How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[Laura798]

I don't think you read carefully what I wrote DWM. Of course when we are raised we receive our celestial bodies--it ALL happens in the twinkling of an eye. We aren't raised and then taken to a celestial department store to select our get up--"Oh I think I'd like the emerald one with the 'eyes all around'--oh and the gold wings please not the silver.'

Dear DWM,

David, the bible is clear that no one is with Christ until after the Judgment at HIs Second Coming. Think of those who did not have their wedding clothes--we must be clothed with our celestial bodies to enter God's Kingdom. Again, the bible says "No one has ascended to the Father, except the Son." The idea that we immediately ascend to heaven is something the protestants got from the catholics and the catholics got from the pagans. Carefully research this and you will discover this truth for yourself.

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who [a]are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep [b]through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [c]and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [d]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, [e]comfort one another with these words.

 

[DavidTree]

Dear DWM,


But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who [a]are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep [b]through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [c]and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [d]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, [e]comfort one another with these words.

Where did Christ find the spirits of the Saints to bring with Him?

 

[Laura798]

Nehemiah6, you will find many who agree with you--Christians, Hindus, Catholics and Muslims. And you will also find many Christians ---but no Catholics, Muslims or Hindus--- who disagree with you.

"13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who [a]are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep [b]through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [c]and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [d]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, [e]comfort one another with these words."--1st Thess 4:13-18

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TDW: I'm not saying you were referencing what I had been referencing... but I'm just wanting to point out to the readers of this thread, that the word/s "naked" / "unclothed" as used in 2 Corinthians 5 (vv.3,4) are NOT used in reference to "sin" or being "defiled by sin," as some suggest this passage to be talking about. It doesn't.

In this context, those words are referring ONLY to the fact of when believers DIE they are apart from / "ABSENT FROM the body" ("unclothed / naked") for a time... UNTIL our Rapture event is due to take place (when they'll rec'v their GLORIFIED bodies which will be like Christ's body was after HIS resurrection--see Lk24:39), and then (all of us thus "changed") we're "CAUGHT UP TOGETHER [/AT THE SAME TIME]"

Half right half wrong -

Well, that's helpful. (Not. )

I have NO clue:

--whether you understood my post (or not); and

--what part of my post is the part you are calling "half right" and what part of my post is what you are calling "half wrong"




If you enjoy being so vague that no one profits from what you've written, fine, that's you're right. I just think it's a waste of everyone's time and we don't end up propelling the convo forward at all. But oh well.

get it all right when you believe all that is written and do not add or take away - amen

And yet, you've supplied no explanation regarding what you put, as to which part you believe is "right" and which part you believe is "wrong".

 

[DavidTree]

Well, that's helpful. (Not. )

I have NO clue:

--whether you understood my post (or not); and

--what part of my post is the part you are calling "half right" and what part of my post is what you are calling "half wrong"




If you enjoy being so vague that no one profits from what you've written, fine, that's you're right. I just think it's a waste of everyone's time and we don't end up propelling the convo forward at all. But oh well.



And yet, you've supplied no explanation regarding what you put, as to which part you believe is "right" and which part you believe is "wrong".

i will correct myself as i am addressing multiple people/thoughts/words at the same time.

You are 2/3 correct - fix the 1/3 = drop rapture since this is last to occur and replace with Resurrection since this is second.

1st - His Coming / Saints are with Him
2nd - Resurrection of the dead in Christ FIRST
3rd - rapture

My apologies for being hasty as fore-mentioned.

 

[Laura798]

Where did Christ find the spirits of the Saints to bring with Him?

David, you are adding to the verse 'heaven'--it does not say that. Note that it says GOD (not Jesus) will bring (figurative/spiritual) with Him those who have fallen asleep THROUGH Jesus. It does NOT say WITH Jesus. This is figurative--all the words in the bible are important even OF/ IN /THE /THRU/ BUT, etc. It says in the same section "16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [d]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (they are NOT coming down to rise again--that would be nonsensical) 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

 

[Laura798]

David, you are adding to the verse 'heaven'--it does not say that. Note that it says GOD (not Jesus) will bring (figurative/spiritual) with Him those who have fallen asleep THROUGH Jesus. It does NOT say WITH Jesus. This is figurative--all the words in the bible are important even OF/ IN /THE /THRU/ BUT, etc. It says in the same section "16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [d]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (they are NOT coming down to rise again--that would be nonsensical) 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

And THROUGH is spritiual--we are IN Him--these kinds of things are very hard to articulate--but THROUGH and WITH are two different things.

 

[DavidTree]

David, you are adding to the verse 'heaven'--it does not say that. Note that it says GOD (not Jesus) will bring (figurative/spiritual) with Him those who have fallen asleep THROUGH Jesus. It does NOT say WITH Jesus. This is figurative--all the words in the bible are important even OF/ IN /THE /THRU/ BUT, etc. It says in the same section "16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [d]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (they are NOT coming down to rise again--that would be nonsensical) 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

You are dodging the question Where did Jesus find the souls of those who he is bringing with HIM ?

 

[Laura798]

Dear Debaters,

I think it is time for me to drop out, but I've enjoyed it in some ways. I'm currently out of work and this has given me something to take my mind off my current troubles--though I believe I've spent too much time here. However, I don't feel I'm really glorifying the Lord in this--I feel we're becoming a bit too argumentative and none of us seem to be being very enlightened by each other. I hope we can all stay brothers and sisters and not let this thread cause bad feelings--something Satan would love nothing more. Cheers and hope to see you all in another thread!

II Timothy 2: 23-24 23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.

 

[Laura798]

David, you are adding to the verse 'heaven'--it does not say that. Note that it says GOD (not Jesus) will bring (figurative/spiritual) with Him those who have fallen asleep THROUGH Jesus. It does NOT say WITH Jesus. This is figurative--all the words in the bible are important even OF/ IN /THE /THRU/ BUT, etc. It says in the same section "16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [d]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (they are NOT coming down to rise again--that would be nonsensical) 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

David--okay just one more--I see I was using the wrong verse. Jesus returns with His Holy Angels:

I know Enoch says 'saints' but angels can also be saints or 'holy ones'

https://forwhatsaiththescriptures.org/2014/08/19/who-accompanies-jesus-second-coming/

While Revelation 19:14 is often assumed to be referring to us (the Church the Body of Christ), Jesus Christ provides the correct interpretation regarding who will accompany Him at His Second Coming:

• “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory” (Matthew 25:31).
• “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his holy angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works” (Matthew 16:27).
• “Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels” (Mark 8:38).
• “For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels” (Luke 9:26).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1st - His Coming / Saints are with Him
2nd - Resurrection of the dead in Christ FIRST

However, as I've mentioned in past post, the text states, "shall God bring WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him" ("how so?" / "how will this occur [since they've died]?" is the question being answered in that chpt 4 text--IOW, that specific phrase ^ relates not merely as to their SPIRITS/SOULS, but to their [resurrected] BODIES AS WELL)

 

[DavidTree]

Dear Debaters,

I think it is time for me to drop out, but I've enjoyed it in some ways. I'm currently out of work and this has given me something to take my mind off my current troubles--though I believe I've spent too much time here. However, I don't feel I'm really glorifying the Lord in this--I feel we're becoming a bit too argumentative and none of us seem to be being very enlightened by each other. I hope we can all stay brothers and sisters and not let this thread cause bad feelings--something Satan would love nothing more. Cheers and hope to see you all in another thread!

II Timothy 2: 23-24 23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.

Very insulting - you need to pray as these were not arguments but rightly dividing the word of truth

David--okay just one more--I see I was using the wrong verse. Jesus returns with His Holy Angels:

I know Enoch says 'saints' but angels can also be saints or 'holy ones'

https://forwhatsaiththescriptures.org/2014/08/19/who-accompanies-jesus-second-coming/

While Revelation 19:14 is often assumed to be referring to us (the Church the Body of Christ), Jesus Christ provides the correct interpretation regarding who will accompany Him at His Second Coming:

• “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory” (Matthew 25:31).
• “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his holy angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works” (Matthew 16:27).
• “Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels” (Mark 8:38).
• “For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels” (Luke 9:26).

Enoch knew the difference between angels and Saints - do you know why?

Secondly, the Lord is coming with BOTH the Saints and the Holy Angels.

Do you know why Paul only mentioned Saints and not the Angels?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

as these were not arguments but

"arguments" is not a "bad" word.

See Acts 9:29 (in some versions)... the word for G4802 in that verse.



[G4802] Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
dispute, enquire, question, reason together.
From sun and zeteo; to investigate jointly, i.e. Discuss, controvert, cavil -- dispute (with), enquire, question (with), reason (together).



Acts 9:29 V-IIA-3S [speaking of Paul...]
GRK: τε καὶ συνεζήτει πρὸς τοὺς
NAS: And he was talking and arguing with the Hellenistic
KJV: and disputed against
INT: also and debated with the

 

[Laura798]

^ Well @Laura798 (per your Post #1539), those verses certainly aren't among the ones I was GUESSING you had drawn from per your conclusions you had stated, by your saying:






[I assumed you had meant "the dead / unsaved / lost / unbelievers"... NO?? Let me go back and read your words in the context of how you may have meant them... Perhaps I was jumping ahead...]




As you know, I do agree "the dead IN Christ" (who will "rise" first / be "resurrected" before the "caught up together" part) and the "we which are alive and remain unto" (who are ALSO "IN Christ") will be "CAUGHT UP [/SNATCHED] TOGETHER"

Hi DWM--I can't recall which one I responded to but I stand corrected--Isaiah--i can't find the tab with the verse, but says 'bodies' are raised--so I guess we area all standing around in our yucky bodies at the Great Throne Judgment and then....we get our celestial bodies? I'll need to pray about that one--it's really astounding and strange to think about.... (but I am confused since it does say we will be changed in a twinkling of an eye--we live in TIME so I guess our mind tries to fit all that happens into TIME. Oy Vey!

 

[DavidTree]

However, as I've mentioned in past post, the text states, "shall God bring WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him" ("how so?" / "how will this occur [since they've died]?" is the question being answered in that chpt 4 text)

The dead in Christ is only refering to those who were in Him when they died on earth.
There spirits went directly to the Lord where they are now.
These are the Saints in Heaven with the Lord now and all who will die in Him unto His Coming.

Therefore they are with Hi now and when the Father says GO - Christ brings with Hi the spirits of the Saints for Resurrection and the Transformation into their Glorified Immortal Bodies.
1 Thess ch4 and 1 Cor ch15 and Rev

 

[DavidTree]

"arguments" is not a "bad" word.

See Acts 9:29 (in some versions)... the word for G4802 in that verse.

correct in the proper usage such as courts and legal disputes which we were/are educating ourselves in.
The there is the negative in the context of force and threats

 

[DavidTree]

Hi DWM--I can't recall which one I responded to but I stand corrected--Isaiah--i can't find the tab with the verse, but says 'bodies' are raised--so I guess we area all standing around in our yucky bodies at the Great Throne Judgment and then....we get our celestial bodies? I'll need to pray about that one--it's really astounding and strange to think about.... (but I am confused since it does say we will be changed in a twinkling of an eye--we live in TIME so I guess our mind tries to fit all that happens into TIME. Oy Vey!

i apologize for assuming wrongly if your use of arguments was not in offense to proper dialogue

PEACE and BLESSING

 

[Laura798]

Very insulting - you need to pray as these were not arguments but rightly dividing the word of truth


Enoch knew the difference between angels and Saints - do you know why?

Secondly, the Lord is coming with BOTH the Saints and the Holy Angels.

Do you know why Paul only mentioned Saints and not the Angels?[/QUOTE


Wow, David--your response is really unkind and I'm surprised you didn't see the intent in what I wrote. Your defensiveness is really hurtful--I won't engage with you any further. "As far as it lies within you, live at peace with all men."

 

[DavidTree]

Just as i suspected - you proved my statement correct by your words - i am free as God sees me.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Therefore they are with Hi now and when the Father says GO - Christ brings with Hi the spirits of the Saints for Resurrection and the Transformation into their Glorified Immortal Bodies.

However, as I've mentioned in past post, the text states, "shall God bring WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him"




[ (the text itself doesn't seem to agree with how you're presenting it)]