How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[TheDivineWatermark]

Runningman said:
In the pre-trib theory, there are no multitudes of Christians who die in the great tribulation and go to heaven. In your doctrine, all of the Christians get raptured out before the GT - Revelation 7:9-14 refutes pre-trib.

Read Rev7:9-17 ...then COMPARE verse 17 with Isa49:10, an earthly Millennial Kingdom passage... and compare the G4165 word in v.17 to the other occurrences of this word in Revelation... to see what it is referencing [see this word also at LINK]

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/7-17.htm

It really does not take terribly long to compare scripture with scripture.

I strongly encourage the readers to do as suggested above ^ .

- Revelation 7:9-14 refutes pre-trib.

[Rev9:9-17] Not in the least does it refute it.

In your doctrine, all of the Christians get raptured out before the GT

"before the GT" = "before the SECOND HALF" (that's the MID-TRIB Rapture" position... not the "PRE-TRIB Rapture" position, for one thing).



But again, more ppl come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture"

 

[Absolutely]

All your comments are ungodly right now - you are a mocker and not walking in or speaking in the Holy Spirit.

You, most especially right now, are the comical one and need a change of heart that aligns itself with what pleases God.

You have completely failed in bringing forth a single scripture where the Lord Jesus Christ or the Apostles have spoken of pre-trib rapture.
You will be kept in your darkness of mocking the Saints who speak the truth and you will be judged for it.

Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord [f]is at hand.
9Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door! 10My brethren, take the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord, as an example of suffering and patience. 11Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.

More policeman baloney.

Get a bible

Study verses outside your postrib workbook teachers.

Then get back to me.

You have zero authority over anyone here.

You have called us liars and of the devil.

You have never presented anything pro postrib rapture.

In fact at one point you pulled the wrath vs trib card.

So really nobody here knows what you actually believe.

Do you ever focus on verses?

 

[Absolutely]

Of course "the great tribulation" (i.e. the SECOND HALF of the 7-yr period) hasn't happened yet, nor has the FIRST half of it started yet (1Th5:2-3 it ARRIVES "exactly like" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"... of those which JESUS SPOKE ABOUT! and which are EQUIVALENT to the SEALS of Rev6)



Read Rev7:9-17 ...then COMPARE verse 17 with Isa49:10, an earthly Millennial Kingdom passage... and compare the G4165 word in v.17 to the other occurrences of this word in Revelation... to see what it is referencing [see this word also at LINK]

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/7-17.htm




Then, note also, "pre-tribbers" are NOT saying that no one will be coming to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture"... THEY WILL... a great many will! (not all ppl, of course)... and Rev7 is just one of the passages regarding this. In other posts in this thread, I listed out a number of OTHER passages showing the same concept...








[I'm not sure whether "abs" sees it this way... his "partial rapture theory" viewpoint and his "multiple raptures" viewpoint is not in alignment with straight-up "pre-trib rapture" viewpoint ]

no doubt many are going to get saved after the rapture

 

[DavidTree]

It really does not take terribly long to compare scripture with scripture.

I strongly encourage the readers to do as suggested above ^ .

When are you going to adhere to your own advice???

Pulling OT scripture to undermine or coax away, even slightly, what CLEARLY is stated by our LORD in Revelation is self serving.

You cannot understand accurately what was prophesied in OT if it is not clarified in NT.

Our LORD and teh Holy Spirit made this clear to the Jews, who knew the Scriptures better then yourself, and yet failed to see their Messiah and other KEY teachings from the LORD.

i remind you that you are not greater in understanding then the Apostles and Revelation Itself.

Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority

It is not for you TDW

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

In the pre-trib theory, there are no multitudes of Christians who die in the great tribulation and go to heaven.

Oh, and P.S. (to my last post)... Not 100% of the ppl who come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture" DIE in the Trib... many of them survive clear to the END of it and ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies capable of reproducing / bearing children (as I've stated in a number of past posts). Dan12:13 being just ONE of those passages...

 

[DavidTree]

More policeman baloney.

Get a bible

Study verses outside your postrib workbook teachers.

Then get back to me.

You have zero authority over anyone here.

You have called us liars and of the devil.

You have never presented anything pro postrib rapture.

In fact at one point you pulled the wrath vs trib card.

So really nobody here knows what you actually believe.

Do you ever focus on verses?

You started on the Right Path to seek truth and then downgraded yourself with pride and empty words.
Until you return to Holy Spirit inspired seeking and speaking, your words are null and void.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority

It is not for you TDW

Grasp that the Greek word for "know" in Acts 1:7, is a DISTINCT [DIFFERENT] Grk "know" word from the one in Matt24:36 (and parallels)... not to mention the one in 1Th5:1-2.

Then grasp that the "knows" word in Matt24:36 (and parallels), and stated BEFORE Jesus' death, is in the "PERFECT indicative," so is not reading in the way you are suggesting it reads.


Also study the "CHRONOLOGY" issues (and progressive revelation IN SCRIPTURE).



I strongly suggest you study this out... (don't take the lazy-man's way out of it)

 

[DavidTree]

Grasp that the Greek word for "know" in Acts 1, is a DISTINCT [DIFFERENT] Grk "know" word from the one in Matt24:36 (and parallels).

Then grasp that the "knows" word in Matt24:36 (and parallels), and stated BEFORE Jesus' death, is in the "PERFECT indicative," so is not reading in the way you are suggesting it reads.

I strongly suggest you study this out...

GRASP the words of the LORD and repent from promoting your desire above the LORD's words.

Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.

By saying, you know, or even can know, you make yourself to be someone that you are not.

We can only accept what has been spoken to us whether in the OT or NT.

At no point, in the NT has the LORD revealed for us = "that which the Father has put in His own authority".

We must protect our hearts from the sin of pride.
The temptation for you Brother is through your intellect and the idol of 'pre-trib'.
Resist this and relinquish unto the LORD that which belongs to HIM and is HIS due from you - follow the example of the 24 Elders.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Pulling OT scripture to undermine or coax away, even slightly, what CLEARLY is stated by our LORD in Revelation is self serving.

I hear you loud and clear... you believe the OT "undermines" what is spoken of in Revelation...








... instead of believing what Acts 3:21 says about the OT prophecies:

"whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His holy prophets from the age."

[that is, the OT PROPHETS and their OT PROPHECIES... the BULK of which pertain to things surrounding the time of [and immediately preceding / leading UP TO] His Second Coming to the earth (and the earthly Millennial Kingdom age that commences at that time) versus His FIRST advent]

 

[cv5]

I'll just leave this here.

Revelation 13:7-9
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9If any man have an ear, let him hear.

Those would be believers post-rapture. Who come to faith ALONG WITH ISRAEL during the 70th week time of God's wrath. Who are the beneficiaries of the preaching of the 144,000 Israelites. Tribulation saints. Who are seen as a group DISTINCT from the other group noted in Rev ch7 (the 24 Elders) who are LIKEWISE of every tribe tongue people and nation. TWO DISTINCT groups, yet with common attributes. Only the premillennial pre-trib rapture doctrine explains all of this flawlessly.

Show us the Greek term "Church" per se anywhere Rev ch 6 and onward. Not to be found. Show us the Church preaching ahywhere Rev 6 and onward. Not to be found.

Tell us how this passage relates to Daniels 70th week. I know. Precisely. Do you?

Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[cv5]

Don't forget
4. Amillennialism, which is the biblical view. Rapture is never mentioned in the Bible. Amillennials know there is no rapture. The word itself was a Mistransliteration by Jerome, in the 4th century AD. He was translating Koine Greek into Latin, but did not know Greek well. He went from harpazo in Greek to rapture in Latin.

I'm a partial preterist. I believe that when Titus razed Jerusalem in 70 AD, the temple caught fire and burned to the ground, and thousands starved to death or died by the sword, etc. That was the tribulation. That was what Jesus warned his disciples about. I believe full preterism is a heresy, because the Second Coming of Jesus has not occurred

This is in fact the correct exegesis of Luke 21....

 

[DavidTree]

I hear you loud and clear... you believe the OT "undermines" what is spoken of in Revelation...








... instead of believing what Acts 3:21 says about the OT prophecies:

"whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His holy prophets from the age."

FALSE - i said YOU cannot use OT prophesy to undermine or change, ever so slightly, the CLEAR commandment of the FATHER.

OT Prophesy is Beautiful, for His Glory and His Elect/the Saints. It speaks of Healing and Restoration and Relation.

OT Prophesy is Frightening, judgment for the world and satan and his angels, and the kings of the earth = Psalm 2

REVELATION is for the servants of our Lord Jesus Christ and for those who seek to "overcomer the world".

 

[cv5]

I'll just leave this here.

Revelation 13:7-9
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9If any man have an ear, let him hear.

Please see Revelation 7:9-14.

Here is yet ANOTHER DIFFERENT group of the redeemed "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues".
Commentary describing this group is given to John (who is now OBSERVING FROM HEAVEN Rev4:1) by an Elder (ALSO IN HEAVEN), spoken from the mezzanine as if watching the entire spectacle play out ON THE EARTH.

How do the post-tribbers come to terms with TWO GROUPS so disparate in time and description, one (the 24 Elders) CLEARLY PRECEDING THE OTHER, yet both having the common attribute of being the redeemed "of every tribe and tongue and people and nation" ???

Evidently ONLY the pre-tribbers have the right answers to this dilemma. in fact the pre-tribbers ALWAYS have all the right answers ALL THE TIME.....EVERY TIME.....

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.

By saying, you know, or even can know, you make yourself to be someone that you are not.

At this point in the chronology, Jesus had already done the John 20:17 "I ASCEND [active]" thing some "FORTY DAYS" earlier.

HE (at this Acts 1 point) already "knows [G1492]"... But this is NOT the "know" word He's using here in Acts 1:7 said to His disciples (who will behold Him traveling up into Heaven in the next few minutes)...

Here He uses the word "know [G1907]"... and of course that is TRUE of them (they would be long dead before the events being referenced! And Jesus is not ignorant to that fact, in this Acts 1 scene!)




Notice also He does not say here "it is not for *us* to know [G1492]"... NO!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

FALSE - i said YOU cannot use OT prophesy to undermine or change, ever so slightly, the CLEAR commandment of the FATHER

I'm NOT saying it's "CHANGED"... I'm saying it AGREES!!!


Revelation 7:17 AGREES with Isaiah 49:10... YOU, however, DO NOT (and you've given no evidence of having done what I suggested: COMPARE the G4165 word found in 7:17 with its OTHER occurrences of this word IN REVELATION to see what it is referencing--I supplied the LINK in that post).




Please read my posts MORE CAREFULLY!!!

 

[Runningman]

Show us the Greek term "Church" per se anywhere Rev ch 6 and onward. Not to be found. Show us the Church preaching ahywhere Rev 6 and onward. Not to be found

My pleasure to show you where the church is mentioned after Rev chapter 6.

Revelation 22:16
16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

This presents a theology problem for pre-trib. Why would the Lord Himself say this testimony is for the church if it wasn't relevant to the church? Pre-trib has to contend with why the great tribulation is relevant to the churches. It's relevant because the church will be present for the great tribulation.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

OT Prophesy is Frightening, judgment for the world and satan and his angels, and the kings of the earth = Psalm 2

Are you sure you're reading ALL of Psalm 2?

Because for those who will HEED His word... you know, the ones that Psalm 2 says to "BE WISE"... and "BE INSTRUCTED"... and "SERVE"... and "REJOICE"... and "KISS THE SON"... and who will be "BLESSED" because they "PUT THEIR TRUST IN HIM"...

...Hello!





[Not 100% of the ppl will reject Him and be quashed! And it is those who put their faith in Him whom He will "rule / shepherd / feed" in the MK age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth... ruling/governing with His "rod / sceptre" of iron (i.e. "righteousness and strength")... Heb1:8 "sceptre of righteousness"]

 

[cv5]

Of course "the great tribulation" (i.e. the SECOND HALF of the 7-yr period) hasn't happened yet, nor has the FIRST half of it started yet (1Th5:2-3 it ARRIVES "exactly like" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"... of those which JESUS SPOKE ABOUT! and which are EQUIVALENT to the SEALS of Rev6)



Read Rev7:9-17 ...then COMPARE verse 17 with Isa49:10, an earthly Millennial Kingdom passage... and compare the G4165 word in v.17 to the other occurrences of this word in Revelation... to see what it is referencing [see this word also at LINK]

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/7-17.htm




Then, note also, "pre-tribbers" are NOT saying that no one will be coming to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture"... THEY WILL... a great many will! (not all ppl, of course)... and Rev7 is just one of the passages regarding this. In other posts in this thread, I listed out a number of OTHER passages showing the same concept...








[I'm not sure whether "abs" sees it this way... his "partial rapture theory" viewpoint and his "multiple raptures" viewpoint is not in alignment with straight-up "pre-trib rapture" viewpoint ]

Yes....there are both MARTYRED tribulation saints and SURVIVOR tribulation saints who populate the Millennial Kingdom, along with surviving Israelites. Both groups are necessary to fulfill the many many Millennial prophecies.

The premillenial pre-tribbers have all of this sorted out beautifully. No so with these other views.

Isa 60:3
The Gentiles shall come to your light,
And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isa 60:5
Then you shall see and become radiant,
And your heart shall swell with joy;
Because the abundance of the sea shall be turned to you,
The wealth of the Gentiles shall come to you.

Isa 60:11
Therefore your gates shall be open continually;
They shall not be shut day or night,
That men may bring to you the wealth of the Gentiles,
And their kings in procession.

Isa 60:16
You shall drink the milk of the Gentiles,
And milk the breast of kings;
You shall know that I, the LORD, am your Savior
And your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

Isa 61:6
But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.

Isa 61:9
Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”

Isa 62:2
The Gentiles shall see your righteousness,
And all kings your glory.
You shall be called by a new name,
Which the mouth of the LORD will name.

Isa 66:12
For thus says the LORD:
“Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river,
And the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream.
Then you shall feed;
On her sides shall you be carried,
And be dandled on her knees.

Isa 66:19
“I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: to Tarshish and Pul[fn] and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

My pleasure to show you where the church is mentioned after Rev chapter 6.

Revelation 22:16
16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

This presents a theology problem for pre-trib. Why would the Lord Himself say this testimony is for the church if it wasn't relevant to the church? Pre-trib has to contend with why the great tribulation is relevant to the churches. It's relevant because the church will be present for the great tribulation.

"...saith unto the churchES" (said 7x in "the things WHICH ARE" section, chpts 2-3).



The thing is, saying "churchES" is not identical to saying "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY";


--in the "churchES" there are both true believers AND those who come in His name but who are not actually vitally connected with Christ (i.e. not actually "saved" persons / believers / saints)

--whereas "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is made up ONLY OF believers (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]")

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

DavidTree said:
Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.

By saying, you know, or even can know, you make yourself to be someone that you are not.

[...]

At this point in the chronology, Jesus had already done the John 20:17 "I ASCEND [active]" thing some "FORTY DAYS" earlier.

HE (at this Acts 1 point) already "knows [G1492]"... But this is NOT the "know" word He's using here in Acts 1:7 said to His disciples (who will behold Him traveling up into Heaven in the next few minutes)...

Here He uses the word "know [G1907]"... and of course that is TRUE of them (they would be long dead before the events being referenced! And Jesus is not ignorant to that fact, in this Acts 1 scene!)

Notice also He does not say here "it is not for *us* to know [G1492]"... NO!

EDIT to correct to "[G1097]" (not "G1907")

... got a bit dyslexic in my haste... lol