basement in Warwick, New York?

I could careless what Watchtower Society says. I don't follow them or any man as my authority.

I don't argue that Jesus is "God"... He is just not his Father, which is these....

• THE MOST HIGH GOD
• THE ALMIGHTY
• Above all gods
• יהוה

All things that come through the Son, originate from The Father.

The Holy Spirit is the energy that comes from The Most High...
Spirit (energy) can manifest in many ways (See 1 CO 12:7-11).

The Holy Spirit is not a separate person. The Holy Spirit does not have a throne in Heaven


The Messiah does not send The Holy Spirit. Only The Father does.


John 14:26

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.



The Messiah does not know all things...


Mark 13:32

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.


The Messiah was given power over heaven and earth, and no man comes to the Father but through him.... However, The Most High God is still "The Most High".

 

[justbyfaith]

That Jesus is the everlasting Father is evident in Isaiah 9:6, John 14:7-11.

The first fo these scriptures, you would have to change it, not once, but two times, in order to be able to come up with an interpretation that Jesus isn't the everlasting Father.

 

[SteveEpperson]

he Most High is All and is in ALL...


Ephesians 4:6

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

This is how they are "one" in spirit... but that spirit originates from The Most High, not Jesus.

Nice try. Taking scripture out of context won't work here. Paul was talking about ALL believers. And in no way does it even come close to denying the deity of Christ.

So, once again, Jesus is Lord and God.

Thomas replied to him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are the people who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:28-29

 

[CS1]

Unless that bible has been altered in some way to fit an apostate, false doctrine. I think of the Watchtower Society's New World Translation.

It changes John 1:1 from:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

To:

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the Word was a god.

[I almost became sick to my stomach typing it.]

You probably already knew about this apostasy. But many here don't.

So, I need to ask you a question, especially since you are a veteran member. Would it be appropriate to call this out by name, especially since the organization in question is becoming more militant by coming onto this forum for the sole purpose of altering our faith?

For example, is it okay to call out the Mormon church and give examples of what to watch out for? Is it okay to do the same for other cults as well?

Your input is appreciated. Thanks.

It is well known in Orthodox Christianity Doctrine and Christian theology that Watch Tower is a theological cult. They deny the deity of Christ as some in this thread are doing by the very argument Watchtower makes, even if they don't claim to be a member of that group's the error is well-known. John chapter one as you have correctly shown was altered from "was God " to was a god".

the watchtower bible publisher is unknown, The watchtower bible should be thrown away just on that fact.

Jesus is the son of God which means HE is GOD as the Father is God , so is the SON, not a god but God as the Son eternal, coe -equal.
Those who call the Holy Spirit and refer to HIM as energy are profaning the Holy Spirit.
This should not be.

 

[SteveEpperson]

It is well known in Orthodox Christianity Doctrine and Christian theology that Watch Tower is a theological cult.

Well-put. And thank you for your insight. I will try to be as respectful as possible going forward while shedding light on the truth.

 

[MalikB]

Nice try. Taking scripture out of context won't work here. Paul was talking about ALL believers. And in no way does it even come close to denying the deity of Christ.

So, once again, Jesus is Lord and God.

Thomas replied to him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are the people who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:28-29

Again, I don't deny that Jesus is "God" or "Lord". He is just not these things...

• THE MOST HIGH GOD
• THE ALMIGHTY
• Above all gods
• יהוה

...Those titles are exclusive to who Jesus referred to as his Father.



The titles "Lord and God" are not exclusive to Jesus or The Most High:


John 10:34

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Psalm 82:6

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.




The Father and son here are two distinct beings, both being called Lord:

Psalm 110:1

The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.



This was quoted later by The Messiah:

Mark 12:35-37

35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?
36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.



In Genesis 23:6 Abraham was not only called a prince, but also "lord" and "god". The word translated here as "mighty", is the the same word for God as Genesis 1:1 ("In the beginning God"):

Genesis 23:5-6

5 And the children of Heth answered Abraham, saying unto him,

6 Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty (Elohim) prince among us: in the choice of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead.


The words "Lord/My Lord" are used throughout scripture as a sign of honor and respect to someone you look up to. Being called "God or Son of God" is used for those that walk after the spirit as a reflection of The Most High as opposed to walking after the flesh and sin.

These are NOT titles exclusive to The Most High and the Messiah... So it is illogical to use these titles to support the trinity doctrine.

 

[justbyfaith]

Again, I don't deny that Jesus is "God" or "Lord". He is just not these things...

• THE MOST HIGH GOD
• THE ALMIGHTY
• Above all gods
• יהוה

...Those titles are exclusive to who Jesus referred to as his Father.



The titles "Lord and God" are not exclusive to Jesus or The Most High:


John 10:34

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Psalm 82:6

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.




The Father and son here are two distinct beings, both being called Lord:

Psalm 110:1

The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.



This was quoted later by The Messiah:

Mark 12:35-37

35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?
36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.



In Genesis 23:6 Abraham was not only called a prince, but also "lord" and "god". The word translated here as "mighty", is the the same word for God as Genesis 1:1 ("In the beginning God"):

Genesis 23:5-6

5 And the children of Heth answered Abraham, saying unto him,

6 Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty (Elohim) prince among us: in the choice of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead.


The words "Lord/My Lord" are used throughout scripture as a sign of honor and respect to someone you look up to. Being called "God or Son of God" is used for those that walk after the spirit as a reflection of The Most High as opposed to walking after the flesh and sin.

These are NOT titles exclusive to The Most High and the Messiah... So it is illogical to use these titles to support the trinity doctrine.

Things that I have already said are in refutation of your statements.

 

[CS1]

Things that I have already said are in refutation of your statements.

the refusal by those who will not accept the truth we are all limited in fully understanding Eternal Godhead is just pride. They have to be right, they will not admit they are limited in this understanding. The pride is blatant, they even speak profanely of the Holy Spirit. Nowhere in the word of God is the Holy Spirit referred to as an "energy " or force.

Jesus has been reduced and the Holy Spirit has been reduced by human reasoning not based on Biblical truth.

They think because they are saying God is greater than the Son and the Son doesn't have the title of " Almighty" are just foolish and ignorant to Who Jesus is. They fail to see IF they were correct, We all would never Bow to Jesus and call HIM LORD God the Father would not allow that by this false teaching.

Just like the JW, and LDS, they attack the Deity of Christ and make the Holy Spirt common or profane to grope their pride.

It is even wrong to debate these types to engage with foolish darken understanding.

 

[SteveEpperson]

Things that I have already said are in refutation of your statements.

It doesn't matter. The indoctrination and brainwashing of the Watchtower organization are so entrenched that it would take years to undo.

I believe our time is better spent protecting new believers than trying to save brainwashed JWs through apologetics.

Just my take on it. Not trying to tell you what to do.

 

[phil36]

Of course Jesus is a distinct Person from the Father in that the Father is a Spirit inhabiting eternity (Isaiah 57:15) without flesh while Jesus is entirely come in the flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).

Wrong...


Jesus is fully God and Fully Human. The God-man. The second person of the Trinity.

 

[phil36]

Yes, of course Jesus fulfilled the law. He did so by changing it from the letter to the spirit. We are no longer bound to obey a set of do's and don'ts (the letter) but we are free to obey the spirit of what is written (Romans 7:6).

You stated that Jesus changed the law. This view is incorrect. The law has not changed what has changed is that those in Christ no longer come under the law.

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Matt 5:18.

 

[MalikB]

Wrong...


Jesus is fully God and Fully Human. The God-man. The second person of the Trinity.

There is no trinity. The holy spirit is not a person.... It is the energy/power from The Most High. The Holy spirit does not have a throne in heaven, and it is not mentioned in most verses with The Father and Son. The entire doctrine is built off of just a few misinterpreted scriptures, and lack of knowledge and/or willingness to look into the language the bible was translated from.

 

[phil36]

There is no trinity. The holy spirit is not a person.... It is the energy/power

Can energy do personal and relational things like, speak think, feel, act, can an energy be personally grieved? No of course not but a person can.. So even without looking at these personal biblical qualities of the Holy Spirit your argument falls at the first hurdle.

Secondly, El shaddai, is a name given to God to describe a characteristic of God, ie, all powerful. Almighty God. The triune God is almighty and all powerful.

 

[CS1]

it is said that a person would say the Holy Spirit is not a person in the context of the word of God which provides description and Personification of the HS.


The Spirit of God who is God is a Person a Being wh is Holy and Eternal

The Spirit of the Lord
The Holy Spirit
The Comforter
Sprit of GOD
The GodHead

all speak to a person(s) not a force. This is profane to speak of. Unbiblical, ungodly, and untruthful.

 

[AandW]

it is said that a person would say the Holy Spirit is not a person in the context of the word of God which provides description and Personification of the HS.


The Spirit of God who is God is a Person a Being wh is Holy and Eternal

The Spirit of the Lord
The Holy Spirit
The Comforter
Sprit of GOD
The GodHead

all speak to a person(s) not a force. This is profane to speak of. Unbiblical, ungodly, and untruthful.

Considering that 3 distinct Titles of the Holy Spirit You listed have [[SPIRIT]] in its Title
The Spirit of the Lord
The Holy Spirit
Spirit of GOD

It perfectly explains better why John 4: Christ claimed God is SPIRIT!

Christ [[was in Person FORM]] when saying God is Spirit!

Seems rather definitively clear enough for myself!

 

[CS1]

Considering that 3 distinct Titles of the Holy Spirit You listed have [[SPIRIT]] in its Title
The Spirit of the Lord
The Holy Spirit
Spirit of GOD

It perfectly explains better why John 4: Christ claimed God is SPIRIT!

Christ [[was in Person FORM]] when saying God is Spirit!

Seems rather definitively clear enough for myself!

Jesus was is in-person form the Spirit of Christ is Eternal and has always been. The Godhead is a Holy mystery.

The Personification of GOd the Father the Creator and Spirit of Christ are facing to face singularly. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God that is a person because a force takes on NO personally or character. The Ocean has no personality yet it is a force, Water doesn't speak BUT our God does. a force doesn't get offended, and judges the nations a person DOES THAT. a force doesn't die a vicarious death as Jesus the person did that who is God in the flesh.