The Falling Away - pre-trib rapture or ???
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FreeGrace2 said:
Then please quote the verse where Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven.
What is so difficult about my request? Do you simply not understand it or what is the difficulty.
If you believe in a pretrib rapture where Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven, then where is that verse that says so?
Then please quote the verse where Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven.
What is so difficult about my request? Do you simply not understand it or what is the difficulty.
If you believe in a pretrib rapture where Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven, then where is that verse that says so?
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Please quit your lying. Where in Acts 1 does Jesus take raptured believers to heaven? In fact, Jesus LEFT 11 men BEHIND, or did you miss that fact?
In Matt 25, since you claim it's impossibsle to miss, why don't you just actually quote the specific verses? I have no idea which verse(s) in Matt 25 you are imagining shows Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven.
Rev 19 says NOTHING about taking raptured believers anywhere. Doesn't even mention raptured believers.
Matt 24 is clearly about the END of the Trib. You might want to adjust your views based on that fact.
1 Thess 4 also says NOTHING about taking raptured believers to heaven.
Oh sure. "and others". Right. Easy to make claims. Not so easy to prove them.
So, there. I just "went there" and destroyed your fantasies about the rapture.
The better word is "gathering". Found in Matt 24, where the context is the END of the Tribulation, and 2 Thess 2:1 where the gathering is with the Second Advent, also at the end of the Tribulation.
So, once again, you have zero evidence for Jesus taking anyone to heaven after receiving their resurrection bodies.
Are you familiar with the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse?
Have you noticed that it is very possible that the first 3 are already in play?
In Matt 25, since you claim it's impossibsle to miss, why don't you just actually quote the specific verses? I have no idea which verse(s) in Matt 25 you are imagining shows Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven.
Rev 19 says NOTHING about taking raptured believers anywhere. Doesn't even mention raptured believers.
Matt 24 is clearly about the END of the Trib. You might want to adjust your views based on that fact.
1 Thess 4 also says NOTHING about taking raptured believers to heaven.
Oh sure. "and others". Right. Easy to make claims. Not so easy to prove them.
So, there. I just "went there" and destroyed your fantasies about the rapture.
The better word is "gathering". Found in Matt 24, where the context is the END of the Tribulation, and 2 Thess 2:1 where the gathering is with the Second Advent, also at the end of the Tribulation.
So, once again, you have zero evidence for Jesus taking anyone to heaven after receiving their resurrection bodies.
Are you familiar with the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse?
Have you noticed that it is very possible that the first 3 are already in play?
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The Bible clearly instructs that there will be a marriage of the saved with Christ in Heaven.........doesn't common sense tell us that the rapture must take them there in order for it to happen?
The Bible mentions the need to apply common sense about 14 times.
What more do you need to be convinced?
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Carnal common sense will tell you whatever your heart desires - but you will not find it in Scripture.
The marriage first takes place on earth, it is called the Betrothal - go find that and start seeing according to Christ.
The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Let the one who hears say, “Come!” And let the one who is thirsty come, and the one who desires the water of life drink freely. Revelation 22:17
The marriage first takes place on earth, it is called the Betrothal - go find that and start seeing according to Christ.
The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Let the one who hears say, “Come!” And let the one who is thirsty come, and the one who desires the water of life drink freely. Revelation 22:17
Rather, Rev 19 reveals ONLY that the saints aleady IN heaven are prepared for the wedding feast. There are NO WORDS that indicate that the wedding did or was taking place. What the words do show is preparation of what is about to occur.
Followed immediately by accompanying Jesus Christ to earth at the Second Advent.
I would highly recommend that YOU apply some much needed common sense.
What is needed to be convinced that Jesus takes raptured and resurrected believers to heaven is at least ONE verse that says so in very clear and plain language.
And you know as well as I do that there isn't any such verse in the Bible.
Further, the Bible teaches that there is a single resurrection of believers; in Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Clearly, Paul meant one resurrection for each category, the saved and unsav3ed.
Then, the Bible teaches that all believers will be resurrected as a group, all at once, in 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
All believers are resurrected at the same time; when He comes.
Finally, Rev 20:4-6 clearly describe the resurrection of tribulation martyrs as the FIRST resurrection.
Why don't you believe the evidence?
Followed immediately by accompanying Jesus Christ to earth at the Second Advent.
I would highly recommend that YOU apply some much needed common sense.
What is needed to be convinced that Jesus takes raptured and resurrected believers to heaven is at least ONE verse that says so in very clear and plain language.
And you know as well as I do that there isn't any such verse in the Bible.
Further, the Bible teaches that there is a single resurrection of believers; in Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Clearly, Paul meant one resurrection for each category, the saved and unsav3ed.
Then, the Bible teaches that all believers will be resurrected as a group, all at once, in 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
All believers are resurrected at the same time; when He comes.
Finally, Rev 20:4-6 clearly describe the resurrection of tribulation martyrs as the FIRST resurrection.
Why don't you believe the evidence?
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Nope.
Verse 7 (about the "bride" and the "marriage" itself) is DISTINCT FROM verse 9 (about those "having been INVITED to the wedding SUPPER of the Lamb--which is the earthly MK age [ppl on the earth will have been "INVITED" to throughout the Trib yrs]... at least its inauguration, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth).
So, what verse 7 states (as some translations have it) is:
Young's Literal Translation
may we rejoice and exult, and give the glory to Him, because come did the marriage of the Lamb, and his wife [singular] did make herself ready;
Smith's Literal Translation
Let us rejoice, and be transported with joy, and let us give glory to him: for the marriage of the Lamb came, and his wife [singular] prepared herself.
Worrell New Testament
Let us rejoice, and exult, and give the glory to Him; because the marriage of the Lamb came, and His wife [singular] made herself ready."
Again, verse 9 (about "those HAVING BEEN INVITED to the wedding FEAST of the Lamb") is DISTINCT from the above (v.7).
V.9 is where He is now (at this point in the chronology) HEADING BACK DOWN TO (as an "already-wed" Bridegroom), where the contexts about "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" (or, "the MEAL [G347]") take up the next scene in the chronology...
Verse 7 (about the "bride" and the "marriage" itself) is DISTINCT FROM verse 9 (about those "having been INVITED to the wedding SUPPER of the Lamb--which is the earthly MK age [ppl on the earth will have been "INVITED" to throughout the Trib yrs]... at least its inauguration, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth).
So, what verse 7 states (as some translations have it) is:
Young's Literal Translation
may we rejoice and exult, and give the glory to Him, because come did the marriage of the Lamb, and his wife [singular] did make herself ready;
Smith's Literal Translation
Let us rejoice, and be transported with joy, and let us give glory to him: for the marriage of the Lamb came, and his wife [singular] prepared herself.
Worrell New Testament
Let us rejoice, and exult, and give the glory to Him; because the marriage of the Lamb came, and His wife [singular] made herself ready."
Again, verse 9 (about "those HAVING BEEN INVITED to the wedding FEAST of the Lamb") is DISTINCT from the above (v.7).
V.9 is where He is now (at this point in the chronology) HEADING BACK DOWN TO (as an "already-wed" Bridegroom), where the contexts about "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" (or, "the MEAL [G347]") take up the next scene in the chronology...
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FreeGrace2 said:
ather, Rev 19 reveals ONLY that the saints aleady IN heaven are prepared for the wedding feast. There are NO WORDS that indicate that the wedding did or was taking place. What the words do show is preparation of what is about to occur.
Let's just look at the original Greek for our understanding.
Both "marriage has come" and Bride "has made herself ready" are aorist indicatives. These words clearly indicate an event that is about to occur.
But, it is v.9 that clarifies the passage:
English Standard Version
And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”
Berean Study Bible
Then the angel told me to write, “Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”
New American Standard Bible
Then he said to me, "Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he said to me, "These are true words of God."
Most pre-tribbers believe the marriage supper occurs when the resurrected/raptured believers are taken to heaven just before the Trib.
But, v.9 uses words "who ARE invited" rather than "who WERE invited".
The language indicates what is about to occur, not what has already occurred.
What translation uses "those having been invited"?? I checked all the translations on biblehub.com and NONE use those words.
ather, Rev 19 reveals ONLY that the saints aleady IN heaven are prepared for the wedding feast. There are NO WORDS that indicate that the wedding did or was taking place. What the words do show is preparation of what is about to occur.
Let's just look at the original Greek for our understanding.
Both "marriage has come" and Bride "has made herself ready" are aorist indicatives. These words clearly indicate an event that is about to occur.
But, it is v.9 that clarifies the passage:
English Standard Version
And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”
Berean Study Bible
Then the angel told me to write, “Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”
New American Standard Bible
Then he said to me, "Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he said to me, "These are true words of God."
Most pre-tribbers believe the marriage supper occurs when the resurrected/raptured believers are taken to heaven just before the Trib.
But, v.9 uses words "who ARE invited" rather than "who WERE invited".
The language indicates what is about to occur, not what has already occurred.
What translation uses "those having been invited"?? I checked all the translations on biblehub.com and NONE use those words.
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