2 Thessalonians 2:3 "the departure" IS intentionally describing the RAPTURE.
- Thread starter cv5
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Taking rapture verses off the table, them claiming you are guided by the Holy Spirit.
Uh huh
lol x144,000
Why is it you are unable to bring forth these pre-trib rapture verses, that you say exist???
Believe what God did say:
When JESUS said He is coming after the tribulation - believe Him - Matthew 24
When the Apostle Paul said No rapture until the Resurrection and no Gathering until the Apostacy- believe 1 Thess 4
When the Apostle John said the Antichrist is coming and "they went out from us" - believe what he said. 1 John 2:18
When JESUS said in Revelation the Saints faced the Antichrist and overcame him by the Blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto death - believe what JESUS says. Revelation 12:11
When JESUS said that there will be NO RESURRECTION until the number set forth by God of the death of His Saints - BELIEVE HIM.
Revelation 6:9-11
Why do you reject God's Word???
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine,
but will be turned aside unto cunningly devised fables = pre-trib rapture
Seek God and His Kingdom first - listen to Him first - Love what He says first:
Jesus explained, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to finish His work. Do you not say, ‘There are still four months until the harvest’? I tell you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are ripe for harvest.
Already the reaper draws his wages and gathers a crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may rejoice together.
For in this case the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ is true. I sent you to reap what you have not worked for; others have done the hard work, and now you have taken up their labor.”
John 4: 34-38
lol x144,000
You never put any on the table.
Follow this Eternal Commandment - It is LIFE or it is Judgment - The power of Life and Death is in the tongue.
Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words
Or He will rebuke you, and you will be proved a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6
Pre-tribbers DO believe this...
...but acknowledge that this Matt24:29-31 passage corresponds with Isaiah 27:9 [Rom11:27],12,13, when the elect of Israel will be gathered into one place upon the earth ("to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM") AFTER the Trib yrs, at the "GREAT trumpet" (... not "caught UP [G726]...TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR")
[more could be said about each of your other entries... but I'm on a deadline for other tasks atm = ) ]
TRANSLATION HISTORY
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either “departure” or “departing.” They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible Page (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).7 This supports the notion that the word truly means “departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”
Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of “departure”? Most scholars say that no one knows the reason for the translation shift. However, a plausible theory has been put forth by Martin Butalla in his Master of Theology thesis produced at Dallas Theology Seminary in 1998.9 It appears that the Catholic translation into English from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate known as the Rheims Bible (1576) was the first to break the translation trend. “Apostasia was revised from ‘the departure’ to ‘the Protestant Revolt,’” explains Butalla. “Revolution is the terminology still in use today when Catholicism teaches the history of the Protestant Reformation. Under this guise, apostasia would refer to a departure of Protestants from the Catholic Church.” The Catholic translators appear eager to engage in polemics against the Reformation by even allowing it to impact Bible translation. By 1611, when then original version of the King James Bible came out, the translators changed the English translation tradition from “departure” to “falling away,” which implied “apostasy.” Such a change was a theological response to the Catholic notion that the Reformation was a revolt against the true church; instead, Protestants saw Catholic beliefs as “the falling away” or “the great apostasy. This would mean that the shift in translation was not based upon research of the meaning of the original language but as a theological polemic against the false teachings of Romanism. It is well established that E. Schuyler English is thought to be the first pretribulationist to propose that “the departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 was a physical departure and thus a reference to the pre-trib rapture. However, history records that at least a couple of men thought of this idea before English’s series of article in 1950.11 J. S. Mabie is said to have presented the view that “the departure” refers to the rapture as early as 1859 during a prophecy conference in Los Angeles.12 He later wrote his view in an article published in November 1895 in a periodical called Morning Star. 13 Another pre-English proponent of “the departure” as the rapture was John R. Rice in a book in 1945.1
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either “departure” or “departing.” They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible Page (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).7 This supports the notion that the word truly means “departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”
Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of “departure”? Most scholars say that no one knows the reason for the translation shift. However, a plausible theory has been put forth by Martin Butalla in his Master of Theology thesis produced at Dallas Theology Seminary in 1998.9 It appears that the Catholic translation into English from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate known as the Rheims Bible (1576) was the first to break the translation trend. “Apostasia was revised from ‘the departure’ to ‘the Protestant Revolt,’” explains Butalla. “Revolution is the terminology still in use today when Catholicism teaches the history of the Protestant Reformation. Under this guise, apostasia would refer to a departure of Protestants from the Catholic Church.” The Catholic translators appear eager to engage in polemics against the Reformation by even allowing it to impact Bible translation. By 1611, when then original version of the King James Bible came out, the translators changed the English translation tradition from “departure” to “falling away,” which implied “apostasy.” Such a change was a theological response to the Catholic notion that the Reformation was a revolt against the true church; instead, Protestants saw Catholic beliefs as “the falling away” or “the great apostasy. This would mean that the shift in translation was not based upon research of the meaning of the original language but as a theological polemic against the false teachings of Romanism. It is well established that E. Schuyler English is thought to be the first pretribulationist to propose that “the departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 was a physical departure and thus a reference to the pre-trib rapture. However, history records that at least a couple of men thought of this idea before English’s series of article in 1950.11 J. S. Mabie is said to have presented the view that “the departure” refers to the rapture as early as 1859 during a prophecy conference in Los Angeles.12 He later wrote his view in an article published in November 1895 in a periodical called Morning Star. 13 Another pre-English proponent of “the departure” as the rapture was John R. Rice in a book in 1945.1
Pre-tribbers DO believe this...
...but acknowledge that this Matt24:29-31 passage corresponds with Isaiah 27:9 [Rom11:27],12,13, when the elect of Israel will be gathered into one place upon the earth ("to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM") AFTER the Trib yrs, at the "GREAT trumpet" (... not "caught UP [G726]...TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR")
[more could be said about each of your other entries... but I'm on a deadline for other tasks atm = ) ]
Good Morning, We should read the entire passage - here it is Isaiah 27:6
In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.
2In that day sing to her,
“A vineyard of [a]red wine!
3I, the Lord, keep it,
I water it every moment;
Lest any hurt it,
I keep it night and day.
4Fury is not in Me.
Who would set briers and thorns
Against Me in battle?
I would go through them,
I would burn them together.
5Or let him take hold of My strength,
That he may make peace with Me;
And he shall make peace with Me.”
6Those who come He shall cause to take root in Jacob;
Israel shall blossom and bud,
And fill the face of the world with fruit.
7Has He struck https://biblehub.com/nkjv/isaiah/27.htm#footnotesIsrael as He struck those who struck him?
Or has He been slain according to the slaughter of those who were slain by Him?
8In measure, by sending it away,
You contended with it.
He removes it by His rough wind
In the day of the east wind.
9Therefore by this the iniquity of Jacob will be covered;
And this is all the fruit of taking away his sin:
When he makes all the stones of the altar
Like chalkstones that are beaten to dust,
[c]Wooden images and incense altars shall not stand.
10Yet the fortified city will be desolate,
The habitation forsaken and left like a wilderness;
There the calf will feed, and there it will lie down
And consume its branches.
11When its boughs are withered, they will be broken off;
The women come and set them on fire.
For it is a people of no understanding;
Therefore He who made them will not have mercy on them,
And He who formed them will show them no favor.
12And it shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will thresh,
From the channel of [d]the River to the Brook of Egypt;
And you will be gathered one by one,
O you children of Israel.
13So it shall be in that day:
The great trumpet will be blown;
They will come, who are about to perish in the land of Assyria,
And they who are outcasts in the land of Egypt,
And shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
Jesus on a cloud.
Gathers the earth
All you can do with it is over generalize it.
It is a gathering that you can not explain.
Very simple to read it and accept it.
Sorry you stumble at it.
lol - so the Lord Jesus Christ is generalizing in His words - If you cannot see what He said John 4, you will not understand Matt 24 and Revelation.
Again - no pre-trib rapture coming from the Mouth of God - only from men whose hearts are blinded by an idol.
Don't be an idol worshipper - Worship God and feed from every word that proceeds fro the Mouth of God
You see generalities - i see His Word - that is what separates us
Christ desires you to see His Words and to Believe His Words
Let me help you
Jesus is SITTING on a cloud DURING THE TRIB.
He is told to harvest the earth of ripe fruit.
Maybe you can understand how simple it is.
Psssst.....it is a gathering.
Very simple
What is Jesus doing harvesting the earth during the trib?
Try and just talk.
We dont need any juvenile name calling
The bible ends in the pretrib rapture.
The parting words of the end of the bible are the SPIRIT AND THE BRIDE SAY COME.
The pretrib rapture is the groom gathering the bride.
Even when shown to you in the 10 virgin parable......you are clueless
Still waiting on you to honor rev 14.
I will wait.
Dont mix it or dilute it. Dont reframe it.
I am so glad i can read it and enjoy it.