The Falling Away - pre-trib rapture or ???

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 3, 2021

ewq1938 said:

Take a look again.

The Greek word in question is translated "so" (not "even so")

2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj

450 [e]
anestē
ἀνέστη ,
rose again
V-AIA-3S

3779 [e]
houtōs
οὕτως
so
Adv

2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
also [translated as the word "even" in some translations, like kjv]
Conj

3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
-
Art-NMS

2316 [e]
Theos
Θεὸς ,
God
N-NMS

IOW, the word "even" in the sentence (the word "kai - G2532" and translated as "also" in some versions) is a completely distinct word (showing in the verse) from that of the word in the sentence "so" ("houto / houtos - G3779").

So, where it lists out how the kjv translates it in its various occurrences, one should look at the one saying "so" ^ (with its accompanying parenthetical definition), which is what I had provided in my post.

See those TWO DISTINCT Greek words in the sentence / verse, here: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/4-14.htm

[Strong's for G3779 ("so") here: https://biblehub.com/greek/3779.htm ... being a DISTINCT WORD from that of the word "even [kai - G2532 - translated "also" in some versions, like the nasb, ylt, asv, etc -- see versions here: https://biblehub.com/parallel/1_thessalonians/4-14.htm ])]

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 3, 2021

[ran out of EDIT time]

https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-14.htm

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 3, 2021

[strikeout asv as one of the examples... for it contains both]

At least... I hope the readers can see where I was coming from... and it's from a place of honest investigation... not in any way intended to mislead.

SOME of the translations DO INDEED show it the way I presented.

The kjv might not... but some version do indeed show it the way I had presented.

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 3, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

...which in the example I had RE-QUOTED (in my Post #161 ^ ) was not the best way to SHOW what it was I was presenting here... which IS at the links I provided, instead... (pretty sure they show there... lol)

One example of another translation (which isn't even exactly how I was explaining above, but SIMILARLY...):

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, in the same way God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.

ewq1938 · Oct 3, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

No, it's definitely translated as two words, "even so". You can see that in KJV:

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:14 ForG1063 ifG1487 we believeG4100 thatG3754 JesusG2424 diedG599 andG2532 rose again,G450 even soG3779 them also which sleepG2837 G2532 inG1223 JesusG2424 will GodG2316 bringG71 withG4862 him.G846

KAI is not "the word "even" " as you claim. It appears as "and" and "also"

1Th 4:14 ForG1063 ifG1487 we believeG4100 thatG3754 JesusG2424 diedG599 andG2532 rose again,G450 even soG3779 them also which sleepG2837 G2532 inG1223 JesusG2424 will GodG2316 bringG71 withG4862 him.G846

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 3, 2021

ewq1938 said:

In my fourth post above ^ (Post #164) I put the following explanation:

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/4-14.htm ["so"]

-- https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-14.htm ["so"]

-- https://biblehub.com/parallel/1_thessalonians/4-14.htm [various versions showing "so"]

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 3, 2021

[continued from last post]

nasb 20 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/nasb20/1th/4/14/ss1/s_1115014 - "so [G3779]"

nasb 95 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/nasb95/1th/4/14/ss1/s_1115014 - "even [G2532] so [G3779]"

--BlueLetterBible

John146 · Oct 4, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

the angels carry the dead down into the heart of the earth ? And those in hell look up at them in Abraham’s bosom ?

“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:

the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it seems like the rich man is looking up to where Lazarus is far off having been carried away by the angels.

I would say the thief is probably among there folk wing redeemed by Jesus who is in heaven seated on his throne in his kingdom

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Just another view though it seems as if there is a kingdom in heaven that is active and there is a city prepared for those who go through the world d find the lord

I don’t think Abraham is in the heart of the earth I think he’s in the city God promised him of faith

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13-14, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and the church is called to that place in Christ

“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I bet the angels took him to that city where the spirits of just men are perfected by the blood of Christ Jesus

Jesus did not ascend until three days later. He told the thief that this day you will be with me in paradise. Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth where he’ll and Abraham’s bosom was located. When he ascended, he set the captives free...on the third day.

Ephesians 4:
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Absolutely · Oct 4, 2021

DavidTree said:

The rapture verses are all pretrib.

Neither of you can discern that

Absolutely · Oct 4, 2021

DavidTree said:

First Commandment of God that saves us - Believe His Word - only His Word = Genesis, Deut 4:1-2, Prov 30:5-6, Rev 22:18-19

'Falling Away' to 'Departure' does not change anything - the Departure is from Truth to the Man of Sin.

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established = Deut 19:15, Matt 18:16, 2 Cor 13:1

This other Faithful Witness is the Apostle John - He also wrote in full agreement to 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Apostle Paul: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Apostle John: Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
1 John 2:18-19

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established = Deut 19:15, Matt 18:16, 2 Cor 13:1

It is complete - the Apostles Paul and John agree -
Apostle Paul - "falling away first"
Apostle John - "they went out from us" -

Apostle Paul - man of sin shall come first
Apostle John - the Antichrist is coming and we are already in the last hour for many antichrists are in the world

Member JTB pointed out a THIRD FAITHFUL WITNESS - the Lord Jesus Christ - Matthew 24:10

Mathew 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,

This is a very serious matter - adding to and taking away from God's words is the sin that leads to heresy and death.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom;
A good understanding have all those who do His commandments.
His praise endures forever.

The two individuals who are seeking to establish their heresy lack understanding and the fear of the Lord.

It only says departure

That is all it says

"From the faith" is implied.

The thing is that neither side has any smoking gun there.

Neither you.....nor they....prove anything

Absolutely · Oct 4, 2021

DavidTree said:

Our Lord Jesus Christ said: "I am the Resurrection"

HE never said 'I am the rapture'.
HE spoke against the error of pre-trib rapture making it null and void to all His Elect/His Saints/His Bride.

Matthew 24 is written and spoken to His Bride, then and now and until His Words are fulfilled.

Beware Brethren of the deception of pre-trib which is a lie from the enemy to divide the Church, which it has done.
Today, the Holy Spirit is calling to those who are His, to reject this lie and stand together in the Word of Truth.
For no lie is of the Truth.

The Way to freedom from error is through obedience to the Word.

I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. John 17

The first and greatest commandment is to love God
Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words
Or He will rebuke you, and you will be proved a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6

By these commandments we can know who speaks truth and who speaks error.

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19

The Holy Spirit and His Bride are calling to you now to flee error and to drink Life Giving Water.

And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:17

Jesus used lot and noah to illustrate the rapture.

I guess you missed Jesus words

DavidTree · Oct 4, 2021

Absolutely said:

But you cannot provide one. Saying what you think is not what the LORD says.

Where is the pre-trib rapture verse in Matthew 25 ?

Are you that foolish that you reject the previous chapter 24 where the LORD says He is Coming after the Tribulation.

The LORD does not lie as you are doing right now - by adding to His words.

Bring forth your pre-trib or, better then that, repent and trun to Christ and His Words.

DavidTree · Oct 4, 2021

Absolutely said:

NOAH is not the pre-trib rapture but it is going through Great Tribulation and being delivered from God's wrath.

walknlight · Oct 4, 2021

DavidTree said:

Agreed! BUT IT IS IN "TYPE"
And several more........THE EXACT EXAMPLE those who are HIS should take note.
Sodom and Gomorah, The Exodus, Abram...etc
p.s. And THE LORD shut the door to the ARK....

DavidTree · Oct 4, 2021

Absolutely said:

Read again Dear Brother in Christ,

Apostle John: Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
1 John 2:18-19

"They went out from us" - the Apostle John and the Church are the US who they went out from = departing from faith in God.

Absolutely · Oct 4, 2021

DavidTree said:

No, i clearly SEE and boy do i SEE even the more so after i read your stuff.
Better get some reading glasses from the Holy Spirit.
You can make your request known to the Father through the Precious Blood of Christ who is seated at the Right Hand of God.

Print this out and put it up on the wall in a spot where you can easily SEE it and Read it everyday.

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. - Proverbs 30: 5-6

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Revelation 22: 18-19

you are consumed with calling to people of God liars.

You can barely make a sentence without your "liar" name calling.

You accuse the brethren that honor the word of God while sidestepping every challenge to your man made doctrine.

walknlight · Oct 4, 2021

DavidTree said:

THEY were never HIS!!!!!!!

DavidTree · Oct 4, 2021

walknlight said:

Please Listen - i LOVE all my Brothers and Sisters in Christ, i care about you guys so much that i am here sharing not what i want to believe - but what God says - we have no other way but His Way.

This is why i post (you call it a mantra) Proverbs 30:5-6 and Revelation 22:18-19

IT is the ONLY way for us to love Him and each other when we read and teach from Scripture.

Otherwise it is a, anything goes - whatever you feel - teaching and ministering.

DavidTree · Oct 4, 2021

Absolutely said:

No Dear Brother - i am consumed with His Love - His Love are His Words in which HE sanctifies us.

I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

If we add to God's words or take away to God's words - the Truth is not in us -
And no lie is of the Truth.

Pre-trib is a lie - reject the words of men and the error or you will be speaking words that never came from God.

Absolutely · Oct 4, 2021

DavidTree said:

Noah and his animals GATHERED into the ark PREJUDGEMENT.
The ark is a type of heaven.

The ark rose OVER A MILE INTO THE SKY (OH YEAH... just like we do in the rapture)

Then AFTER THAT TRIBULATION NOAH RETURNS TO SET UP A NEW KINGDOM.

HELLO?????

YOU HAVE NOW SEEN JESUS DEPICT THE PREJUDGEMENT RAPTURE

....and you missed it.

The Falling Away - pre-trib rapture or ???

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