What are you thoughts on Annihilation?
- Thread starter Radius
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Well, no offense (I like you Yahshua 
), but you didn't seem to blink an eye to the following comment quoted from Post #222, which you gave a hearty "LIKE" to:
"Frankly I feel like I am trying to share rational arguments with people from the dark ages who did not have at their disposal the Holy Scriptures."
I mean, that comment seems to be directed at "people" (in this thread), right?
Are those words particularly "gracious"? (especially since the "people" really were providing scriptural reasons for the viewpoint they were presenting, just as that person/commenter perceived themselves to be doing).
), but you didn't seem to blink an eye to the following comment quoted from Post #222, which you gave a hearty "LIKE" to:"Frankly I feel like I am trying to share rational arguments with people from the dark ages who did not have at their disposal the Holy Scriptures."
I mean, that comment seems to be directed at "people" (in this thread), right?
Are those words particularly "gracious"? (especially since the "people" really were providing scriptural reasons for the viewpoint they were presenting, just as that person/commenter perceived themselves to be doing).
Respectfully, If you'd like to crawl through my interactions on here you'll see that whenever someone in opposition to my position particularly speaks in generalities against those of my position I hold no issue with them because their statements are not directed "at the person" (Ad hominem).
If one were to speak in generalities (< exactly like this sentence is starting off), one has a right to their opinion and others have the freedom to choose to accept the criticism personally or not, whether in agreement with the opinion or not. This is proper.
Finally, it's a "like". Not a "hearty" like, not a "timid" like. Just a "like". One can gauge no decree to which a "like" is given so let's not embellish for a stronger effect. (It would be more of a statement if it was a medal i gave.)
-
1
- Show all
As your Strongs insert shows, the word is an adjective. Adjectives modify words paired with them, they don't define them.
Let's go ahead and define "aiōnion" as "forever to infinity.". Let's make it the longest time one could ever imagine. You still need to establish your argument for "suffering alive forever" which should be focused on the words "kolasin" and "zōēn".
Let's go ahead and define "aiōnion" as "forever to infinity.". Let's make it the longest time one could ever imagine. You still need to establish your argument for "suffering alive forever" which should be focused on the words "kolasin" and "zōēn".
Psalm 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be
as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."
In the entire Bible, there is not one single verse that records anything to
the affect that "everyone has eternal life; it's only a matter of where each
will spend it." Yet this is what a majority of the church today believes.
Believers inherit life eternal by grace through faith. All others perish.
We are explicitly told that Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example
of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Are they burning to
this day? No! They were destroyed and are no more. For, as I have often
told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as
enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction...
Apollumi
as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."
In the entire Bible, there is not one single verse that records anything to
the affect that "everyone has eternal life; it's only a matter of where each
will spend it." Yet this is what a majority of the church today believes.
Believers inherit life eternal by grace through faith. All others perish.
We are explicitly told that Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example
of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Are they burning to
this day? No! They were destroyed and are no more. For, as I have often
told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as
enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction...
Apollumi
-
2
- Show all
Play your games. I'll stick with the Bible.
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
-
1
- Show all
No games... But ok let's go this route so that I'm not repeating old posts.
Would you agree that the fulfillment of the above passage occurs at Revelation 20:12-15, after your passage quoted below?
If you agree with my first question, who are the "they" in Revelation 20:10 if we're sticking with the bible?
Would you agree that the fulfillment of the above passage occurs at Revelation 20:12-15, after your passage quoted below?
If you agree with my first question, who are the "they" in Revelation 20:10 if we're sticking with the bible?
Right.
One has to wonder why these two won't have been "incinerated" by then (considering the length of time they will have already spent in there by the time of the GWTj, when satan will then be "cast into"), if that was the purpose and function of "the lake of fire" (to "annihilate" or "obliterate" them). It's not.
Yes... and the phrase is "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" which means the SAME thing all 21x it is used (both in and outside of Revelation).
One has to wonder why these two won't have been "incinerated" by then (considering the length of time they will have already spent in there by the time of the GWTj, when satan will then be "cast into"), if that was the purpose and function of "the lake of fire" (to "annihilate" or "obliterate" them). It's not.
Yes... and the phrase is "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" which means the SAME thing all 21x it is used (both in and outside of Revelation).
-
1
- Show all
^ @ewq1938 , sorry, that doesn't cut it.
The text CLEARLY STATES "and THEY [PLURAL - V-FIP-3P] SHALL BE TORMENTED [future tense] day and night UNTO THE AGES OF THE AGES" [<--a phrase that NEVER means a "LIMITED" time-frame... in ALL 21x it is used!]
-- https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/20-10.htm
The text CLEARLY STATES "and THEY [PLURAL - V-FIP-3P] SHALL BE TORMENTED [future tense] day and night UNTO THE AGES OF THE AGES" [<--a phrase that NEVER means a "LIMITED" time-frame... in ALL 21x it is used!]
-- https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/20-10.htm
-
1
- Show all
"THEY" is not referring to Satan / the devil alone.
In this verse (v.10) Satan alone is the "singular" one being "was cast [singular] into" (at this GWTj point, at v.10)... but the verse goes on to say, "and THEY [PLURAL] shall be..." (because the other two ARE STILL THERE from when they were "cast into" 1000 yrs prior)
In this verse (v.10) Satan alone is the "singular" one being "was cast [singular] into" (at this GWTj point, at v.10)... but the verse goes on to say, "and THEY [PLURAL] shall be..." (because the other two ARE STILL THERE from when they were "cast into" 1000 yrs prior)
-
1
- Show all
That doesn't cut it either.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Here the Devil is said to be tormented day and night for ever we can't assume “day and night forever and ever” is literal based on other scriptures that use the same type of language non-literally:
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
Isaiah uses the same language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning and people do pass through that area yet the verse says none shall pass through that area forever and ever. This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.
Another example where "forever" does not mean forever:
Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning therefore this eternal fire does not imply the target burns eternally but that this fire exists eternally whether it has something to burn or not and since God is a consuming fire it makes sense that it is eternal because God is eternal.
Phm 1:14 But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.
Phm 1:15 For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;
Of course this is impossible for mortal people to do which renders this as a figure of speech rather than literally "for ever".
Heb_2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Even the devil will be destroyed.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
He will be devoured by fire, turned to ashes and shall never exist anymore. That's Annihilation.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Here the Devil is said to be tormented day and night for ever we can't assume “day and night forever and ever” is literal based on other scriptures that use the same type of language non-literally:
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
Isaiah uses the same language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning and people do pass through that area yet the verse says none shall pass through that area forever and ever. This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.
Another example where "forever" does not mean forever:
Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning therefore this eternal fire does not imply the target burns eternally but that this fire exists eternally whether it has something to burn or not and since God is a consuming fire it makes sense that it is eternal because God is eternal.
Phm 1:14 But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.
Phm 1:15 For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;
Of course this is impossible for mortal people to do which renders this as a figure of speech rather than literally "for ever".
Heb_2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Even the devil will be destroyed.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
He will be devoured by fire, turned to ashes and shall never exist anymore. That's Annihilation.
"they" is not in the verse:
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Technically the verse only addresses Devil as the one to be "tormented day and night for ever and ever" and that is likely a figure of speech since other scripture says he will be destroyed:
Heb_2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Even the devil will be destroyed.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
He will be devoured by fire, turned to ashes and shall never exist anymore. That's Annihilation.
-
1
- Show all
Well, no offense (I like you Yahshua ), but you didn't seem to blink an eye to the following comment quoted from Post #222 (page 12), which you gave a hearty "LIKE" to:
"Frankly I feel like I am trying to share rational arguments with people from the dark ages who did not have at their disposal the Holy Scriptures."
I mean, that comment seems to be directed at "people" (in this thread), right?
Are those words particularly "gracious"? (especially since the "people" really were providing scriptural reasons for the viewpoint they were presenting, just as that person/commenter perceived themselves to be doing).
), but you didn't seem to blink an eye to the following comment quoted from Post #222 (page 12), which you gave a hearty "LIKE" to:"Frankly I feel like I am trying to share rational arguments with people from the dark ages who did not have at their disposal the Holy Scriptures."
I mean, that comment seems to be directed at "people" (in this thread), right?
Are those words particularly "gracious"? (especially since the "people" really were providing scriptural reasons for the viewpoint they were presenting, just as that person/commenter perceived themselves to be doing).
Divine Watermark,
There is a difference between 'gracious' and 'tongue in cheek humor'--I say that because we have quoted hundreds of verses--hundreds! of verses that refute ETC. And yet not one person on the ETC side seems to see how overwhelmingly the Scriptures themselves PROVE ETC absolutely false.
Methinks the problem is too, that the ETC'ers read EVERYTHING so literally! In addition to being befuddled by figurative vs literal language they often have difficulty as demonstrated by this forum--- understanding humor, turns of phrase, witticisim, etc.
Yes it is... it's in the PLURAL FORM of the verb ( basanisthēsontai "3rd person PLURAL )... which is ONE WORD in the Greek... not three, as I bolded in your post above.
-- " basanisthēsontai " translates to "THEY shall be tormented" (PLURAL persons... not just a singular one)
-- https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/20-10.htm
You're reaching...
-- " basanisthēsontai " translates to "THEY shall be tormented" (PLURAL persons... not just a singular one)
-- https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/20-10.htm
You're reaching...
-
1
- Show all