What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[TheDivineWatermark]

Did you read the context of 1 Corinthians 1:28?
1 Corinthians 1:28-29
28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29That no flesh should glory in his presence.

This is in reference to being in the presence of God. This isn't about right now in the present on Earth. This is undoubtedly a reference to judgement day.

Disagree. And here's why:


The Greek word for "in His presence" in verse 29 is G1799. It is used also in the following verse...

"Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before [G1799] God?" Luke 12:6

-- https://biblehub.com/text/luke/12-6.htm - Luke 12:6

That is even while the "five sparrows" exist on this earth... not merely awaiting a time when they will stand before Him at the Bema of Christ. No, EVEN NOW, it means!





...see the same G1799 word in your verse 29 of the passage at top...

-- https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/1-29.htm "... before [G1799] God" ["in His presence" kjv]

 

[cv5]

I got it the first time. You get your doctrine from Demons. Doesn't surprise me. That's likely how Rome got their doctrine of eternal torture as well. Do you also listen and agree with what Satan teaches?

Nice talking with you buddy. But it's time for you to go. Again. To iggy. We will chat later okay?

 

[TMS]

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Please explain ... eternal death which = eternal punishment, death that is eternal.
OR ... eternally dying and eternally suffering never able to die, eternally paying the price.

 

[Yahshua]

I read your entire post

Appreciate it! I did the same.

...I'm just saying that ONLY the "1260 days of the 2W testimony" is the one that STRADDLES the two halves (due to what I explained, as well as Rev8:13's info)...

...as I see the "2W's 1260 days" to STRADDLE the two halves (with the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth" being MID-trib... when Rev9:1-2's "opened the bottomless pit / abyss" takes place); whereas the "2W" are killed (and then are resurrected and ascend up into Heaven) at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" (that is, AFTER the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth").

[Wait a sec! There IS a way I can still use tables. I'll just make them elsewhere and then screenshot! I'll have to try it after this post.]

Ok, if I can summarize what you're saying; you believe from the breaking of the 1st seal to the pouring of the last bowl/vial is the entire 7-year tribulation. And visually (as it concerns the two witnesses) the one mention of 1260 days is an overlap between the 1st half and the 2nd half...

[1st half].........mid-trib.........[2nd half]
(...5th trp)[2W = 1260 days](6th trp...)

​

...and that the OTHER mentions of these various phrases ALL refer to the SECOND HALF ONLY (of the 7 yrs), i.e. "THE GREAT tribulation" Rev7:14 (which commences only at the AOD per Matt24:15 referring back to Dan12:11 "AOD *SET UP*"

Visually trying to place the other mentions of timeframes in the 2nd half...

[1st half].........mid-trib.........[2nd half]
(...5th trp)[2W = 1260 days](6th trp...)​

.......................................................(other 1260 days // 42 months)​

​

All this means there is TIME preceding the point when the AOD occurs (MID-trib / MID-of-7-yrs) in which he will exist doing things pertinent to his role (man of sin / the antichrist / beast-"king/leader"-aspect stuff), too.

Visually...

[1st half].........mid-trib.........[2nd half]
(...5th trp)[2W = 1260 days](6th trp...)
[AC hidden](AOD)[AC public]​

.......................................................(other 1260 days // 42 months)​

​

All that to say, the "TIME-PERIOD" (involving the "person" aspect of the beast) doesn't just suddenly commence at Rev13, halfway through the entire book of Revelation

Ok. But was this leading to whether the antichrist is human or not (as it relates to the lake of fire)? Or were you just making a clarification of your position regarding the 1260 days?

 

[Laura798]

Say what? I find TDWs posts to be ineffably sublime. Every one of them a prodigious scholarly tour de force. Positively singing wisdom and ringing truth redoundingly in my ears.

So you're saying that they make your head hurt? Maybe you can start with the easy parts first and move on from there....

CV5 you said: "Say What? <

My sentiments exactly-- to this:

"I find TDWs posts to be ineffably sublime. Every one of them a prodigious scholarly tour de force. Positively singing wisdom and ringing truth redoundingly in my ears."

Again, I think we need to take a vote. No posting while inebriated or high.. I also suggest not reading 19th Century Romance novels for extended lengths of time-, "e.g. "ineffably sublime"-

 

[Yahshua]

CV5 you said: "Say What? <

My sentiments exactly-- to this:

"I find TDWs posts to be ineffably sublime. Every one of them a prodigious scholarly tour de force. Positively singing wisdom and ringing truth redoundingly in my ears."

Again, I think we need to take a vote. No posting while inebriated or high.. I also suggest not reading 19th Century Romance novels for any length of time-, "e.g. "ineffably sublime"-

View attachment 232660

lol If I'm honest, I think I'm developing a case of Hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And visually (as it concerns the two witnesses) the one mention of 1260 days is an overlap between the 1st half and the 2nd half...

[1st half].........mid-trib.........[2nd half]
(...5th trp)[2W = 1260 days](6th trp...)
​

​

Hmm... yes to the comment "from the first seal to the last vial is seven years" (2520 days)...

but I cannot tell by your depiction above, whether you think I meant that the "2W's 1260 days" spans BETWEEN the 5th and 6th Trumpet [events], as tho the 5th and 6th Trumpets occur THAT FAR APART... I'm not saying that... or whether your depiction is saying (as I did say) the MID-trib point is at the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe into the earth" (basically right around then). I guess I'm not seeing that being expressed in your ^ "illustration" (I do realize it is very difficult to do without the right tools, on this board... so I understand... I could just be viewing your pic incorrectly and not as you intended to convey it. )

But yes, I see the "2W's 1260 days" (theirs only) to STRADDLE the two halves... with the seals preceding those [their] 1260 days, and the vials [also the 7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe] following those [their] 1260 days... roughly that. = )

 

[Laura798]

What I'm saying is that they have more understanding than you do......

What's more, demons were blurting out the truth about the Son of God time and time again if you're paying attention. They were blurting out the truth about the apostles too. They perceived things that men did not.

1. But yeah demons know perfectly about the end times. You don't.
2. They understand exactly what Gehenna fire is. You don't.
3. They understand that they are fated to eternal punishment. You don't.
4. They understand the sovereignty and judgment of God. You don't.

4 POINTS WON BY THE DEMONS


Okay, according to my estimate--at least using this post-- the Demons win 4 and the Christians here win 0?
CV5 you may be cheering for the demons, but the angels are the ones keeping SCORE for us--and just heard them shout,

Go team!!!

 

[Laura798]

lol If I'm honest, I think I'm developing a case of Hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia.

Oh no, hang on Yahshua! I'm on the call with 911--they're just trying to type--it ----out. "Oh no, wait--don't hang up!"

Oh dear...sorry.

 

[cv5]

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Please explain ... eternal death which = eternal punishment, death that is eternal.
OR ... eternally dying and eternally suffering never able to die, eternally paying the price.

I don't see God wiping tears from the eyes of condemned demons, Satan or damned unbelieving men. Do you?

In fact Jesus says just the opposite is prepared for them....weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Glory, joy, rest, comfort, relief for the justified and redeemed though.

Doom for Worshipers of the Beast

Rev 14:9 - And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any MAN worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Rev 14:10 - The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[Laura798]

I don't see God wiping tears from the eyes of condemned demons, Satan or damned unbelieving men. Do you?

In fact Jesus says just the opposite is prepared for them....weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Glory, joy, rest, comfort, relief for the justified and redeemed though.

Doom for Worshipers of the Beast

Rev 14:9 - And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any MAN worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Rev 14:10 - The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

CV5, It's important to note that weeping has to do with sorrow,--people do not weep when they are in agony, they SCREAM. Additionally,the bible often shows angry people gnashing their teeth--like when they stoned Stephen. Gnashing of teeth can also be done in deep regret.

Note too in the parables it says there is weeping and gnashing of teeth when they are thrown into outer darkness and when they see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob entering the kingdom of heaven, but they themselves cast out. So, clearly this weeping and gnashing is figurative, not literal.

The bible says there will be NO MORE SORROW--that isn't just in the heavenly kingdom-it is everywhere!

--"Behold, I make ALL things new!"

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Visually...

[1st half].........mid-trib.........[2nd half]
(...5th trp)[2W = 1260 days](6th trp...)
[AC hidden](AOD)[AC public]​

.......................................................(other 1260 days // 42 months)​

My viewpoint is not that 2Th2:4b "who SITTETH" ( ) is WHEN he is "revealed". NO. I know that is commonly understood to be what occurs.

So my viewpoint is NOT that he is "hidden" in the first half... but that his "be revealed" occurs AT SEAL #1 at the START of the "7 yrs" (aka what Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 are pointing out... one specific person-of-interest, because there will be "MANY" before and surrounding his "whose COMING [/ ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia]" 2Th2:9a... "IN HIS TIME" v.6 (etc... too much to cover at this late hour ... I need to eat! LOL). But yes, the second half (Rev9:1 5th Trumpet being MID-trib) will be when there's the added factor of the abyss having been opened (so Rev17:8[3] make reference to this, as does 11:7, as you know).

 

[Yahshua]

​

Hmm... yes to the comment "from the first seal to the last vial is seven years" (2520 days)...

Ok.

but I cannot tell by your depiction above, [...] I could just be viewing your pic incorrectly and not as you intended to convey it. )

But yes, I see the "2W's 1260 days" (theirs only) to STRADDLE the two halves... with the seals preceding those [their] 1260 days, and the vials [also the 7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe] following those [their] 1260 days... roughly that. = )

Phew! Ok, remove the "two halves" part and you have my view roughly speaking. I think there's entirely too much judgment detailed in Revelation to fit in just 7 years...but the specific 1260 day portion - at the 6th trumpet, and each time it's mentioned again in the book - is the same "Great Tribulation" portion of that total judgment.

My viewpoint is not that 2Th2:4b "who SITTETH" ( ) is WHEN he is "revealed". NO. I know that is commonly understood to be what occurs.

So my viewpoint is NOT that he is "hidden" in the first half... but that his "be revealed" occurs AT SEAL #1 at the START of the "7 yrs" (aka what Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 are pointing out... one specific person-of-interest, because there will be "MANY" before and surrounding his "whose COMING [/ ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia]" 2Th2:9a... "IN HIS TIME" v.6 (etc... too much to cover at this late hour ... I need to eat! LOL). But yes, the second half (Rev9:1 5th Trumpet being MID-trib) will be when there's the added factor of the abyss having been opened (so Rev17:8[3] make reference to this, as does 11:7, as you know).

lol. Yes, It's late for me too.

 

[Yahshua]

Oh no, hang on Yahshua! I'm on the call with 911--they're just trying to type--it ----out. "Oh no, wait--don't hang up!"

Oh dear...sorry.

Apparently, it's contagious!

lol, this was good. I laughed out loud in this quiet house.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[EDIT to ADD to my previous post] ^ To put it another way:

[the seven years (2520 days), re: the man of sin / the antichrist]


-- "whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia" (his "be revealed") - 2Th2:9a,8a,[3b,6b] -- BEGINNING of 7 yrs (i.e. SEAL #1... aka the INITIAL "birth PANG" that Jesus spoke of [and Paul spoke of]);

--"who SITTETH" - 2Th2:4b -- MIDDLE of 7 yrs (5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth; 1260 days remaining until Christ's "RETURN" to the earth)

-- "whom the Lord shall CONSUME... ANNUL... by the MANIFESTATION of His presence / parousia" - 2Th2:8b -- END of 7 yrs (7th Vial / Armageddon time-slot)



... Paul is covering ALL SEVEN YEARS in his 2Th2 passage (not merely 3.5 yrs, as many suppose)... once all the dots are connected...





[again: Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 is saying that the "future" aspects of the book are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"]

 

[Laura798]

Apparently, it's contagious!

lol, this was good. I laughed out loud in this quiet house.

It's a relief to hear your feeling better---and so quickly! --sleep tight!

 

[TMS]

I don't see God wiping tears from the eyes of condemned demons, Satan or damned unbelieving men. Do you?

In fact Jesus says just the opposite is prepared for them....weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Glory, joy, rest, comfort, relief for the justified and redeemed though.

Doom for Worshipers of the Beast

Rev 14:9 - And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any MAN worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Rev 14:10 - The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The wicked and sinful deeds that are not repented of will be punished their punishment is waiting for them. But God has no joy in punishing the wicked. The unsaved will know that they missed out on eternal life and they will welcome death, God is not a monster and will destroy all that are not saved including the demons and death will be no more.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This verse may imply eternal suffering...
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The word for "ever and ever" can mean an age and a time or extended time a course, and it can mean eternal but we know that suffering and sin do end so it is an more likely an extended time.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

We know Sodom isn't burning today .....

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Please explain ... eternal death which = eternal punishment, death that is eternal.
OR ... eternally dying and eternally suffering never able to die, eternally paying the price.

I don't understand why anyone would presume that these blessings extend to devils & those in open rebellion against to God.

 

[Runningman]

Disagree. And here's why:


The Greek word for "in His presence" in verse 29 is G1799. It is used also in the following verse...

"Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before [G1799] God?" Luke 12:6

-- https://biblehub.com/text/luke/12-6.htm - Luke 12:6

That is even while the "five sparrows" exist on this earth... not merely awaiting a time when they will stand before Him at the Bema of Christ. No, EVEN NOW, it means!





...see the same G1799 word in your verse 29 of the passage at top...

-- https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/1-29.htm "... before [G1799] God" ["in His presence" kjv]

While it's true, I believe, that God maintains a presence literally everywhere and knows all things, I am sure that 1 Corinthians 1:28-29 is referring to the presence of God at the GWTJ because it's testable.

Luke 12:6 has birds on earth in God's presence, that's fair.

But did you notice in 1 Corinthians 1:28-29 that it's about no flesh glorying in His presence? But, since we've established that on Earth even birds are in the presence of God, then people are in the presence of God too. what if we find Biblical evidence to support people having glory in God's presence on Earth?

Here's a few appetizers:

Romans 2:23
23Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

2 Corinthians 11:30
30If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

James 1:9
9Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:

So this glorying before God's presence is possible on Earth, but 1 Corinthians 1:29 says that no flesh will glory in His presence. Yet we find clearcut examples of flesh glorying in His presence on Earth.

Since the Bible is never wrong, i believe 1 Corinthians 1:28-29 is referring to the GWTJ presence. By process of elimination, we see that the only available place for flesh to not have opportunity to glory before God would be at judgement.

Why does this matter? Because we need to establish that "bring to nought" can mean destroyed.

 

[Laura798]

I don't understand why anyone would presume that these blessings extend to devils & those in open rebellion against to God.

Lucy, did you notice the semicolons? Those are three independent, though related statements. Why are they related? They are related because they are all the good things God will do at the end of the age.

1. He wipes all tears from their eyes. (figurative language--literally there will be nothing to cry about anymore)
2. There will be NO MORE death, sorrow, crying, or pain. NO MORE means just that--no more in all of God's Heavenly Kingdom
3. The former things are passed away

I am disturbed at how ETC'ers cling to this myth of eternal conscious torment--if you truly believe this, I would think you would be in a state of constant worry and fear for your friends and loved ones. This false doctrine is one of the reasons given by unbelievers for rejecting the Christian faith and rejecting Christians--any human that would follow a supposedly loving God who would do something so diabolical---must not be a very good person themselves.

Even God condemned the sacrifice of children to Baal by fire. Where do you see anywhere that God used fire as a form of punishment? The worst punishment we have on this earth is death. Anyone who tortures a human being or even an animal is clearly seen as evil.

PS Nearly all of us Annihilationist were raised in churches that taught this myth. We have studied the word on our own--for me it took just a few minutes to see what had been right in front of my eyes the whole time.
Again--there are a multitude of LITERAL verses that say plainly the punishment for sin is death/destruction in contrast to a handful of figurative ones--note that the same figurative ones are posted over and over again "tormented day and night...forever and ever"--being their favorite pet. Theologically it can't be true since scripture says Christ DIED in our place. If Death isn't' the punishment for sin then that would mean you would have to believe Christ is or will be in eternal conscious torment for all eternity.