The Falling Away - pre-trib rapture or ???

[DavidTree]

DavidTree no david tree it's the seperation from it's control over us

That occurs through the Resurrection which is the Transformation of our dead bodies into IMMORTAL GLORIFIED BODIES,

 

[DavidTree]

That’s when the shed blood could be applied. Not one person trusted in his d,b,r for sins before it occurred. That in itself was a mystery.

You greatly err and do not know the Word of God.

How long ago when you were saved by the D.B.R of Christ?

 

[stilllearning]

Beautiful except your last sentence - get rid of the word pre-trib and everything is perfect.

Lot was not pre-tribbed - he was in the very middle of it right to the very End just as Elijah was.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,

And this passage also destroys the lie of pre-trib.

Noah and Lot in the midst of great tribulation leading up to God's wrath but delivered from the wrath of God.

Indeed the hour is coming, yes, has now come, that you will be scattered, each to his own, and will leave Me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace.
In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1.) wait for JESUS
2.) the Ressurection
3.) Delivered from God's wrath - the wrath of the Lamb

I just typed out a two hour reply only to find out can't send replies over a 1000 words........LOL I am pretrib bro, just agree that Noah is not a good example or fitting based on scripture to a pretrib rapture. Would enjoy interacting and discussing our interpretation. However, so that I don't try and fit a whole bunch of concepts or precepts into a single post and get the 1000 word message again.

Can we discuss line by line or one idea at a time until the whole picture is painted?

If so please explain how Noah was delivered when Peter says explicitly he was saved and saved and delivered as defined are not the same thing per what you say here "Noah and Lot in the midst of great tribulation leading up to God's wrath but delivered from the wrath of God."

Noah was saved, he went through it and God kept him safe. The rain fell on him and the water arose so he was not delivered or removed he was in it and God saved him kept a eye out over him.

Lot was removed and the wrath could not fall until he was even a safe distance away as the scripture points out. Lot was removed he had no ark no umbrella that kept him safe as God's wrath came down he was absent it. He was delivered he was removed per the scripture and even per the way Peter explains it.

So Noah was not delivered he was saved per scripture. So not sure how you can say they were both delivered when they were not nor does it say so but points out the very difference of each.

 

[DavidTree]

I just typed out a two hour reply only to find out can't send replies over a 1000 words........LOL I am pretrib bro, just agree that Noah is not a good example or fitting based on scripture to a pretrib rapture. Would enjoy interacting and discussing our interpretation. However, so that I don't try and fit a whole bunch of concepts or precepts into a single post and get the 1000 word message again.

Can we discuss line by line or one idea at a time until the whole picture is painted?

If so please explain how Noah was delivered when Peter says explicitly he was saved and saved and delivered as defined are not the same thing per what you say here "Noah and Lot in the midst of great tribulation leading up to God's wrath but delivered from the wrath of God."

Noah was saved, he went through it and God kept him safe. The rain fell on him and the water arose so he was not delivered or removed he was in it and God saved him kept a eye out over him.

Lot was removed and the wrath could not fall until he was even a safe distance away as the scripture points out. Lot was removed he had no ark no umbrella that kept him safe as God's wrath came down he was absent it. He was delivered he was removed per the scripture and even per the way Peter explains it.

So Noah was not delivered he was saved per scripture. So not sure how you can say they were both delivered when they were not nor does it say so but points out the very difference of each.

You are my kind of Brother when you say - line by line.
Let's keep things easy and straightforward.

Saved = Delivered
No difference here with Noah and Lot = / Car =Auto / Christ =Messiah = Anointed One = Savior = Deliverer

We are saved from God's wrath thru Jesus and we are delivered from God's wrath thru Jesus

 

[ewq1938]

Yep

But that did not happen in Noahs day.

So again

Noah was saved out of tribulation

The tribulation in Noahs day was the flood.

No, that was God's wrath. There was no tribulation. Tribulation is the same as persecution and that didn't happen to Noah or his family.

 

[ewq1938]

So who are these people in heaven. Who were washed in the bloods lamb,

Chapter 4 says no such thing.

Who layed their crowns at his feet.

This is there.

and who are dressed with the robes of righteousness?

Chapter 4 says no such thing.

 

[ewq1938]

That is NOT fact. That is presumption. Noah floated on water that was ON the earth. Do you really think you've left the planet when you are boating on a lake or ocean?

What planet are you from?


No again. The ark is a type of Christ, where salvation is.

Did someone actually say that heaven can be built??

 

[ewq1938]

Ah so you don't understand the pre-trib position, I was agreeing there is no pre-trib rapture in these verses of Mt 24, but I was also saying there is no Post trib here in Matthew 24, In fact I was also trying to give you an answer to How do mortal believers enter into the 1000yr kingdom, for if they are all raptured and changed at the end of tribulation there are no mortal believers left.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

What is this talking about?

 

[ewq1938]

Lot would be the better example of a pretrib rapture since he was spatially removed from one spot to another to be rescued or delivered from the wrath of God.

If Lot is an example of living saints being pre-trib raptured then who in Sodom would be tribulation saints?

Also, does God rain down fire from heaven to the Earth during the great tribulation?

 

[stilllearning]

You are my kind of Brother when you say - line by line.
Let's keep things easy and straightforward.

Saved = Delivered
No difference here with Noah and Lot = / Car =Auto / Christ =Messiah = Anointed One = Savior = Deliverer

We are saved from God's wrath thru Jesus and we are delivered from God's wrath thru Jesus

Can so agree I convolute stuff enough for myself I need no help so line by line is the best approach for me....LOL So again I agree......LOL

I have to say they are different and time was taken to point that out by Peter in the verses.

Peter points out Noah was saved, he was kept, watched over closely guarded. In the inter linear it points out in John 17:21 such a picture of what this means.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. I have kept, phulassó, and none of them is lost.

This prayer of Christ I believe also gives a full picture of how it is fully being used. Verses 12-15
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

It is not a removal at all, but a remaining. However, in that remaining there is a protection a keeping a divine one. Which is what Peter is expressing in 2 Peter when he says Noah was saved or kept or guarded. It is a divine one where God guards. You are in it and go through but God guards. No removal at all.

Which is the picture of what happened with Noah he was not taken out but remained and God saved, watched, kept, guarded over him.

Lot is a totally different picture. In Matthew 27 as Christ hung on the cross they mocked him by saying this in verse 43, He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God

I understand how you are using the word saved and how it can mean deliver and even agree with your example you gave how you used. I am pointing out though how Peter defined it and used it concerning Noah and Lot and it is not the same. One is divine protection not being removed, but saved, watched over, kept while in the situation. Delivered is being removed from the situation as a whole as not even a part of. Which is just what they were mocking Christ with, mocking for God to directly deliver him or remove him.

This is the distinction Peter is making when he uses the two different words to paint two different pictures of Noah being saved and Lot being delivered.

 

[DavidTree]

Can so agree I convolute stuff enough for myself I need no help so line by line is the best approach for me....LOL So again I agree......LOL

I have to say they are different and time was taken to point that out by Peter in the verses.

Peter points out Noah was saved, he was kept, watched over closely guarded. In the inter linear it points out in John 17:21 such a picture of what this means.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. I have kept, phulassó, and none of them is lost.

This prayer of Christ I believe also gives a full picture of how it is fully being used. Verses 12-15
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

It is not a removal at all, but a remaining. However, in that remaining there is a protection a keeping a divine one. Which is what Peter is expressing in 2 Peter when he says Noah was saved or kept or guarded. It is a divine one where God guards. You are in it and go through but God guards. No removal at all.

Which is the picture of what happened with Noah he was not taken out but remained and God saved, watched, kept, guarded over him.

Lot is a totally different picture. In Matthew 27 as Christ hung on the cross they mocked him by saying this in verse 43, He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God

I understand how you are using the word saved and how it can mean deliver and even agree with your example you gave how you used. I am pointing out though how Peter defined it and used it concerning Noah and Lot and it is not the same. One is divine protection not being removed, but saved, watched over, kept while in the situation. Delivered is being removed from the situation as a whole as not even a part of. Which is just what they were mocking Christ with, mocking for God to directly deliver him or remove him.

This is the distinction Peter is making when he uses the two different words to paint two different pictures of Noah being saved and Lot being delivered.

OK - now i SEE where you are at and AGREE FULLY with this distinction between Noah and Lot.

John 17 is the KEY

 

[DavidTree]

Can so agree I convolute stuff enough for myself I need no help so line by line is the best approach for me....LOL So again I agree......LOL

I have to say they are different and time was taken to point that out by Peter in the verses.

Peter points out Noah was saved, he was kept, watched over closely guarded. In the inter linear it points out in John 17:21 such a picture of what this means.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. I have kept, phulassó, and none of them is lost.

This prayer of Christ I believe also gives a full picture of how it is fully being used. Verses 12-15
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

It is not a removal at all, but a remaining. However, in that remaining there is a protection a keeping a divine one. Which is what Peter is expressing in 2 Peter when he says Noah was saved or kept or guarded. It is a divine one where God guards. You are in it and go through but God guards. No removal at all.

Which is the picture of what happened with Noah he was not taken out but remained and God saved, watched, kept, guarded over him.

Lot is a totally different picture. In Matthew 27 as Christ hung on the cross they mocked him by saying this in verse 43, He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God

I understand how you are using the word saved and how it can mean deliver and even agree with your example you gave how you used. I am pointing out though how Peter defined it and used it concerning Noah and Lot and it is not the same. One is divine protection not being removed, but saved, watched over, kept while in the situation. Delivered is being removed from the situation as a whole as not even a part of. Which is just what they were mocking Christ with, mocking for God to directly deliver him or remove him.

This is the distinction Peter is making when he uses the two different words to paint two different pictures of Noah being saved and Lot being delivered.

Signing Out - Good nite

 

[stilllearning]

OK - now i SEE where you are at and AGREE FULLY with this distinction between Noah and Lot.

John 17 is the KEY

Same page so far....LOL Like I said my brother really do wanna hear your position on the rapture and even look forward to it. Which also I want to explain how I came to mine via the bible, the bible for both of is how we arrived at our positions. So I wanna show how I am connecting dots so if I do be in error it can be clearly seen and pointed out.

 

[Clayman]

i am not afraid - and your scripture verse you provided are true but not one is pre-trib rapture.

I am repeating myself here, but my dad use to say to me sometimes for some you have to say something three times before people hear what your saying so ill say it again, I don't think the verses here in Matt 24:29-31 are talking about a pre-trib rapture, In fact they are not even talking about a rapture, so they are not talking about a post trib rapture either.

What they are talking about is the gathering of Israel at the end of the tribulation period. Those that are still alive are gathered back to the land of Israel, and these are mortals (unchanged by a rapture) that enter the messianic kingdom.

Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.


Eze 11:16 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.


Isa 27:12-13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

You said correctly that the Scripture is Harmonious TRUE - but pre-trib is not in Scripture - no lie is of the truth.

Matthew 24 is in perfect Harmony with 1 Thess & 2 Thess and Daniel 7 and 1 John 2:18 and Revelation

No one is able to find just one pre-trib scripture, because it does not exist and never came from the Mouth of God.

Perfect example: You said Matt 24 does not say post trib - i mean come on already - get over yourself - this is childish

Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Ill try and explain again but in a different way, why I see the post trib rapture as illogical here...

Dad picks up the kids from school, there are 7 boys and he refers to them as his little army, he heads home and when the house is in sight mum and the other kids stand at the window and watch dad and his army pull into the drive, the kids with mum are not at school yet(they are tribulation saints)

From a pre-trib perspective in Matt 24 the Son of man appears in the clouds with His army and the tribes of earth will mourn when they see them coming at the end of the tribulation and seems totally logical.

To me from a post trib rapture perspective, the ones who are resurrected and raptured are in the clouds with the Lord coming down to earth, it is totally illogical for the kids at home to be watching the kids in the car with dad, and also be with dad when he pulls into the driveway.

The same for the elect to be watching the Lord come down in the cloud and to also be a part of the rapture and with the Lord is totally illogical.


And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses Rev 19:14

 

[Clayman]

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

What is this talking about?

This seems to be undoubtedly referring to the rapture, my friend

 

[ewq1938]

This seems to be undoubtedly referring to the rapture, my friend

Correct. Now, what is this referring to and keep in mind the same language being used:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

 

[rayzor]

This seems to be undoubtedly referring to the rapture, my friend

There's a real cool song about this with Bill Barrick in Hebrew at the and of lesson one in the Hebrew written in English phonetically

 

[Clayman]

Correct. Now, what is this referring to and keep in mind the same language being used:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

I see two gatherings, one for the church and one for the remnant of Israel, the question to ask is to which are these referring? The one for the Church is the rapture and the one for Israel is just a gathering to Israel.

We know there is a gathering of the remnant after the Lord comes, and they are gathered one by one, which cannot be the rapture.

Since we are looking for examples of the same language being used, notice great trumpet seems to also be used here.

Isa 27:12-13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

There are dozens of verses referring to the gathering of Israel at the end of that day(tribulation) is this the same as the rapture for the Church in your view, or two different gatherings at the same time?

 

[ewq1938]

I see two gatherings, one for the church and one for the remnant of Israel, the question to ask is to which are these referring? The one for the Church is the rapture and the one for Israel is just a gathering to Israel.

I believe both speak about one and only rapture at second coming. is no rapture or gathering of non-Christians. Isa 27:12-13 is something that would have happened to Israel but they failed and the covenant was broken and that has been replaced by NT rapture which is only for Christians.

 

[Clayman]

I believe both speak about one and only rapture at second coming. is no rapture or gathering of non-Christians. Isa 27:12-13 is something that would have happened to Israel but they failed and the covenant was broken and that has been replaced by NT rapture which is only for Christians.

Im Gobsmacked, I didnt pick you as an amil, or one to use amil tactics, that's a lot of verses about Israel gathered into the Kingdom that are in the bible, but now obsolete...

Even Paul would disagree he said 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I guess it should say, All scripture, except the verses that contradict the post tribulation rapture they no longer count, are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Also I see Israel will accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah by the end of the tribulation, so they will be Christians too, Just as the Church is Gods witness to the world at the moment, Israel the nation will also become Gods witness to the world, theres some nice verses expressing or showing this going to happen, but it maybe futile to post them.

Anyway if I may change topic with a question for you, cos now im really curious, what is so important or vital about the post tribulation rapture? Why does it need to happen, why cant the Lord just arrive on earth and resurrect everyone without a rapture? Just what is the main reason for it from your point of view?