Cessation of Gifts
- Thread starter DavidTree
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One problem is that tongue speakers tend to push the idea that if you do not speak in tongues you are not saved or are less of a Christian.
Both of which are lies wrought by the enemy to muddy the waters.
I believe Paul wrote 1 Cor 14 specifically to address what goes on in many Pentecostal/charismatic churches. Time and place are important people, time and place.
Which is why debate over the gifts is a very slippery slope!
Paul also said that even tho tongues is the only gift he wishes we all would do, he'd rather we NOT do it at all than do it wrong!
"tongues speakers do not push the idea if you do not speak in tongues you are not saved or less than a Christian. That comment is one of ignorance. UPC and apostolic believe and teach you are not saved if you do not speak in tongues.
Please if you are going to stereo type those who speak in tongues have the context strait.
It was Jesus who said you will receive power after the Holy Spirit comes upon you to be a witness in Acts 1:8.
This statement is not about having the Holy Spirit in you but coming upon you to enable you to do something. Not everyone has experienced that yet it is not saying you are sub-Christian. That to is a false narrative created by those who make up foolishness to discredit their own lack of action or obedience.
S
SophieT
Guest
peachy...you state you are not a Christian, so what exactly are you trying to say with the statement that a person cannot show or prove which church is the true church that Jesus started?
perhaps you should understand that the church is actually a spiritual reality and that would be the body of Christ...those who believe in Him and have accepted Him as their High Priest, the one who died for our sins and rose again and lives forevermore.
you may know something of Christ, but if you do not know Him personally, you cannot understand much of what it means to be a follower of Him
I would say even worse for them who deny the words of Jesus as the eternal truth.
Well, of course - was He speaking for the Apostles and the Jews who would believe the Gospel, as in Acts, or was the Lord speaking for ALL Believers and if so for how long of a period of time???
Can't you read? He was speaking to anyone who had ears to hear. Them that believe is them that believe
so I guess he was not speaking to you. That is why the Spirit of the Lord has never given utterance by your tongue.
You do not believe.
The word of God is forever. Why don't you just come out and say I do not want to believe it.
Then you will be in truth.
That is not exactly what Paul said. Paul did not want the Body to abuse the Gift and said, while in the Assembly, not to speak in tongues unless someone interprets.
The Apostle never said we should NOT use the Gift - He said, do NOT abuse the Gift and cause confusion since it is a prayer language that only God and the Angels understand.
R U OK - you seem a bit uptight - i know what Mark 16 says - you seem to be thinking i am against the words of the LORD.
If you believed the words of Jesus
you would not believe anything anyone else ever said that was contrary to it.
Please read the posts on this thread.
Your in attack mode and need to stay focused on the mission = Scripture.
I think those man who pushes these things do not study Bible much. Whatever their Leaders or teachers say they accept it like that. I think its not totally their fault, But its our fault if we become angry with them and don't help them to know the truth. So If anybody pushes you like that, you can just politely ask them if they can show from bible and narrate them according to context and Gods nature. not just picking up verses from here and there like false teachers. (If you dont have self control than you might get angry and can be driven by the spirit of argument. SO be careful.) God bless you brother.
Are the gifts and the power of the Holy Spirit prevalent today? Yeah...but I think they've waned significantly to where the power is only displayed through a relative few, and definitely not through the majority of believers. I don't think it's so much akin to "a switch flipped" (display vs. cessation) as it is akin to "fuel in the tank".
One element often used to represent Holy Spirit in scripture is oil.
In Zechariah 4, he's given a vision of two olive trees with branches connected by pipes feeding the oil to the lampstand in the middle, and we're told that "This [image] is the Word of Yah to Zerubbabel saying, 'not by strength nor by power but by my Spirit'" and then it talks about how The Almighty's temple will be built.
Next, when we read the beginning of Revelation we're given an image of the Messiah standing in the midst of 7 lampstands that we're told represent the seven churches. "Let your light shine before men..."
Heading back to the gospels, recall the parable of the wise and foolish virgins that were all waiting for the groom to arrive. Five were considered foolish because they didn't keep oil in their lamps...and when they tried to borrow some from the wise they were denied because then the wise wouldn't have enough to keep burning their lamps as they waited.
If we put all of this together, knowing what happened at Pentecost, I think we can conclude that when the "oil" was initially distributed to the body of believers the church's light burned brightly at the beginning (i.e. dynamic displays of the power of God through believers to the nations)...but as these past 2000 some odd years have gone by the "oil" has started running low as the church has become more and more worldly and less studied in the Word of Truth; its light dimming as a result (recall the prophesied "falling away" that must occur).
So fewer and fewer believers are actually able to display the power of the Holy Spirit through certain gifts (i.e. healing the sick, raising the dead, casting out demons, speaking in other languages, etc.), while other corrupt shepherds deceive the rest through artificial displays and other nonsense.
What we need is another distribution of oil. The second tree is needed to complete Zechariah's prophetic vision for us today. We need a second outpouring of Holy Spirit.
One element often used to represent Holy Spirit in scripture is oil.
In Zechariah 4, he's given a vision of two olive trees with branches connected by pipes feeding the oil to the lampstand in the middle, and we're told that "This [image] is the Word of Yah to Zerubbabel saying, 'not by strength nor by power but by my Spirit'" and then it talks about how The Almighty's temple will be built.
Next, when we read the beginning of Revelation we're given an image of the Messiah standing in the midst of 7 lampstands that we're told represent the seven churches. "Let your light shine before men..."
Heading back to the gospels, recall the parable of the wise and foolish virgins that were all waiting for the groom to arrive. Five were considered foolish because they didn't keep oil in their lamps...and when they tried to borrow some from the wise they were denied because then the wise wouldn't have enough to keep burning their lamps as they waited.
If we put all of this together, knowing what happened at Pentecost, I think we can conclude that when the "oil" was initially distributed to the body of believers the church's light burned brightly at the beginning (i.e. dynamic displays of the power of God through believers to the nations)...but as these past 2000 some odd years have gone by the "oil" has started running low as the church has become more and more worldly and less studied in the Word of Truth; its light dimming as a result (recall the prophesied "falling away" that must occur).
So fewer and fewer believers are actually able to display the power of the Holy Spirit through certain gifts (i.e. healing the sick, raising the dead, casting out demons, speaking in other languages, etc.), while other corrupt shepherds deceive the rest through artificial displays and other nonsense.
What we need is another distribution of oil. The second tree is needed to complete Zechariah's prophetic vision for us today. We need a second outpouring of Holy Spirit.