Sheol

[SteveEpperson]

As I said, those references are in this thread. I'm not an expert on the subject.

Actually, they are not. And I'm still waiting.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Actually, they are not. And I'm still waiting.

Oh, ok. I'm very sorry.

 

[Magenta]

Yes, blood is now the life. No blood, no life. It’s what makes us mortal. That was not Adam’s state before the fall.

Scripture verse, please.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

It seems to me that the "state" of Adam is the Nature of Adam. Therefore, what was the Nature of Adam?

I've read the entire Bible in a timeline, Chronological order several times, once even looking for the answer to this question. Here's what I found (and may be wrong):

There are three basic Natures:

1. Human Nature
2. Sinful Nature
3. Divine Nature

Before the fall of Adam and Eve, we know that they didn't have the Sinful Nature, and it seems fair to say that they did not possess the Divine Nature, otherwise they would have been Led by the Indwelling Holy Spirit and would not have fallen.

But here is what is interesting . . . the Human Nature is defined as "Servant." If this is True, then they would serve whatever came along and gave them suggestions. Thus, when the Devil tempted Eve, her Servant Nature essentially said, "Sure. Okay. I'll eat." and Adam followed that path.

The Purpose of Christ is to remove the Sinful Nature and replace it with the Divine Nature, and when He accomplishes such a feat, that becomes the Work of Christ. By replacing the Sin Nature with the Divine Nature, a changed heart is produced, and a changed Heart becomes obedient. This is the Effect of Christ.

As far as I am able to determine, Adam and Eve were the only two who ever went from the Human Nature (alone) and sent into incredible turmoil when they went from perfection to corruption. It must have been overwhelming to realize the difference between perfect thinking and corrupted thinking.

The state, or Nature of Adam and Eve [prior] to their fall was that of the Human Nature . . . nothing more.

But again, I may be wrong. I'm just a human, after all.

 

[Magenta]

Adam and Eve were seen as good, and then very good during
the process of creation... not perfect. We are perfected in Christ.

It seems redundant to have human nature, and sinful nature, as
separate in your list, since human nature is inherently sinful.

 

[Magenta]

Studying the Bible about forbidden fruit. The only named fruit forbidden is the grape, forbidden to those separated unto God through the Nazarene vow. Grape juice is a type of blood, and blood is forbidden in both testaments.

Only those who took the Nazarite vow were to abstain from the fruit of the grape vine, or anything made from it. Neither were they to cut their hair, or allow themselves to become ritually impure such as by being near or touching a dead body, or grave. Their dedication was for a period of time only, the shortest being thirty days. One who declared them self a permanent Nazarite had slightly different laws apply.

 

[John146]

Only those who took the Nazarite vow were to abstain from the fruit of the grape vine, or anything made from it. Neither were they to cut their hair, or allow themselves to become ritually impure such as by being near or touching a dead body, or grave. Their dedication was for a period of time only, the shortest being thirty days. One who declared them self a permanent Nazarite had slightly different laws apply.

Agreed, but still the grape is the only named fruit that is forbidden anywhere in Scripture.

 

[Magenta]

Agreed, but still the grape is the only named fruit that is forbidden anywhere in Scripture.

Its link to blood is interesting,* the link being Jesus' blood being represented by wine. Interesting too is the fact that Jesus' first recorded miracle in John's gospel is the turning of water into wine. The water had been set aside for ritual purification. Now six stone water jars had been set there for the Jewish rites of purification. Each could hold from twenty to thirty gallons. The location of the first recorded miracle being at a wedding feast is interesting too Wedding feasts hold a prominent place in Scripture, and of course, we are the bride of Christ, though our wedding feast has not yet taken place. *I have included grapes in some of my panels because of this

Now we are purified by faith in His shed righteous blood.

 

[John146]

Its link to blood is interesting,* the link being Jesus' blood being represented by wine. Interesting too is the fact that Jesus' first recorded miracle in John's gospel is the turning of water into wine. The water had been set aside for ritual purification. Now six stone water jars had been set there for the Jewish rites of purification. Each could hold from twenty to thirty gallons. The location of the first recorded miracle being at a wedding feast is interesting too Wedding feasts hold a prominent place in Scripture, and of course, we are the bride of Christ, though our wedding feast has not yet taken place. *I have included grapes in some of my panels because of this

Now we are purified by faith in His shed righteous blood.

And Moses' first public miracle was turning water into....blood, a type of wine.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Adam and Eve were seen as good, and then very good during
the process of creation... not perfect. We are perfected in Christ.

It seems redundant to have human nature, and sinful nature, as
separate in your list, since human nature is inherently sinful.

I hear you. I would say that the Human Nature is vastly different from the Sinful Nature, for Colossians 2:9-15 does say that Christ Circumcises the heart of the Human Nature, but the Sinful Nature. For even Jesus had his own Human Nature, and it seems fair to say that we would all agree that the Human Nature of Christ was not sinful or corrupt in any way. It was the Human Nature of Christ that “served” Himself to the Cross; that He would serve the Lord in death, burial, and Resurrection.

Acts 3:13 NKJV - "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.”

When Paul wrote about the weakness of the Human Nature, I believe that what he meant is that it is unbridled, that it will serve anything, including the Devil.

As Peter outlined in 2 Pet 1:4, he states that we are given the Divine Nature. This wouldn’t replace the Human Nature, for the Human Nature remains, for it is what lends to our service to the Holy Spirit. It would seem that we, again, never lose this Human Nature.

Romans 6:19 NLT – “Because of the weakness of your human nature, I am using the illustration of slavery to help you understand all this. Previously, you let yourselves be slaves to impurity and lawlessness, which led ever deeper into sin. Now you must give yourselves to be slaves to righteous living so that you will become holy.”

Service seems to equate to the Human Nature, and it is that Human Nature that remains and after the Divine Nature is given, the Human Nature kicks in a begins to serve.

I don’t mean to offend . . . this is just what makes sense to me, and have thus concluded that the Human Nature serves . . . nothing more, nothing less. But it is because it will serve the Devil or Christ that makes it “weak.” By itself, the Human will serve anything, which is why it needs the Divine Nature, so that that we will serve the Lord instead of the Devil.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

@Magenta

I'm sorry.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This is a fascinating read, and it feels right in my heart. Thank you very much!

Yep, you're welcome. = )


As the commentary linked in my Post #10 had said (of the disobedient in Noah's day)... "are now the spirits in prison" (with the "preaching" having been done back in Noah's day... the Word of God "preached" via Noah):


[quoting the last paragraph from the link I placed in Post #10]


"So was He present by His Spirit in the days of Noah. It is written: “My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years” (Genesis 6:3). His Spirit was then on the earth. In long-suffering God was waiting for one hundred and twenty years while the ark was preparing. His Spirit preached then. But He needed an instrument. The instrument was Noah; in him was the Spirit of Christ and as the preacher of righteousness (2Peter 2:5) he delivered the warning message of an impending judgment to those about him, who did not heed the message, passed on in disobedience, were swept away by the deluge and are now the spirits in prison. As the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets (1Peter 1:11) testifying beforehand of the suffering of Christ and the glory that should follow, so the Spirit of Christ preached through Noah. This is the meaning of this passage, and any other is faulty and unscriptural."

-- https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/1_peter/3.htm - Gaebelein (Bible Hub)


[end quoting; bold and underline mine]

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Yep, you're welcome. = )


As the commentary linked in my Post #10 had said (of the disobedient in Noah's day)... "are now the spirits in prison" (with the "preaching" having been done back in Noah's day... the Word of God "preached" via Noah):


[quoting the last paragraph from the link I placed in Post #10]


"So was He present by His Spirit in the days of Noah. It is written: “My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years” (Genesis 6:3). His Spirit was then on the earth. In long-suffering God was waiting for one hundred and twenty years while the ark was preparing. His Spirit preached then. But He needed an instrument. The instrument was Noah; in him was the Spirit of Christ and as the preacher of righteousness (2Peter 2:5) he delivered the warning message of an impending judgment to those about him, who did not heed the message, passed on in disobedience, were swept away by the deluge and are now the spirits in prison. As the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets (1Peter 1:11) testifying beforehand of the suffering of Christ and the glory that should follow, so the Spirit of Christ preached through Noah. This is the meaning of this passage, and any other is faulty and unscriptural."

-- https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/1_peter/3.htm - Gaebelein (Bible Hub)


[end quoting; bold and underline mine]

Thank you, DW. We've been covering so much, I'm admittedly a bit overwhelmed and am not sure how to handle it. I've got so much written documentation, even video, it's just discouraging to realize that so much that I've written must be re-written. It's tough to swallow, but I have to do it.

Gulp

 

[cv5]

Yep, you're welcome. = )


As the commentary linked in my Post #10 had said (of the disobedient in Noah's day)... "are now the spirits in prison" (with the "preaching" having been done back in Noah's day... the Word of God "preached" via Noah):


[quoting the last paragraph from the link I placed in Post #10]


"So was He present by His Spirit in the days of Noah. It is written: “My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years” (Genesis 6:3). His Spirit was then on the earth. In long-suffering God was waiting for one hundred and twenty years while the ark was preparing. His Spirit preached then. But He needed an instrument. The instrument was Noah; in him was the Spirit of Christ and as the preacher of righteousness (2Peter 2:5) he delivered the warning message of an impending judgment to those about him, who did not heed the message, passed on in disobedience, were swept away by the deluge and are now the spirits in prison. As the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets (1Peter 1:11) testifying beforehand of the suffering of Christ and the glory that should follow, so the Spirit of Christ preached through Noah. This is the meaning of this passage, and any other is faulty and unscriptural."

-- https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/1_peter/3.htm - Gaebelein (Bible Hub)


[end quoting; bold and underline mine]

I definitely disagree with Gaebelein here. Why? A few reasons. I could post many more.

1) the term "preach" is 2784 kērýssō – properly, to herald (proclaim)
rather than 2784 euaggelizó

2) The passage is an exhortation to persevere under persecution triumphantly, as Christ did, Who consequently
announced His victory to spirits who are in prison.

3) ONLY those spirits (now in prison) in Noahs day are referenced. Not any others. Despite the fact that disobedient men
have always existed, certainly all the way to the cross, and beyond.

4) "...nowhere in Scripture are the souls of men ever said to be imprisoned. But these spirits are imprisoned.
Phulaké is the term and it is not, now listen carefully, it is not a condition, it is a location. It refers to an actual
location, not some condition of being imprisoned in sin. It is a place. "

5) v.22 makes the point of "angels, authorities, and powers" now being subject to Him.

 

[cv5]

Incidentally.....as regards 1Pet 3:21 "baptism"

1) Now tonight we come to the third area in which our Lord triumphed, and we'll call that a triumphant salvation, a triumphant salvation. As Peter was mentioning the time of Noah in verse 20, the time in which those demons were disobedient and committed their great perversion, as he is mentioning Noah, apparently it reminds him about the ark. And as it reminds him about the ark, he moves to discuss the ark and the safety of Noah's family during the flood. Look at verse 20. It says regarding those demon spirits, they were disobedient during the time of Noah. And then he goes on, "During the construction of the ark in which a few, that is eight persons, were brought safely through the water." Having been reminded of Noah, Peter moves into the next dimension of Christ's triumph by following up the story of Noah as an analogy to the triumphant salvation Christ has provided.

2) You remember the story. Noah had three sons and they had three wives. Noah and his wife and his three sons and their wives all were spared in the flood. The flood came and drowned the entire world, except for eight people. The reason? Only eight people believed. Only eight people on the face of the earth believed.

That is quite remarkable because in 2 Peter 2:5 Peter says that Noah was a preacher. He was a preacher of righteousness. And he preached the message of righteousness for a long, long time. In fact, he preached the message the whole time he was building the ark. And it took him 120 years to build the ark, which was approximately the size of the Queen Mary. He was only in the ark a little over one year.

 

[cv5]

3) Now imagine this, preaching for 120 years about the coming judgment of God and giving a massive object lesson about it as the ark was being built, and at the end of those 120 years having no converts outside your family. But for those eight who believed, the ark was the means of their deliverance from judgment. As long as they were in it, they were safe. And you remember when the flood came the ark floated and those eight souls among all the human beings on the face of the earth were alone saved. We might say that the ark carried them from a world of wickedness and iniquity into a brand new life. In fact, they passed through judgment by being in that ark. They were not touched. They went through the judgment. The rain was above them and the flood was below them. They were in the middle of the judgment but they were untouched in the safety of that ark. For Peter, that is a picture of salvation.

Notice verse 21, "And corresponding to that." Stop right there. He sees that as an analogy, corresponding to that, resembling that. This is antitupon, an antitype, a pattern. That term used in the New Testament basically has the idea of an earthly expression of a heavenly reality. It is a symbol or a picture or a pattern or an analogy of some spiritual truth. So in some way, the fact that eight people were in an ark and went through the whole judgment and yet were untouched is analogous to the Christian experience in salvation.

Now somebody will say, "Okay, what is the antitupon? What is the antitype? Is it the ark or is it the water?" And I think the answer is it's the whole thing. It's the whole thing. If you want to emphasize the water, you can since water is neuter and so is antitupon. But the real idea here is the whole idea that just as these people in the ark went through the waters of judgment, so the believer is carried safely through judgment, the judgment of God. And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you. Now if were to change that word "baptism" and say "immersion now saves you," we'd begin to move toward the meaning here.

 

[cv5]

4) Now let me say something at the outset. I don't think he's talking about water baptism because water baptism doesn't save you. I don't think he's talking about water baptism symbolically. I think he's talking about immersion into an ark of safety that went through judgment. Now follow the thought. He is saying, just like Noah was placed with his sons and their wives in an ark of safety and they went through the judgment, they didn't miss it, they didn't really escape it, they were preserved in it, so you have been immersed in some kind of protective ark that has taken you through judgment. They were put into the waters of judgment. The waters of judgment fell down on the top of them but they were incarcerated in a haven of safety. And he is saying we as believers are put into the great waters of judgment and we too are incarcerated in a haven of safety.

 

[cv5]

5) Now, what baptism is he talking about? What haven of safety? Please read further in verse 21. "Not the removal of dirt from the flesh." He's not talking about baptism as water baptism; he's not talking about some ritual. That's not what he's talking about. He's talking about an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. You'll notice you probably have some dashes in that sentence. It should read like this if you leave out that qualifying statement in the middle, "and corresponding to that, baptism now saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." The other statements are qualifiers. It is a baptism that saves you. What baptism? Baptism into the death and resurrection of Christ. That's the issue here. As that flood was a furious judgment of God upon the earth in Genesis, as it killed everybody on the face of the globe and yet eight people lived through, though they were immersed in it they were immersed into an ark of safety. So, the judgment of God came upon Jesus Christ, now follow this, the judgment came upon Jesus Christ and you went through that judgment in Him, but you survived, protected in the ark who is Christ, the ark of safety. And you went into His death, burial, and out again in His resurrection. That's what he's saying here. He says I'm not talking about a water baptism either literally or metaphorically, it is not the removal of dirt from the flesh. I'm talking about you, by faith, coming into union with Christ, undergoing the judgment of God that fell on Christ in His death and burial, and coming out the other side in the glory of His resurrection; thus you too have been carried through the judgment of God and out the other side by being incarcerated, as it were, in Christ, the ark of safety.

 

[cv5]

6) And the eight in Genesis left the world of sin and they came through a flood of judgment. So you have left the world of sin and you came through a flood of judgment. As the ark, in a sense, was a tomb and there was a certain kind of dying to the world as they entered it and sealed it shut, and there was a certain kind of resurrection, that day when it stopped on Mount Ararat and they opened the door and walked out. They walked out to a new life in a new world. So, says Peter, is the majesty of the analogy, as you by faith entered into the ark of safety in Christ, you entered into a coffin of sorts because you died in Him and one day it was open and you burst out in His resurrection and you live a new life. That's the kind of immersion he's talking about. Yes, it is depicted in water baptism. We understand that. Peter is not particularly talking about that, that's why he says explicitly, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh." Water baptism is another issue. He is speaking about this wonderful immersion into Christ. And Peter is certainly in wonderful harmony with Paul, isn't he? Romans 6, where Paul talks about being buried with Christ in His death and then rising in His resurrection to walk in newness of life, it's the same idea.

One commentator, Alan Stibbs, writes, "The ark passing safely through the flood provides a figure of God's method of saving men out inevitable judgment. First, God delayed the Day of Judgment long enough for an ark to be prepared. Then the souls that went into the ark did not avoid the judgment, rather in the ark they were saved through the very water which drowned others and because of it they thus passed out of the old world into a new world. When they emerged from the ark, they literally found that old things had passed away and all things had become new. The figure," he writes, "is fulfilled in Christ. He was prepared of God to come in the fullness of time. The judgment due to sin and sinners was meanwhile delayed. Then the judgment fell on Him as the flood waters upon the ark. When sinners take refuge in Him, they do not avoid the judgment due to sin, they are saved through its falling on Christ and because of it instead of meeting their own doom they are brought safe in Him to God." Marvelous analogy, marvelous, rich analogy.

 

[cv5]

7) Peter makes it clear in that qualifying statement when he says, "Not the removal of dirt from the flesh," we're not talking about some external rite, "but an appeal to God for a good conscience." What are you talking about? What does this mean? Well the word "appeal" is the word that is used as a technical term for making a contract. It is a technical term for making a pledge, agreeing to certain conditions or demands of a covenant. This is a very important statement. Here it says that what places you into the ark of safety is a covenant or a pledge or a contract or an agreement to certain conditions in regard to God. That's what he's saying.